Knowledge You May Want to Share

[johnscottroe]

First of all, I'm new to the forum as a member but have monitored it for a few years because, well, I like tortoises and have since I grew up roaming the south Alabama woods looking for gopher tortoises (which down there, they are literally just referred to as "gophers" which caused great confusion when I left home and people insisted to me that gophers were mammals).

Anyway, I've had a female Redfoot for seven years now and quite enjoy her. She's a great tortoise and very interactive. I live just outside of Atlanta, so late fall and winter she has her indoor setup in the basement (made out of a kiddie pool rigged up with the needed equipment). The rest of the year she has her 8x8 outdoor enclosure made from landscaping timbers. It has been and continues to be a good experience with Thumper and she's always been happy (at least to the extent a reptile expresses happiness) and healthy.

What I have always wanted since I was a kid is an Aldabra. Well honestly, what I used to want was a Galapagos but that's not really something you can obtain legally very easily. I do think I'm finally about ready to look at acquiring one. As part of that process I've found it's always good learn about the experiences of others. So I thought I would finally join the forum and see what information I could pry out.

Some opening information about my situation:

Yes I know this is a huge and powerful animal and become that in relatively short order.
My property sits on 2 acres of land.
I'm very comfortable with the husbandry of my red foot which covers a lot of the general tortoise keeping information.
Previously I've kept snakes and lizards and continue to keep fish, so I've had a good deal of experience with different flavors of exotics and managing environmental conditions that are different than northwest Georgia.

However, what I don't have is specific Aldabra experience beyond brief interactions at zoos and admiring them from afar. So I have some questions that maybe go beyond some of the care sheets I've found (mostly on here with this being a bit of a noncommon exotic). I'm certainly interested in hearing what people with experience I don't have would say to these.

1. What does your setup look like? Just based off of what I've seen at zoos what I'm thinking about is something like a 50x50 outdoor enclosed area with one of those sheds like you see at Home depot set up and kept warm in the winter or cool in the summer. In the beginning I would probably create a setup like what my redfoot has, but that's not going to last too long with these guys.

2. What do you think are the key components of a good setup?

3. Red foots do not brumate. My understanding is that Aldabras do. I'm interested to know your experience with this process since I would taking it on for the first time. I'm happy to review links on this subject, but I am primarily interested in personal experiences and personal processes. Honestly this is my biggest concern related to the health of the animal at this time.

4. How do you move them when you need to when they get big? One would hope that is a rare occurrence, but assuming a situation where you had to move the animal (say it was sick or injured or needed to be moved into shelter ahead of a big storm) you may have to move them at some point. The best I could come up with would be using food to coax the tortoise onto a pallet (solid top of course) and using a pallet jack to wheel it around. Even a sub adult does not seem like an easy thing to forcibly move.

5. With the big guys do you typically have a vet come to you? I would suspect it's like having cows or horses and you find a vet to make house calls.

6. One would guess they eat more than a redfoot obviously. What's quantities do you typically provide? What do you specifically provide and where do you find to be the best place to acquire it?

7. Going back in time, what would you have done differently in the beginning with yours?

8. What's something someone may not think about going into the project they should address?

9. What's a good checklist to look for in evaluating a potential Aldabra beyond the standard issues you may look for in a new tortoise?

10. Any red flag breeders/importers to steer clear of? Or to avoid slander are there any things that one should expect to see in a good breeder/importer?

11. Any other personal experience advice you have?

Thanks for any advice provided!

John

 

[wellington]

Aldabras do not brumate. They need heat in winter, around 80 day and night
As a tiny hatchling, they need high humidity and a closed chamber would work for them.
Take a look at Aldabraman threads to see what the size is like.
The best to buy from would be Aldabraman and he is in Florida. A nice trip to buy one and to learn all he can tell you. You won't find one better started than Aldabraman.

 

[johnscottroe]

Aldabras do not brumate. They need heat in winter, around 80 day and night
As a tiny hatchling, they need high humidity and a closed chamber would work for them.
Take a look at Aldabraman threads to see what the size is like.
The best to buy from would be Aldabraman and he is in Florida. A nice trip to buy one and to learn all he can tell you. You won't find one better started than Aldabraman.

Thanks Wellington. On the brumation question, like Forrest Gump said, "Good, that's one less thing".

And that makes sense keeping better humidity control with the indoor enclosure in the beginning with a hatchling.

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. Its great that you are checking on all of this ahead of time.

FIrst 8x8 is too small for a 7 year old RF. The tortoise isn't going to drop dead because the enclosure is too small, but tortoises need way more room than most other reptiles. I keep tortoises that size in 30x30 pens, which brings us to your questions...

