MEE Hatching Out!

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tortadise

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emysemys said:
Yes, its a preemy. They usually look (yolk sac-wise) exactly like other tort species. Some have a bit of yolk and some have already absorbed it.

Thats what.i was thinking. Iive hatched quite a vast amount of species and never seen such embryonic hugeness.
 

Jacqui

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:( I came to check out this thread, before PMing to see how the little guy was doing. Sorry it ended this way. Loking to the positive, atleast you have gotten this far and each step is a new lesson. *hugs*
 

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Thanks. It is just the first one that decided to come out a little too early. So hope is still around for the other eggs. I at least know that 2 eggs are very good looking and ready. Just hope they dont come out premi. Whats weird though is that its within the temps and duration of this species from other breeders info. Wonder why this one didn't develop and or came out premi.
 

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Best of luck for the rest of the crew!
 

tortadise

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4 were developed after the premee. But they died in the egg. I disected the others and they were half developed. So it was a failure this year. I was close. I have a different method to try next year, that i think will have a better success.
 

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Congrads Kelly...... Amazing 76 days??? WOW WEEE!!!!!!

JD~:D
 

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It was a really worthy effort. Sorry it didn't work out this year but glad you're planning to try again. Please let us know what changes you're thinking of that might get better results. All the best,
Ron
 

tortadise

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Yep. It was a close close try. I definitely will be doing an egg bath on the eggs. Adding more oxygen to the incubators air percentage. Also have some methods to try with covering the eggs and placement with different substrates/medium.


Im not afraid to steer my failures into a success. We all have to learn somehow. I hope i get good hatch rates in the future for this species.
 

emysbreeder

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tortadise said:
4 were developed after the premee. But they died in the egg. I disected the others and they were half developed. So it was a failure this year. I was close. I have a different method to try next year, that i think will have a better success.

Kelly, Sorry your eggs didnt hatchout this year. Full term embryonic death is very upsetting. Even partly developped death is enough to drive you nuts. I've been hatching them for twenty years and it still happends. There is a hundred things that can go wrong. After all this time its still just the roll of the dice! Here are a few things it could be. (I hope this is not hijacking). If all things are about right they should start to pip at 64 days at 84F+or-2F. Air Humidity 80-90 on slightly damp vermiculite. They take about another 10+ days for them all to hatch. To much H20 near the end will drown them. To much H2O in the beginning will mold them. If a little to dry they might start to cave but you can save them by adding damp Spag. moss on top of the eggs. So, to wet "forget about it' to dry, you get a second chance. I use three temp. insterments, and a AC window unit to stablize room temp. The ones that do it wright cut the egg open in a circle cutting the top half off. Some walk out with the huge beach ball sac (normal size for these guy's). I craidle them in a ball of moss. I take the hatched ones out and set up in slightly damp moss at same or a little less temp. The fumes will kill! i reset the eggs several times as they hatch. LOOK OUT FOR TEENEY WENNY FLYS!!! Killers and another long story. Dont beat yourself up to bad, your day will come. Next lesson...how to open an egg, see where its at in development and put it back to finish UNHARMED. Vic (emysbreeder)
 

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Laura said:
Im surprised at how much sac there is.. I thought there would be more tortoise in the egg at hatching...

me too, i have never seen pictures like this. pretty neat.


tortadise said:
It is starting to worry me a bit that the others are still incubating and this one came out a little earlier. The range is 66-90 days. I had this batch at 81.2-83.4 F and this one came out at 76 days. The sac is kinda sucking up a little but hes getting a little lethargic. I hate to say this but im not sure if this one will make it. Seems to be a premi. I just don't know with this species, I hope he pulls through being the first out.

he has to make it. keeping my fingers crossed. good luck.
 

tortadise

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emysbreeder said:
tortadise said:
4 were developed after the premee. But they died in the egg. I disected the others and they were half developed. So it was a failure this year. I was close. I have a different method to try next year, that i think will have a better success.

