Need advice on Baby Sulcata enclosure

[drew54]

Animal care takes priority over human needs right now! Two dozen tortoises and a half dozen green anacondas...one gravid and ready to pop! I'll get there...but once these snakes are born...I'll be a phantom here for awhile! I am, however, fine tuning the care sheet now! Maybe it'll be done soon...and maybe not!

Wouldn't your care sheet technically be a need for animal care and not a human need thus putting the animal care priority over the human need watch snakes hatch? Fine tuning? You mean correcting mistakes? I'm kidding but seriously.

 

[TechnoCheese]

I use a ceramic heat emitter and a flood bulb with absolutely no problems. Curtis’s growth is coming in completely smooth(even when there’s pyramiding at the very top because I didn’t grasp the concept of “closed chamber” when I first joined)and my closed chamber isn’t even as enclosed as I want it to be.

Dean, please keep in mind that there is no one way to keep a tortoise, and people live in very different places with very different situations. While it might work great where you live and how you use it, not everyone is going to be able to replicate your conditions exactly. Saying “don’t bother to warm your soaking water”(on another thread, I believe)could be very dangerous to a new member or browser who is looking for information, and is trying to find out how to soak. I would imagine that spending a lot of time in cold/room temperature water can’t be good for anything. I understand that you meant that they should be soaking outside in warm weather, but I certainly did not grasp that at first, and I doubt a new member or browser would either. Additionally, I’d say the majority of casual keepers(ones with non-reptile related jobs, just one tortoise, etc.) don’t live in a place where they can soak their babies outdoors year round. I live in Texas, and I certainly wouldn’t be able to.

Adamantly saying that lights and CHEs will bake your tortoise when most people use them completely fine would not be helpful to a new member who is likely working on getting everything they can for a new baby that they found out they were caring for incorrectly, who are usually on a budget. A 12x12 inch RHP is 70$ on the place I looked, vs. a 10 dollar CHE that works completely fine for most people. I’m all for saving money when it won’t bring harm to an animal, and I see no reason to buy something 7 times more expensive than something entirely adequate.

There was even a thread where you recommend not keeping water bowls in the enclosure for young tortoises if you’re soaking them daily and have high humidity. However, that could very easily be seen as “tortoises don’t need water” to a new member or browser. Additionally, as stated above, no one is going to care for their tortoises the exact same way, even if they follow your care to a “T”. It could be extremely dangerous to advise things like this. If I saw that when I first joined, I probably would have believed it, and tried removing the water bowl from what I thought was a closed chamber(thought mesh lids were fine).

My point is that, while you are extremely reputable and I absolutely believe these things work or are perfectly fine for you, they usually aren’t for the average casual keeper. No one is going to follow every aspect of your care perfectly, people won’t always live in the same general location of you, and that there is not just one way to raise a tortoise. While I truly do respect the way you care for your tortoises, I really don’t believe that pushing the idea of needing very specific care that needs to be followed down to a “T” for it to work is helpful for new members.

 

[Big Charlie]

I use a ceramic heat emitter and a flood bulb with absolutely no problems. Curtis’s growth is coming in completely smooth(even when there’s pyramiding at the very top because I didn’t grasp the concept of “closed chamber” when I first joined)and my closed chamber isn’t even as enclosed as I want it to be.

Dean, please keep in mind that there is no one way to keep a tortoise, and people live in very different places with very different situations. While it might work great where you live and how you use it, not everyone is going to be able to replicate your conditions exactly. Saying “don’t bother to warm your soaking water”(on another thread, I believe)could be very dangerous to a new member or browser who is looking for information, and is trying to find out how to soak. I would imagine that spending a lot of time in cold/room temperature water can’t be good for anything. I understand that you meant that they should be soaking outside in warm weather, but I certainly did not grasp that at first, and I doubt a new member or browser would either. Additionally, I’d say the majority of casual keepers(ones with non-reptile related jobs, just one tortoise, etc.) don’t live in a place where they can soak their babies outdoors year round. I live in Texas, and I certainly wouldn’t be able to.

