Nails too long?

[pan1k]

Mr. Tibbs is now about 6 months old. He is a pigasaurus when it comes to food, he often wants to eat 3x a day. Is this normal? His claws are getting to be long. Is it from too much calcium? I add the Rep-Cal Phosphorus Free with D3 every other day and then I add half a Maizuri pellet every other day instead of the Rep-Cal. Is there something wrong with his nails?

 

[Laurie]

You can try putting some rocks, slate in his enclosure. As he scrambles over them, he will naturally file his nails down?

 

[CactusVinnie]

He is getting pyramided- change to wild weeds, it's a small tortoise and is not difficult by now. And some rough sandstone slates sound good as well.

 

[Yvonne G]

No, there's nothing wrong with them, but he would benefit from having to walk on a rough surface. The front look ok, but the back are a bit on the long side.

 

[pan1k]

I have slate and some rocks in his tortoise house. I take him to my gf's parents and let him walk around on the cement too..

What are the easiest weeds to find for my tortoise? He gets spring mix now.. am I over doing the Rep-Cal and UVB bulb? I dont want him pyramiding.

 

[CactusVinnie]

No way overdue Calcium and UVB- but D3 can be dangerous. It is already produced in the warmed skin exposed to UVB, and excess can calcify even soft tissues. But I suppose you respect the administration scheme.

Pyramiding results from fast growth lacking Calcium and/or vit D3 to fix it in the bones, this case with collapsed carapace too,severe difformities in time, due to soft, poor density bone layer: Metabolic Bone Disease.

Too rich food that is not "high fiber, high Calcium and low protein"- and carbohydrates, I would add, from sweet fruits or cereals, for instance- promote fast growth of the scutes, even enough Ca and sunlight/UVB/D3 provided. That results in pyramiding only, but not in collapsed carapaces, since the skeleton underneath it's not lacking Calcium. It is not MBD, and only little pyramiding usually. This is your case, more likely.

In Hermanni, it happens even in habitat- maybe from too many snails eaten-> lots of protein, or just very rich vegetation, since they are not living in arid areas, as other tortoises. Of course, never severe cases, just a bit!

Dandelion, cichory, Malva, Hibiscus, mullbery/grapevine leaves etc.

 

[pan1k]

Ok. I only give the calcium every other day. I will look for more high fiber.. I think I can get chicory at the store. I never feed him fruit. Thanks again, I was also wondering about the pyramiding.

 

[GBtortoises]

What temperatures (day, night, basking), light (duration & intensity) and how well hydrated is your tortoise? Does it have constant access to drinking water and/or being soaked frequently? What substrate and how moist or dry is it? What is the ambient air humidity level within the enclosure and what foods are being fed regularly?

 

[CactusVinnie]

GB, I am now convinced that is not about humidity- it is just that slight pyramiding due to fast growth. It looks like that. No MBD, no severe dessication. It looks smooth, not "scorched" and separed. Let me explain what I think and what I observed.

My 2011 hatchlings Ibera and a received Boettgeri were kept quite dry this year, I rather neglected the humidity aspect and we are in a quite bad drought... No pyramiding at all, even if a good amount of growth.
Believe me, I was shocked myself about how dry- bone dry!!- was their hide; I thought it will retain a little more moisture from the scarce waterings I did, but these were only jokes. How much moisture from 3-5 seconds of fine hose-spraying? In 30 minutes is gone! I do that when feeding, they came instantly when feel the scent of wet dust.
Soaking? Maybe twice this year... definitely not my cup of tea... they are sometimes sprayed when feeding time... Access to water and wet food, but that's all. Even the hardy, fibrous Festuca is almost dead from dryness.

The Boettgeri baby was received with what I would call "dry beginning"- because I suppose it was from extreme dessication right after emerging from egg. It is about the initial part of the vertebrals and costals, the hatchling size portion, that is somewhat separated from the rest of the newgrowth, proeminent and, in some parts, a little detachable at the edges!!! Like in Trachemys scales, the ones that fall off! New growth, quite significant, is nice and smooth, although in the same dry condition.
It looks like a severe early dessication of those scutes... maybe the hatchling was quite "on the edge" for that, but he managed to live. That baby was brought from Central Greece by someone. They say he was like that from the beginning, not growing at all in their care. So, I suppose that the causing event was while in the wild, right after hatching.

Did you have similar experience? I will post some pictures tomorrow, descriptions are poor.

 

[GBtortoises]

I disagree, it's been proven time and time again recently that smooth tortoise growth is very much about humidity! This may not be the case in the wild where many other environmental factors come in to play to determine every aspect of a tortoises development. But in captivity under controlled conditions it's been proven here in the U.S. by many keepers that humidity plays a very important role in development. I realize that many European keepers, fueled by Andy Highfield, still stick to the belief that humidity has nothing to do with smooth growth. I've seen Andy's photos of humidity readings taken in the field. Similar conditions may also be replicated when kept outdoors in captivity. But when kept indoors, as many people do, environmental conditions are different.

Pyramiding is just that-pyramiding, that's what it looks like if allowed to progress. On the other hand, accelerated growth shows growth ridges at the edges of the carapace scutes with a flat, almost smooth center. The plastral seams are usually very pronounced and obvious, often times the edges of the shell, usually in the rear and above the head are curled upward, slightly in mild cases, very obviously in serious cases. The nails grow very elongated and narrow and are typically translucent for 2/3 of their length. In more severe cases the beak is usually grown thick, sometime overgrown and other hard scales on the soft body parts appear larger than they should in comparison to the tortoises acutaly size. In developed cases the tortoises body appears "too small" for the shell that it is in. All of these are signs of accelerated growth which can happen from a combination of several factors including: Excessive, constant heat; lack of adequate humidity & hydration; excessive use of supplemental vitamins; a diet to high in protein and lack of adequate activity space.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Yeah... it is maybe about shell growth in outdoor vs indoor conditions- but it still remains the obvious truth: VERY dry here in captive conditions now, quite dry in all Iberoids areal and all the Graeca complex- no pyramiding. Even if some Graeca taxons occur in wetter areas, these are exceptions.
OTOH, we have even natural pyramiding in the only non-arid Testudo areal- Hermanni taxons.