Kelly, Sorry your eggs didnt hatchout this year. Full term embryonic death is very upsetting. Even partly developped death is enough to drive you nuts. I've been hatching them for twenty years and it still happends. There is a hundred things that can go wrong. After all this time its still just the roll of the dice! Here are a few things it could be. (I hope this is not hijacking). If all things are about right they should start to pip at 64 days at 84F+or-2F. Air Humidity 80-90 on slightly damp vermiculite. They take about another 10+ days for them all to hatch. To much H20 near the end will drown them. To much H2O in the beginning will mold them. If a little to dry they might start to cave but you can save them by adding damp Spag. moss on top of the eggs. So, to wet "forget about it' to dry, you get a second chance. I use three temp. insterments, and a AC window unit to stablize room temp. The ones that do it wright cut the egg open in a circle cutting the top half off. Some walk out with the huge beach ball sac (normal size for these guy's). I craidle them in a ball of moss. I take the hatched ones out and set up in slightly damp moss at same or a little less temp. The fumes will kill! i reset the eggs several times as they hatch. LOOK OUT FOR TEENEY WENNY FLYS!!! Killers and another long story. Dont beat yourself up to bad, your day will come. Next lesson...how to open an egg, see where its at in development and put it back to finish UNHARMED. Vic (emysbreeder)

Definitely not hijacking at all. I love the input. Especially from such an experienced keeper and breeder of manouria such as yourself. I did get the small flies towards the end. They seemed to penetrate the egg and devour ones that were not fertile or had lack of development. The preemie photoed was removed from that incubator and placed into another one. Later when deceased I did a necropsy on the animal.

In the findings from the lab was 4 bacteria. All were opportunistic and not pathogenic. Which is always good. I am wondering if possible the gut flora bacteria in Manouria is a cause of these bacterias to incubate and help the eggs naturally when time is close to symbiotically "force" the hatchlings to become a survival of the fittest type scenario. I know you have been to their native environments. By chance did you get to do any nest research? Possible soil samples, nesting materials used in wild scenarios. I really want to achieve a higher efficiency of hatching in captive environmental methods. I had a total of 13 developed, 22 fertilized plus the 13 developed and 4 that were not fertilized. Of the 13 they were wayyyy below and lacking full development. 6 were fully developed but an embryonic death and 4 actually came out and were "thriving" for days then deceased.

Bacterias found in lungs and intestinal tract were
Aeromonos, Pseudomonas in high numbers. Obvious signs of needing to do an egg dip, since these bacteria can be transferred through the GI of the mother.
Citrobacter and Alcogenes were low but presented a presence as well. Wondering if these were maybe from the substrate and medium used in the incubator. Pine, needles, sphagnum moss, orchid bark pieces, and vermiculite were all used as incubation substrates. Huge possibility of bacterias turning opportunistic form this concoction I presume.

I would love to know anything you have tried Vic that possibly shows a more natural approach. I have to succeed at this, and I will. But I want to achieve much higher results than typically. What are your fertilization percentages compared to hatch percentages in your animals.

Always a pleasure learning the unknown from the experienced.
 

emysbreeder

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tortadise said:
emysbreeder said:
tortadise said:
4 were developed after the premee. But they died in the egg. I disected the others and they were half developed. So it was a failure this year. I was close. I have a different method to try next year, that i think will have a better success.

Kelly, Sorry your eggs didnt hatchout this year. Full term embryonic death is very upsetting. Even partly developped death is enough to drive you nuts. I've been hatching them for twenty years and it still happends. There is a hundred things that can go wrong. After all this time its still just the roll of the dice! Here are a few things it could be. (I hope this is not hijacking). If all things are about right they should start to pip at 64 days at 84F+or-2F. Air Humidity 80-90 on slightly damp vermiculite. They take about another 10+ days for them all to hatch. To much H20 near the end will drown them. To much H2O in the beginning will mold them. If a little to dry they might start to cave but you can save them by adding damp Spag. moss on top of the eggs. So, to wet "forget about it' to dry, you get a second chance. I use three temp. insterments, and a AC window unit to stablize room temp. The ones that do it wright cut the egg open in a circle cutting the top half off. Some walk out with the huge beach ball sac (normal size for these guy's). I craidle them in a ball of moss. I take the hatched ones out and set up in slightly damp moss at same or a little less temp. The fumes will kill! i reset the eggs several times as they hatch. LOOK OUT FOR TEENEY WENNY FLYS!!! Killers and another long story. Dont beat yourself up to bad, your day will come. Next lesson...how to open an egg, see where its at in development and put it back to finish UNHARMED. Vic (emysbreeder)