Adamantly saying that lights and CHEs will bake your tortoise when most people use them completely fine would not be helpful to a new member who is likely working on getting everything they can for a new baby that they found out they were caring for incorrectly, who are usually on a budget. A 12x12 inch RHP is 70$ on the place I looked, vs. a 10 dollar CHE that works completely fine for most people. I’m all for saving money when it won’t bring harm to an animal, and I see no reason to buy something 7 times more expensive than something entirely adequate.

There was even a thread where you recommend not keeping water bowls in the enclosure for young tortoises if you’re soaking them daily and have high humidity. However, that could very easily be seen as “tortoises don’t need water” to a new member or browser. Additionally, as stated above, no one is going to care for their tortoises the exact same way, even if they follow your care to a “T”. It could be extremely dangerous to advise things like this. If I saw that when I first joined, I probably would have believed it, and tried removing the water bowl from what I thought was a closed chamber(thought mesh lids were fine).

My point is that, while you are extremely reputable and I absolutely believe these things work or are perfectly fine for you, they usually aren’t for the average casual keeper. No one is going to follow every aspect of your care perfectly, people won’t always live in the same general location of you, and that there is not just one way to raise a tortoise. While I truly do respect the way you care for your tortoises, I really don’t believe that pushing the idea of needing very specific care that needs to be followed down to a “T” for it to work is helpful for new members.

Good post!

I didn't see anyone mention the temperature gradients for different parts of the enclosure. I would imagine this would be more difficult to achieve with the larger RHP than a CHE.

 

[DeanS]

Wouldn't your care sheet technically be a need for animal care and not a human need thus putting the animal care priority over the human need watch snakes hatch? Fine tuning? You mean correcting mistakes? I'm kidding but seriously.

Anacondas have live birth! And fine tuning for those who can't handle the blunt truth! So I'm going for PC...unless I decide it's not worth it...then I'll just be on my way! Apparently, the Disciples of Tom (one of my best friends), can't...or don't want to...see the big picture! Fact is...most people shouldn't have sulcatas! So I kinda take a wicked delight in tearing them down...but I'm trying to change!

 

[jsheffield]

Since joining, I've seen lots of newbies asking for advice pounced on by (hopefully) well-meaning members who seem to take some delight in pointing out how little the newbs know and how much they're doing wrong ... often sharing anecdotes or opinion as law or peer-reviewed research.

The tenor and fervor of many of these dogpiles is such that I bet lots of newbies just go elsewhere, missing out on a truly invaluable knowledge base and wonderful people due to a few zealots.

It's their loss, but also ours (TFO's, of which I count myself a part), because new blood is how online communities stay vital, and contribute to learn and grow.

Just my thoughts, YMMV.

Jamie

 

[kazjimmy]

Anacondas have live birth! And fine tuning for those who can't handle the blunt truth! So I'm going for PC...unless I decide it's not worth it...then I'll just be on my way! Apparently, the Disciples of Tom (one of my best friends), can't...or don't want to...see the big picture! Fact is...most people shouldn't have sulcatas! So I kinda take a wicked delight in tearing them down...but I'm trying to change!

You know how much I hate newbie! Especially sulcata newbie. Sulcata is the cutest and cheapest tortoise most ppl can get from all kinds of sources. Lots of Ppl were thinking a ten gallon fish tank with a heat lamp will do all the work and expect their little tortoise act like a puppy. A tortoise care sheet sees not work for most or the newbie cuz they will ask your 100 questions but the next minute they are on their way to petco and bought bunch of useless stuff. Newbie wants to raise their tortoise the way they want to be but not the tortoise needs to be.

