My recommendation on substrate stratification

[DoctorCosmonaut]

This is about how I have my substrate set up (thanks to other ideas), and it has worked out really nice for me. It is set up so you can plant plants direclt into it to have the proper drainage, or just to ensure that water doesn't seep down and sit on the bottom of the enclosure. I highly recommend this setup.

I decided to draw a drawing (not to scale) to explain it best:

---

PS I don't know why I made the walls ugly orange colors, but anyways that is a hide and the walls in this cross-section

 

[matt41gb]

This is about how I have my substrate set up (thanks to other ideas), and it has worked out really nice for me. It is set up so you can plant plants direclt into it to have the proper drainage, or just to ensure that water doesn't seep down and sit on the bottom of the enclosure. I highly recommend this setup.

I decided to draw a drawing (not to scale) to explain it best:

---

PS I don't know why I made the walls ugly orange colors, but anyways that is a hide and the walls in this cross-section

---

Very cool! I like the illustration. Is sphagnum moss a good soil for plants, or do you have to keep the root ball contained in a pot? I would think you would have to throw potting soil in the mix somewhere.

-Matt

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

No the sphagnum moss is for in/around the hide to keep it moist and it acts like a blanket for the tortoises to burrow into/cover themselves with. The eco earth/dirt layer (can consist of organic fertilizer free soil or eco earth coconut fiber) is fine for plants to grow in. Our you can submerge the plants pot into the eco/earth layer for stability and so that it is easier to remove.

 

[matt41gb]

Very cool! I think the drainage aspect gets ignored a lot.

 

[terryo]

That was great Jordan, and I'm going to try it in the Spring when I re-do Pio's enclosure. Every Spring and Fall when I do big cleaning for the enclosures the bottom is always a little muddy. The lava rock isn't heavy so that's another good thing. Are the hydro balls the same as the one's I use for the Bio filter in the pond?
I just bury the plants with their pots right in the soil.

 

[-ryan-]

Just to put this out there as well, I have noticed that whenever I use dirt, the drainage problems are related to how much dirt I use. When I use only a few inches (for smaller enclosures) if I keep pouring dirt in to keep it moist, I usually end up with some mud at the bottom, but in my russian enclosure where it is 9" deep there is no mud whatsoever at the bottom. I think that the water is distributed better when there is higher quantity of dirt. This doesn't hold true for coconut coir though. I have dug through that in my tree frog enclosure and found puddles even when the top was dry.

We have a plant vivarium (no animals) and we used a similar stratification method for that, but I have never used it with the animals. I know my animals too well, and I know that I would end up with a mixture of everything instead of separate layers!

 

[Madkins007]

That is a modified Bioactive Substrate idea as pioneered by Phillipe de Vosjoli, and is a great idea for snakes and such. It did not work for me- medium-sized Red-foots compacted the middle layers too much and broke up the drainage and evaporative elements.

Because of this and the size of the habitat I am running, I am going to pure cypress mulch next time.

I do wonder if there is something we can use for the middle layer that would resist the compaction? I tried sand, mosses, and hardwood mulches without success but did not really do it in an organized, scientific way.

Oh, and I think it would work fine for smaller/younger torts.

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

I should give you credit Mark, that must have been you that turned me onto this idea... I didn't remember where or who, but now its coming back to me. I suppose I gave it my own twist?

 

[llamas55]

remember those rubber chips I hated at first (in a huge bag from Menards) because of the strong smell? The smell leaves in about a week.They might make a good middle non compacting layer, as they don't expand or compact, and are irregular sizes, so........ for me, they are on the top to keep the shell from getting rot on it again (altho I will say, 2 pieces came thru her poo last week, the first in 10 weeks or so, and that is a scary concept)

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

Huh? What chips? Please expand or post a link to the product.

 

[Madkins007]

I should give you credit Mark, that must have been you that turned me onto this idea... I didn't remember where or who, but now its coming back to me. I suppose I gave it my own twist?

All of us who read a lot tend to gather ideas from a lot of sources- you may have seen this idea in any of a dozen places and sites. Taking and toying with ideas is also a common, especially with intelligent people. Heck, if you DID get it from me, I got it from some site that got it from Phillipe, and he probably got it from some other source as well.

I had high hopes for this- I laid out the lava rock, put down a soil mix, top dressed it, added worms and rolly polly bugs, and a couple months later, when I dug it up to add the heat strips, I saw NO evidence it was working as I had hoped. The middle layer was packed so hard it came up in big chunks and there was almost no penetration of the water to the lava rock layer. Dang!

 

[llamas55]

I don't have a link, it was just recycled blobs of rubber called "rubber mulch" in the garden section

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

I should give you credit Mark, that must have been you that turned me onto this idea... I didn't remember where or who, but now its coming back to me. I suppose I gave it my own twist?

All of us who read a lot tend to gather ideas from a lot of sources- you may have seen this idea in any of a dozen places and sites. Taking and toying with ideas is also a common, especially with intelligent people. Heck, if you DID get it from me, I got it from some site that got it from Phillipe, and he probably got it from some other source as well.

I had high hopes for this- I laid out the lava rock, put down a soil mix, top dressed it, added worms and rolly polly bugs, and a couple months later, when I dug it up to add the heat strips, I saw NO evidence it was working as I had hoped. The middle layer was packed so hard it came up in big chunks and there was almost no penetration of the water to the lava rock layer. Dang!

It would be interesting to have a plexiglas end on an enclosure with such a setup so you could monitor different set ups

 

[Redfoot NERD]

TerryO had your answers guys.. plant your plants in their own little pot.

If the "substrates" are too wet or show the results of.. don't water so much!

Cypress or a good "hardwood" mulch has proven best for me............ you don't need all of that other stuff do you really?.. why would you?

REMEMBER.. you provide the 'humidity' [ 80% +/- ] from the top.. not the bottom ( the substrate ).

keep it simple

Terry K

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

I'm in trouble for complexity again

 

[Madkins007]

The proven benefits behind the Bioactive Substrate plan, at least for snakes and lizards, is that it 'eats' waste products, allows live plant growth and all of the benefits that provides, offers a healthier microclimate as it inhibits the growth of things like mold spores, etc. When you do it the way Phillipe described it, it also fights the little bugs.

It should also provide a good degree of humidity as the water pools in the lava rocks area and then percolates back up as vapor as it is warmed. After all, humidity does not care if it comes from above or below. It is generated any time water meets energy (usually heat).

Basically, you are making a living, dynamic ecosystem that better simulates the outdoors, instead of just a box of wood chips.

It is not that complicated, either. A layer of something coarse and porous, like lava rock, a thicker layer of soil, and a top layer of some sort of mulch. Innoculate the soil with 'live' garden soil, some worms and rolly pollys or isopods, water it well, and leave it alone. Spot clean, stir or replace the soil (but not the rocks) after about a season, and remove big wastes but stir little wastes back into the soil.

As I've said, if I could solve the problem of the compacted soil layer, I would do it. Perhaps an aggressive colony of worms?

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

I think I'm going to try out earthworms soon... I'll report back in a few days or weeks on how that goes.