1. Zoos are a terrible example of how to house a giant tortoise. Almost all of them are dismal failures and terrible examples. 50x50 is about the minimum size floor heated insulated warehouse you will need to house a single giant tortoise from around October to March in your climate. I've been working in Senoia for about the last three years and have a house there too, so I'm familiar with your climate. This species needs it warm and humid. You are all set for about 6 months of each year, but the other six will require you to build a very large, very expansive facility, or move to South Florida every fall with your tortoise. I've considered moving there with my herd of tortoises, and the climate just isn't suitable for too much of each year. I think you could pull it off in South East GA near the FL border, but you'd still have to deal with those occasional winter cold spells. I left Newnan at 6am one day and it was 33 degrees. The high was supposed to climb to 51. By the time I got to the FL border around noon it was 79 and sunny with intermittent rain. It was in the high 80s by the time I reached Ft. Meyers a few hours later. My point is: Your climate is too cold for any giant tortoise species unless you have enough money laying around to build a giant heated tortoise warehouse for the colder months. You have enough space to make a large adult pen, but 50x50 would only be good for a juvenile for a few years early on. I, along with several others have been studying the needs of giants. We've been paying particular attention to successes and failures and the details that make the difference. One very obvious factor has been enclosure size. Some private keepers like Aldabraman and a few others I've met over the years get an "A+" for enclosure size. The zoos I've been to get a solid "F" for their enclosure sizes. The giants, even more than any other species need room to roam. Lots and lots of room. I recommend least an acre for full sized adults. More space would be better. I know a successful breeder of giants that has several pens that are 5 to 10 acres each with groups of adults living in them. If only you could move your property south!

2. Key components: Large enclosure with lots of trees for shade and elevation changes, solid walls, pasture grasses and weeds to graze on, thermostat controlled insulated night house, shallow pond...

3. Aldabras come from a hot tropical Island in the Seychelles off of Africa. They do not brumate. I wonder where you heard that?

4. A pallet jack isn't going to work on the rough terrain of a tortoise enclosure. There is a $200 Rubbermade cart that works for animals up to around 250 pounds. It tips down and you can easily tip them back up. It has large wheels that can roll over hoses, gopher holes and rocks. You can wheel them right up to their night house. Above 250 pounds and I think you have to get into machinery if you can't convince them to follow your carrot. Like a tractor with a bucket attachment of some sort. Some of them will allow themselves to be gently herded. Some won't.

5. I've seen this done both ways.

6. You need to grow a pasture, or a few of them and rotate through them. You can also grow spineless opuntia cactus, mulberry trees, grape vines and whatever else you like, but grass is the primary diet. Grass hay works if you can't grow grass for some reason. Grass hay pellets too. You feed them much like a horse.

7. Keep them inside more when they are little. The closed chamber is the way to go. The longer you can keep them inside the better and smoother they will grow.

8. Climate. It just isn't going to work in the wrong climate. Not with any giant.

9. Almost no one breeds them, so there isn't much selection out there. I only know of three breeders and one importer. Two of the three breeders don't sell them. One only sells locally in Florida. I wouldn't buy an import, but many people do.

10. See 9.

11. Move to Florida. Get a Galapagos instead. They have much better personalities and they don't have those odd looking pointy noses.

 

[wellington]

I agree with most of what Tom said except the enclosure size part.
Aldabraman has a heard of 11 if not more. I believe his old place had an acre for those 11. One Aldabra does not need that much room as a heard does.
Also any climate will work if you have the means in room and money. There are a handful that I know of doing great in climates that is nothing like Florida's or Georgia's year round.

 

[Tom]

I agree with most of what Tom said except the enclosure size part.
Aldabraman has a heard of 11 if not more. I believe his old place had an acre for those 11. One Aldabra does not need that much room as a heard does.
Also any climate will work if you have the means in room and money. There are a handful that I know of doing great in climates that is nothing like Florida's or Georgia's year round.

What do you base this disagreement on? Other than reading Aldabraman's posts, what experience do you have raising or studying how giants are raised?

Also, where is there an adult Aldabra doing great outside of Florida? I've looked and I have seen one yet. I've seen lots of them surviving, but I've seen none that were thriving as they do in Florida.

 

[wellington]

What do you base this disagreement on? Other than reading Aldabraman's posts, what experience do you have raising or studying how giants are raised?

Also, where is there an adult Aldabra doing great outside of Florida? I've looked and I have seen one yet. I've seen lots of them surviving, but I've seen none that were thriving as they do in Florida.

I don't remember the exact places of all of them. But some were in other countries, I believe Germany, possibly UK. Then there are some in Georgia , Minnesota, Missouri, New York or New Jersey, don't remember which, just to name a few.
What experience do you have with Aldabras?
Yes, Aldabraman is who I have learned a lot from. Years ago, he had a place in the north, I believe it might have been Ohio, that he used as a place to house his Aldabras should he need to because of hurricanes.
Not sure what you see that you say is surviving and not thriving.

 

[Maggie3fan]

What do you base this disagreement on? Other than reading Aldabraman's posts, what experience do you have raising or studying how giants are raised?