 

[SweetGreekTorts]

You know how much I hate newbie! Especially sulcata newbie. Sulcata is the cutest and cheapest tortoise most ppl can get from all kinds of sources. Lots of Ppl were thinking a ten gallon fish tank with a heat lamp will do all the work and expect their little tortoise act like a puppy. A tortoise care sheet sees not work for most or the newbie cuz they will ask your 100 questions but the next minute they are on their way to petco and bought bunch of useless stuff. Newbie wants to raise their tortoise the way they want to be but not the tortoise needs to be.

I have no respect for folks who think they are better than everyone else and have to put others down in the manner that you do. Especially newbie members like yourself who have only been here for a couple of months and now act like you want to run the show.

Guess what, there are a constant flow of newbies who come in here for help and advice because they want to provide the best possible care for their new tortoises. At one point you were a newbie too! We all were! Sulcatas are overbred in this country which is why they are cheaper, plentiful, and a popular first tortoise for those who have developed an interest and want to own one. Nothing you can do about it.

I kindly request that you stop this kind of criticism. In this Forum we help, we don't hate.

 

[DeanS]

You know how much I hate newbie! Especially sulcata newbie. Sulcata is the cutest and cheapest tortoise most ppl can get from all kinds of sources. Lots of Ppl were thinking a ten gallon fish tank with a heat lamp will do all the work and expect their little tortoise act like a puppy. A tortoise care sheet sees not work for most or the newbie cuz they will ask your 100 questions but the next minute they are on their way to petco and bought bunch of useless stuff. Newbie wants to raise their tortoise the way they want to be but not the tortoise needs to be.

Not my point at all! TRUE! I feel most people should not keep them...but it is not for me to judge anyone! We have very knowledgeable people her...some hobbyists...some scholars...some wannabes...and some a little of each! You get great advice about this from one...you get better advice from another about that! It's a HUGE melting pot of experience...as well as trial and error. This is another reason why I haven't moved forward with the care sheet yet! I wanna be sure it's not going to be attacked by some neophyte who has no idea of what they're doing...or by those who are just billigerant and have nothing better to do than tear away at someone else's work!

 

[kazjimmy]

I have no respect for folks who think they are better than everyone else and have to put others down in the manner that you do. Especially newbie members like yourself who have only been here for a couple of months and now act like you want to run the show.

Guess what, there are a constant flow of newbies who come in here for help and advice because they want to provide the best possible care for their new tortoises. At one point you were a newbie too! We all were! Sulcatas are overbred in this country which is why they are cheaper, plentiful, and a popular first tortoise for those who have developed an interest and want to own one. Nothing you can do about it.

I kindly request that you stop this kind of criticism. In this Forum we help, we don't hate.

Opps.... I’m speaking my own opinion, didn’t think I’m better then anyone else. I’m not here to create my fans group. sorry if folks get in to a wrong direction. I ain’t try to run your show. You have hierarchy problem get some help.

I have hundreds reason hate sulcata newbies as I have hundreds reason how much love I have with these species. I face really people every time they get a tortoise from me and spent time to guarding them how to possibly raise a healthily tortoise.

 

[kazjimmy]

Not my point at all! TRUE! I feel most people should not keep them...but it is not for me to judge anyone! We have very knowledgeable people her...some hobbyists...some scholars...some wannabes...and some a little of each! You get great advice about this from one...you get better advice from another about that! It's a HUGE melting pot of experience...as well as trial and error. This is another reason why I haven't moved forward with the care sheet yet! I wanna be sure it's not going to be attacked by some neophyte who has no idea of what they're doing...or by those who are just billigerant and have nothing better to do than tear away at someone else's work!

I have see lots of knowledge people and lots of helpful topic on this forum. I think I’m going to mute myself.

 

[drew54]

Anacondas have live birth! And fine tuning for those who can't handle the blunt truth! So I'm going for PC...unless I decide it's not worth it...then I'll just be on my way! Apparently, the Disciples of Tom (one of my best friends), can't...or don't want to...see the big picture! Fact is...most people shouldn't have sulcatas! So I kinda take a wicked delight in tearing them down...but I'm trying to change!