I prize the knowledge of Mr. Highfield, but that is not fueling none of my opinions- simply because his conclusions could not apply in my conditions. Yet, it happens to concur. Pyramiding seems to not appear in my dry conditions, even at that delicate age, when they are so prone to get deformed in quite a short time. And I feel that I kinda neglected them too much regarding moisture. Yet... they are ok!

Maybe that spot-produced heat makes a difference... indeed, I cannot recall a bad pyramiding case shown by an outdoor keeper, be it beginner or experienced, regardless of species.

So, I withdraw from the debate on humidity- I do not keep indoor animals that long to notice something about pyramiding. It is a field where I have no knowledge, and I do not intend to have- I will always consider that indoor tortoise keeping is an insult to chelonians... and it's fueled by pet industry. Not too many, in fact, only very skilled keepers, manage to raise nice-shaped tortoises indoors- but the bulk of keepers do not.

 

[pan1k]

What temperatures (day, night, basking), light (duration & intensity) and how well hydrated is your tortoise? Does it have constant access to drinking water and/or being soaked frequently? What substrate and how moist or dry is it? What is the ambient air humidity level within the enclosure and what foods are being fed regularly?

I soak everyday. Maintain a basking area of at least 95F. His hidey house is around 75 and the middle of the tortoise house is about 85. Night time temperatures vary, from around 65-80 degrees. I use a mixture of cypress and jungle mix, and try to mist the enclosure daily. Humidity is low, I am trying to figure out how to keep it up. I feed him grape leaves, spring mix, dandelion leaves and once in ahwile a half pellet of Mazuri.

 

[GBtortoises]

The night time temperatures are much too hot!. Along with that, if the humidity level is too low, this is a catalyst for accelerated growth, the beginning of which can be seen in your tortoise's appearance. Hermann's tortoises, as well as other Northern Mediterranean species should have at least a 15-20 degree temperature differential from day to night. 65 degrees is the absolute warmest that it should at night on a regular basis. A more suitable range would be from the low 50's to low 60's at night with around 60 be ideal. Correct humidity levels are absolutely crucial for the correct development and overall good health of young Hermann's. It sounds as though your tortoises diet needs to be expanded also. By feeding a constant variety of quality foods it exposes the tortoise to a multitude of vitamins, minerals and other nutrional needs, including some protein and lots of fiber. Both of which are required for growing tortoises. Grape leaves and dandelion can be a part of that varied diet. Spring mix is an "ok" filler food but most are made composed mainly of different lettuces. Generally most lettuces are very high in water content and low in most nutrients. The good quality food possibilities are almost endless with such choices as: dandelion, broad & narrow leaf plantain, chicory, sow thistle, lambsquarter, crown vetch, clovers as well as a multitude of flowers. Grocery store greens can include: dandelion, endive, escarole, kale, romaine, chicory, beet greens, mustard greens, turnip greens, collard greens, carrot tops, spinach and occasionally lettuces and more. As well as vegetables: carrot, peas, green & yellow beans, sweet potato, pumpkin, squashes and more. The food choices are nearly endless.

 

[pan1k]

I went to the store last night and got Escarole. It's hard to maintain low temps here, my apartment is upstairs. I cut out the Rep-Cal for a bit. I figure once he gets older I can supplement once a week. Does that sound about right? Should I add cuttlebone for him yet? I want Mr. Tibbs to grow up healthy. I try to get dandelion leafs but it requires me to go shopping on sunday at the farmers market, I'm not always in town on the weekends but I do try.

I was thinking of getting a clip on fan to help with the circulation in his tortoise house. What do you think of that? The humidity is an issue for me, I have to keep misting the substrate.

 

[GBtortoises]

I went to the store last night and got Escarole. It's hard to maintain low temps here, my apartment is upstairs. I cut out the Rep-Cal for a bit. I figure once he gets older I can supplement once a week. Does that sound about right? Should I add cuttlebone for him yet? I want Mr. Tibbs to grow up healthy. I try to get dandelion leafs but it requires me to go shopping on sunday at the farmers market, I'm not always in town on the weekends but I do try.

I was thinking of getting a clip on fan to help with the circulation in his tortoise house. What do you think of that? The humidity is an issue for me, I have to keep misting the substrate.

Your tortoise should always have a source of calcium available. Most smaller Hermanns will consume calcium carbonate powder as they need to. This is preferred rather than coating their food with it constantly, essentially forcing them to consume it when they may not need to. If the powder is kept in a small, shallow dish in the enclosure 24/7 they will consume it as needed. Some will eat it every day, some very infrequently, it is very dependent upon the individual and their needs at different phases of growth and development. Cuttlebone can be used in addition to the powder but most Hermann's under 4" have a difficult time biting into cuttlebone, even in small pieces.
No weeds growing outside?
The substrate should be kept somewhat moist (not wet). This is very important for smooth growth and good hydration. Mine get sprayed at least twice daily to help keep the substrate moist.

 

[pan1k]

Ok, I like this idea. I'll keep a little of the powder around for him. I'm going to change to an all cypress substrate this month and see how that works for the humidity. Thanks for all of the information!!

 

[LongislandPhan]

RE: Nails too long?

Cuttlefish bone is a great way to give torts calcium and keep their beaks trim. Other then that i have a bunch of flat rocks in my enclosure to keep nails short, and i feed them on a flat rock.