Also, where is there an adult Aldabra doing great outside of Florida? I've looked and I have seen one yet. I've seen lots of them surviving, but I've seen none that were thriving as they do in Florida.

My sister kept 2 Aldab's until a couple of years ago...She lives in the hot and dry San Joaquin Valley, her tortoises did pretty well until they got too big for a senior lady....

 

[Yvonne G]

My sister kept 2 Aldab's until a couple of years ago...She lives in the hot and dry San Joaquin Valley, her tortoises did pretty well until they got too big for a senior lady....

. . . and I felt they were 'thriving.'

 

[Tom]

. . . and I felt they were 'thriving.'

I mean you no insult, but if I recall, one of them had a tough time walking? I don't remember the details, but I do remember a pen that was certainly smaller than what I would recommend, and I remember orthopedic problems. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Have you ever seen them living in a large pen in Florida for comparison? I have. They look and behave quite differently than the ones I've seen in CA.

 

[johnscottroe]

Hello and welcome. Its great that you are checking on all of this ahead of time.

FIrst 8x8 is too small for a 7 year old RF. The tortoise isn't going to drop dead because the enclosure is too small, but tortoises need way more room than most other reptiles. I keep tortoises that size in 30x30 pens, which brings us to your questions...

1. Zoos are a terrible example of how to house a giant tortoise. Almost all of them are dismal failures and terrible examples. 50x50 is about the minimum size floor heated insulated warehouse you will need to house a single giant tortoise from around October to March in your climate. I've been working in Senoia for about the last three years and have a house there too, so I'm familiar with your climate. This species needs it warm and humid. You are all set for about 6 months of each year, but the other six will require you to build a very large, very expansive facility, or move to South Florida every fall with your tortoise. I've considered moving there with my herd of tortoises, and the climate just isn't suitable for too much of each year. I think you could pull it off in South East GA near the FL border, but you'd still have to deal with those occasional winter cold spells. I left Newnan at 6am one day and it was 33 degrees. The high was supposed to climb to 51. By the time I got to the FL border around noon it was 79 and sunny with intermittent rain. It was in the high 80s by the time I reached Ft. Meyers a few hours later. My point is: Your climate is too cold for any giant tortoise species unless you have enough money laying around to build a giant heated tortoise warehouse for the colder months. You have enough space to make a large adult pen, but 50x50 would only be good for a juvenile for a few years early on. I, along with several others have been studying the needs of giants. We've been paying particular attention to successes and failures and the details that make the difference. One very obvious factor has been enclosure size. Some private keepers like Aldabraman and a few others I've met over the years get an "A+" for enclosure size. The zoos I've been to get a solid "F" for their enclosure sizes. The giants, even more than any other species need room to roam. Lots and lots of room. I recommend least an acre for full sized adults. More space would be better. I know a successful breeder of giants that has several pens that are 5 to 10 acres each with groups of adults living in them. If only you could move your property south!

2. Key components: Large enclosure with lots of trees for shade and elevation changes, solid walls, pasture grasses and weeds to graze on, thermostat controlled insulated night house, shallow pond...

3. Aldabras come from a hot tropical Island in the Seychelles off of Africa. They do not brumate. I wonder where you heard that?

4. A pallet jack isn't going to work on the rough terrain of a tortoise enclosure. There is a $200 Rubbermade cart that works for animals up to around 250 pounds. It tips down and you can easily tip them back up. It has large wheels that can roll over hoses, gopher holes and rocks. You can wheel them right up to their night house. Above 250 pounds and I think you have to get into machinery if you can't convince them to follow your carrot. Like a tractor with a bucket attachment of some sort. Some of them will allow themselves to be gently herded. Some won't.

5. I've seen this done both ways.

6. You need to grow a pasture, or a few of them and rotate through them. You can also grow spineless opuntia cactus, mulberry trees, grape vines and whatever else you like, but grass is the primary diet. Grass hay works if you can't grow grass for some reason. Grass hay pellets too. You feed them much like a horse.

7. Keep them inside more when they are little. The closed chamber is the way to go. The longer you can keep them inside the better and smoother they will grow.

8. Climate. It just isn't going to work in the wrong climate. Not with any giant.

9. Almost no one breeds them, so there isn't much selection out there. I only know of three breeders and one importer. Two of the three breeders don't sell them. One only sells locally in Florida. I wouldn't buy an import, but many people do.

10. See 9.

11. Move to Florida. Get a Galapagos instead. They have much better personalities and they don't have those odd looking pointy noses.

Thanks Tom. Very thorough information. And like I said I’m very much at the point of reviewing the information provided by people who’ve done something I have not.

Just for clarity sake, the brumation confusion came simply from googling “do aldabra tortoises brumate”. The first 4 or 5 results all threw out hibernation or brumation in the first sentence, so I said well they must shut down in the winter. Obviously the articles were incorrect. I had not researched it beyond that and now I know something new.