I do look forward to your care sheet. I'm no expert or anything, but I do know there are different ways to raise an animal some better than others. I've seen many posts where Tom has praised your way of doing things.
I think the most interesting thing is that there are many people on this forum who raise them differently. I've seen the passion from you and many others on this forum. To me that says more about you and the way you raise them than how many people choose to do it your way or someone else's.
I agree many people shouldn't have sulcatas, but I also agree that many people shouldn't breed or sell them too. I also believe many people shouldn't have children, but they do.
When I'm working with a new family 99% of the time the child's behavior is the parents fault because they don't raise their kids the way they should or I get kids who have been abused in every which way by their parents or another family member. My point is I know what it's like to have people take on responsibility of a baby/child whatever then when mess up they expect you to fix it without wanting to take your advice and guidance no matter how much you show them it's better for the child.
So, I don't think you should go anywhere nor do I feel you should fine tune anything to appease anyone. Your love and passion should show through your care sheet. Most people need to be nudged and pushed many times before they consider trying something new.
So, don't let people bring you down or discourage you good sir. Keep posting your results because there are lots of people on here that really look forward to them and your care sheet.
As for your andacondas...i couldn't imagine having one or the amount of room one would need. And babies! My god sir, that's inane. You got my respect a long time ago, but damn I think it just went to a different level.
Anyway, I think what you're doing is great and it shows.

 

[SweetGreekTorts]

I have see lots of knowledge people and lots of helpful topic on this forum. I think I’m going to mute myself.

I do hope that you will not mute yourself. We're all here to help each other, to give advice, to share experiences, and to ask for help when we ourselves need it. And we all have something different to offer. We help each other more by lifting each other up instead of tearing each other down. I look forward to your positive suggestions and insight on this Forum. The advice you can offer means the world to any newbie who is wanting to do things right.

 

[Yvonne G]

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[drew54]

You know how much I hate newbie! Especially sulcata newbie. Sulcata is the cutest and cheapest tortoise most ppl can get from all kinds of sources. Lots of Ppl were thinking a ten gallon fish tank with a heat lamp will do all the work and expect their little tortoise act like a puppy. A tortoise care sheet sees not work for most or the newbie cuz they will ask your 100 questions but the next minute they are on their way to petco and bought bunch of useless stuff. Newbie wants to raise their tortoise the way they want to be but not the tortoise needs to be.

I expected to get a rise out of Dean as I was just picking on him. He doesn't know me which makes it interesting and more enjoyable. However, your post makes me wonder what the experts thought about you when you first started.

I'm sure you made mistakes. I'm sure you bought the wrong things as you rushed to the pet store. I'm sure have had sick torts and asked a bunch of questions. I'm sure you asked a bunch of questions in general. You still do. My point is never forget where you came from. Everyone, was a "newb" at one point in their life in everything. We can't learn and progress if we don't make mistakes and ask lots of questions.

kid prodigies ask questions throughout their life always looking to improve and not repeat the same errors, but it happens.
Many times I get frustrated with parents who neglect and or abuse their children out of ignorance because there isn't a manual or manuals to choose from to teach you how to deal with every as situation as a parent. The problem with the tortoise world is that there is so so much conflicting information that it overwhelms us "newbies".

Hell, I've poured and poured through information on here and over the web in general. When there are twenty people telling you twenty different ways and their way is the best, no matter pictures and their evidence, we don't know what is right and what is wrong so we ask millions of questions make mistakes lots of them until we learn and are convinced we are giving our tort the best life we can.

Many people don't think I should own a sulcata simply because of my location. My climate is rather unstable for the most part. Winters are frozen and summers are hot and very humid. Summers can get in the low 70s sometimes and rains a lot. But a sulcata is a tropical species and there isn't any tropical areas out west that I know of. Mostly arid and desert climate. Granted the tortoises are able to have more sunshine than a tortoise in the east. Many countries aren't suitable for most animals even the ones native to the land, but people find ways to make it work so that their animals can have the best care and lives they can while the owners get to enjoy having them.

