keeping up

mark1

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in an effort to "keep up" i looked for some treatments being used by scientist/veterinarians for various chelonian diseases ......... i came across this 2016 article , which i think is worthwhile ....... it was a group of eastern box turtles at the maryland zoo , kept in a 29,000 square foot outdoor enclosure .... there was an outbreak of ranavirus ..... ranavirus is near 100% lethal if untreated , the treated outcome has not been much better ........ the ranavirus was accompanied by herpesvirus and mycoplasmosis infections ..... the drug treatment used for these turtles was pyrantel pamoate , ceftazidime , baytril , and famciclovir .... baytril injectable 2.27% was given at 10 mg/kg i.m. q. 48 hr , was only given to the seriously ill turtles , baytril was not given for more than 30 days due to concerns that accumulative tissue necrosis could develop with longer administration ........ ceftazidime was given to all symptomatic turtles as a prophylactic treatment ..... ceftazidime was given at 20 mg/kg i.m. q. 72 hr for the entire length of treatment ......... famciclovir was given at 10, 20, or 30 mg/kg p.o. s.i.d. , the dosage was based off that used in cats ........ fluid therapy was done for 14 days 0.9% sodium chloride 30 ml/kg s.c. s.i.d. ,after 14 days the fluid was changed to 1 part lactate ringers 2 part 2.5%dextrose 0.45% saline at 30ml/kg s.c. q. 48 hr ........all turtles treated a minimum 34 days , treatment stopped after 3 consecutive days without symptoms .... all surviving turtle brumated normally , and emerged without incidence .....

my takeaway , the turtles were all given a prophylaxis antibiotic .......severely ill turtle were given baytril injections ....... the antiviral dosage was based off cats ...... 4 asymptomatic turtles died , all these asymptomatic turtles tested positive for ranavirus at necropsy ...... 4 severe turtle survived , 4 died ........all mild turtles survived .... one asymptomatic turtle that died had ranavirus , herpevirus and mycoplasmosis ,he had no symptoms to folks who were actively looking for symptoms .....another asymtomatic turtle that died had ranavirus and mycoplasmosis ....... the remaining two asymptomatic turtles that died both tested positive for ranavirus ...

might be worth reading to some.........
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...LASMA-INFECTION-MANAGEMENT-AND-MONITORING.pdf



 

mark1

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My gosh! That's awful. I wonder how they became infected. Just goes to show how contagious these are.
frogs were a possibility, they did find wild frogs in their enclosure on occasion , they also found one not micro chipped adult box turtle, i think they believed it was either someones dumped pet ,or a wild box turtle that got over the wall .... one turtle was not infected with any of the three diseases .....
 

Pastel Tortie

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frogs were a possibility, they did find wild frogs in their enclosure on occasion , they also found one not micro chipped adult , i think they believed it was either someones dumped pet ,or a wild box turtle that got over the wall .... one turtle was not infected with any of the three diseases .....
One thing I found interesting (if I read correctly) was that the interloper (the box turtle without a microchip who just showed up) tested negative for all three diseases.
 

mark1

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One thing I found interesting (if I read correctly) was that the interloper (the box turtle without a microchip who just showed up) tested negative for all three diseases.
i knew one turtle was negative for all three diseases , didn't realize it was the outside one .... i have no doubt your a better reader than i , i'll go with what you read ...... , kinda looks like the frogs then ?
 

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they do dilute it with saline which has a ph of 6.5
OK. How does adding saline to the antibiotic help the intestinal tract and microbiome? Since you seem to always be injecting antibiotics, you must know what I'm talking about. Even with saline added it still "Hurts like Hell".
 

mark1

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OK. How does adding saline to the antibiotic help the intestinal tract and microbiome? Since you seem to always be injecting antibiotics, you must know what I'm talking about. Even with saline added it still "Hurts like Hell".
i believe baytril has little effect on gut flora , little meaning less than other antibiotics , i believe there are studies to that ....... while i haven't used baytril in quite a few years , i never encountered a problem .....
 