Definitely not hijacking at all. I love the input. Especially from such an experienced keeper and breeder of manouria such as yourself. I did get the small flies towards the end. They seemed to penetrate the egg and devour ones that were not fertile or had lack of development. The preemie photoed was removed from that incubator and placed into another one. Later when deceased I did a necropsy on the animal.

In the findings from the lab was 4 bacteria. All were opportunistic and not pathogenic. Which is always good. I am wondering if possible the gut flora bacteria in Manouria is a cause of these bacterias to incubate and help the eggs naturally when time is close to symbiotically "force" the hatchlings to become a survival of the fittest type scenario. I know you have been to their native environments. By chance did you get to do any nest research? Possible soil samples, nesting materials used in wild scenarios. I really want to achieve a higher efficiency of hatching in captive environmental methods. I had a total of 13 developed, 22 fertilized plus the 13 developed and 4 that were not fertilized. Of the 13 they were wayyyy below and lacking full development. 6 were fully developed but an embryonic death and 4 actually came out and were "thriving" for days then deceased.

Bacterias found in lungs and intestinal tract were
Aeromonos, Pseudomonas in high numbers. Obvious signs of needing to do an egg dip, since these bacteria can be transferred through the GI of the mother.
Citrobacter and Alcogenes were low but presented a presence as well. Wondering if these were maybe from the substrate and medium used in the incubator. Pine, needles, sphagnum moss, orchid bark pieces, and vermiculite were all used as incubation substrates. Huge possibility of bacterias turning opportunistic form this concoction I presume.

I would love to know anything you have tried Vic that possibly shows a more natural approach. I have to succeed at this, and I will. But I want to achieve much higher results than typically. What are your fertilization percentages compared to hatch percentages in your animals.

Always a pleasure learning the unknown from the experienced.
Kelly, Thanks for the kind words. Hatching percent has varried all over the place for many years. I've got from less than 10% to 97%. It can be lots of things from the age of the tortoises to diet. There can be a genetic reason. The egg can live from a few seconds to the whole development proccess. One striking thing I learned was when I hatched my first 2nd. generation phayrei. They can produce a big vivable clutch of eggs (38) at 40lbs. BUT! The babies are much smaller and not as fit as the mother was at her birth. My oldest female was an adult when imported 25 years ago. Her eggs/babies are by far the biggest (grow bigger/faster) and continue to be bigger each year than all the others I have. It appears that the prime of their breeding life may well be 40+years old. The future of this species all hangs on the success of the 2nd. generation of captive born animals. Vic
 

tortadise

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Well maybe she will get good at producing in 10 more years or so. Shes around 20 or 25 now. She had 1 egg 8 years ago with a male that set her egg cycle but died as he was an unhealthy import. So technically this is her second lay, but first legitimate lay. 39 eggs were laid. Im wondering if ambient air infiltration plays a key to expediting the bacterial growth of the eggs. None the less i have some different methods to try when she lays again this year. I did add another male with her so maybe possible to get better fertility.


What do you think about keeping substrate rather dry but humidity 100 percent. Do you the eggs need that damp not wet consistency of medium?
 

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I have no clue about anything being said here, but its super interesting, the posts from Vic...Something you said I keep wondering; you said "how to open an egg, check its development, and put it back in to finish UNHARMED"...Am I getting that right? Is it because they're eggs are soft-shelled? I'm sorry this is totally off-topic, thats just making me really curious...
 

RedfootsRule

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tortadise said:
You are correct peter, manouria lay soft shell eggs. Big ones too.

Yeah, I've heard they have soft-shell eggs, but what I mean is how do you cut them open and check on development without harming them? It sounded extremely interesting to me, but I just can't understand how that would be possible...
 
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