I would love to be able to do things dean's way but it's not practical nor is it realistic in my environment. I can't keep an open top with no heating element during cold temps because the temps drop and the humidity lowers, so I have to cover the enclosure to keep the right and stable environment for my hatchling. Which just so happens to be Toms way. I'm sure I'll run into lots of issues during the summer also, but I will get help and figure it out. When my tortoise becomes of size to live outside I will have all the necessary enclosure and everything that goes with it to make my little dude feel as natural as I'm capable of. In many people's eyes that's not good enough, but it's not any different keeping a child in Alaska or cold Russia, or the hot temps in Africa. Or animals in general kept in artificial environments or fish for that matter. If it wasn't for technology and brilliant and dedicated minds (there were and are a lot of newbs making all this possible) I doubt we could have the opportunities to own and care for exotic animals.

When you tear down a person for not doing something right or the way you would do it do you think they are going to learn or even want to get advice or help from you again? Do you think that, being passionate and having a great love for the animal as you claim, it benefits the animal in anyway? Most likely that person will stop asking for help all together and make poor decisions based on a heated response from the person whom they sought out help from.

So, relax and stop hating the "newbs" as you are a "newb" in many areas of life. We can all learn from each other and help each other. Just because someone isn't fully or well educated on a subject that doesn't mean they can't learn or they can't contribute anything.

 

[Emily Contreras]

I use a ceramic heat emitter and a flood bulb with absolutely no problems. Curtis’s growth is coming in completely smooth(even when there’s pyramiding at the very top because I didn’t grasp the concept of “closed chamber” when I first joined)and my closed chamber isn’t even as enclosed as I want it to be.

Dean, please keep in mind that there is no one way to keep a tortoise, and people live in very different places with very different situations. While it might work great where you live and how you use it, not everyone is going to be able to replicate your conditions exactly. Saying “don’t bother to warm your soaking water”(on another thread, I believe)could be very dangerous to a new member or browser who is looking for information, and is trying to find out how to soak. I would imagine that spending a lot of time in cold/room temperature water can’t be good for anything. I understand that you meant that they should be soaking outside in warm weather, but I certainly did not grasp that at first, and I doubt a new member or browser would either. Additionally, I’d say the majority of casual keepers(ones with non-reptile related jobs, just one tortoise, etc.) don’t live in a place where they can soak their babies outdoors year round. I live in Texas, and I certainly wouldn’t be able to.

Adamantly saying that lights and CHEs will bake your tortoise when most people use them completely fine would not be helpful to a new member who is likely working on getting everything they can for a new baby that they found out they were caring for incorrectly, who are usually on a budget. A 12x12 inch RHP is 70$ on the place I looked, vs. a 10 dollar CHE that works completely fine for most people. I’m all for saving money when it won’t bring harm to an animal, and I see no reason to buy something 7 times more expensive than something entirely adequate.

There was even a thread where you recommend not keeping water bowls in the enclosure for young tortoises if you’re soaking them daily and have high humidity. However, that could very easily be seen as “tortoises don’t need water” to a new member or browser. Additionally, as stated above, no one is going to care for their tortoises the exact same way, even if they follow your care to a “T”. It could be extremely dangerous to advise things like this. If I saw that when I first joined, I probably would have believed it, and tried removing the water bowl from what I thought was a closed chamber(thought mesh lids were fine).

My point is that, while you are extremely reputable and I absolutely believe these things work or are perfectly fine for you, they usually aren’t for the average casual keeper. No one is going to follow every aspect of your care perfectly, people won’t always live in the same general location of you, and that there is not just one way to raise a tortoise. While I truly do respect the way you care for your tortoises, I really don’t believe that pushing the idea of needing very specific care that needs to be followed down to a “T” for it to work is helpful for new members.

AGREED!