Pastel Tortie

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i knew one turtle was negative for all three diseases , didn't realize it was the outside one .... i have no doubt your a better reader than i , i'll go with what you read ...... , kinda looks like the frogs then ?
I think they mentioned three frogs, but no frogs tested positive. Looks like it wasn't a statistically big enough sample to determine one way or the other.
 

mark1

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I think they mentioned three frogs, but no frogs tested positive. Looks like it wasn't a statistically big enough sample to determine one way or the other.

i assumed "free ranging amphibians" to mean frogs , which they may not be ........
 

mark1

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Since you seem to always be injecting antibiotics
you seem have a misconception here ? in the last 15-17yrs i believe i've used antibiotics on 7 turtles , 6 of which came in from the outside , one from florida 5yrs ago , 3 from new jersey 2-3 yrs ago, and 2 from north carolina 6-7yrs ago ...... one was mine , i had it for 10-11yrs previous and i believe was gotten sick from the florida turtle 5 yrs ago , as i never had an issue with any of them until the summer after the florida turtle arrived , and he was extremely sick that spring ...... all 7 were obviously sick , if i think they're ill , they are ill , did i know what they had , no , we guessed , we treated the symptoms and the symptoms went away ....... antibiotics have saved the lives of many animals for me , i've yet to attribute them to a death ....... bacterial infections in turtle and tortoises are extremely common ..... viral infections also ...... the majority of turtles and tortoises i've bought have been sick , i use to keep a lot of transient turtles , i used a lot of baytril ...... most of what i bought proved to be sick back then .... judging from the last 11 turtles i bought in the last 6-7yrs i'd say that trend still holds ......
 

Gijoux

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you seem have a misconception here ? in the last 15-17yrs i believe i've used antibiotics on 7 turtles , 6 of which came in from the outside , one from florida 5yrs ago , 3 from new jersey 2-3 yrs ago, and 2 from north carolina 6-7yrs ago ...... one was mine , i had it for 10-11yrs previous and i believe was gotten sick from the florida turtle 5 yrs ago , as i never had an issue with any of them until the summer after the florida turtle arrived , and he was extremely sick that spring ...... all 7 were obviously sick , if i think they're ill , they are ill , did i know what they had , no , we guessed , we treated the symptoms and the symptoms went away ....... antibiotics have saved the lives of many animals for me , i've yet to attribute them to a death ....... bacterial infections in turtle and tortoises are extremely common ..... viral infections also ...... the majority of turtles and tortoises i've bought have been sick , i use to keep a lot of transient turtles , i used a lot of baytril ...... most of what i bought proved to be sick back then .... judging from the last 11 turtles i bought in the last 6-7yrs i'd say that trend still holds ......
Well that explains it. Lots of sick turtles. Bad husbandry practices continue. This is one reason I like this forum and wish everyone could learn more so you won't have to keep buying sick turtles. The majority of illness that Tortoises and Turtles experience is due to VIRAL infections that unfortunately for which antibiotics do more harm than good. Also, just as you mentioned, people and vets "guess" at what is wrong and keep giving more antibiotics, which destroys all the GOOD bacteria that reside in the animals digestive tract, as well as the BAD bacteria; which in the case of the viral infection, means it kills all the Good Bacteria leaving one with a SICK TURTLE to sell to somebody else. Antibiotic use should only be administered after a culture and specificity test has been performed, so that the CORRECT type of antibiotic is used and ONLY with a bacterial infection. It is the over use of antibiotics that have created these "superbugs" which cannot be stopped. Killing all the good bacteria in the guts of any animal, reptile...will result in a sicker creature very prone to any illness, but especially viral illnesses. There really does exist a Gut-Brain connection that relies on a diverse and plentiful microbiome that antibiotics will destroy lasting for years.
 

mark1

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Well that explains it. Lots of sick turtles. Bad husbandry practices continue. This is one reason I like this forum and wish everyone could learn more so you won't have to keep buying sick turtles. The majority of illness that Tortoises and Turtles experience is due to VIRAL infections that unfortunately for which antibiotics do more harm than good. Also, just as you mentioned, people and vets "guess" at what is wrong and keep giving more antibiotics, which destroys all the GOOD bacteria that reside in the animals digestive tract, as well as the BAD bacteria; which in the case of the viral infection, means it kills all the Good Bacteria leaving one with a SICK TURTLE to sell to somebody else. Antibiotic use should only be administered after a culture and specificity test has been performed, so that the CORRECT type of antibiotic is used and ONLY with a bacterial infection. It is the over use of antibiotics that have created these "superbugs" which cannot be stopped. Killing all the good bacteria in the guts of any animal, reptile...will result in a sicker creature very prone to any illness, but especially viral illnesses. There really does exist a Gut-Brain connection that relies on a diverse and plentiful microbiome that antibiotics will destroy lasting for years.
i assure you the turtles i received with pneumonia had nothing to with their gut biome or antibiotics , their recovery did though , although maybe the dude i got them from will weigh in on whether or not he injects all his turtles with antibiotics ?..... i'll raise my count to 8 , i forgot about the female wood turtle i was sent with open sores on her feet and her toenails rotted off , i think that dude could have stood to risked her gut biome and get some antibiotics in her and a little chlorhexadine like i did ........ the one i got with 2 ear abscesses i doubt was do to with gut biome , lancing and antibiotics seemed to work ? i have 40-50 turtles here , a third to a half of them wouldn't be here without antibiotics ...... i had a really valued turtle around 2003 with a serious respiratory infection when i found him he was seriously sick , he hadn't been coming out because he was sick , i and the vet knew he had a good chance of not making it . baytril , no improvement , amikacin and sub q fluids , he is here today , he perked up by the 4th 5th day , his gut biome survived along with him ...... i cannot remember all the sick reptiles i've used antibiotics on , i've raised and bred dogs my entire life , i've kept reptiles and fish my entire life , this was passed down by my father , i'm not new , and i pay attention ..... i've never used an anti-viral on a reptile , you ? i've had plenty of sick ones that recovered with antibiotics ............ you do realize that ranasvirus in a reptile is almost 100% fatal ? i believe 9 that survived also had herpesvirus , i believe that to be near 100% fatal also ? you do understand that the vets in the article above had a 42% fatality rate ???? seems to me they knew what they were doing .......they treated turtles they knew had a virus with antibiotics for a reason , they describe the antibiotics as prophylaxis ? as far as culture ? mycoplasma infections cannot be reliably cultured by your vet ? mycoplasma is common ... herpes virus , you need pcr test to not be guessing ? .....bacterial pneumonia , the only reliable way to get a specimen to culture is to get it directly from the lung ? that might be a chore in a turtle or tortoise ....... stress is worse than any antibiotic i've used .....

gut biome can be and is often disrupted by disease ....... and is often restored to health with antibiotics ?????

i'm not giving medical advice to no one , i'm just saying your vet injecting your animal with antibiotics is not akin to killing them , the thought is ridiculous ......... from my experience the folks out there selling sick animals are often dumping them before they have to invest in antibiotics , they're definitely not over using them .....
 

Gijoux

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i assure you the turtles i received with pneumonia had nothing to with their gut biome or antibiotics , their recovery did though , although maybe the dude i got them from will weigh in on whether or not he injects all his turtles with antibiotics ?..... i'll raise my count to 8 , i forgot about the female wood turtle i was sent with open sores on her feet and her toenails rotted off , i think that dude could have stood to risked her gut biome and get some antibiotics in her and a little chlorhexadine like i did ........ the one i got with 2 ear abscesses i doubt was do to with gut biome , lancing and antibiotics seemed to work ? i have 40-50 turtles here , a third to a half of them wouldn't be here without antibiotics ...... i had a really valued turtle around 2003 with a serious respiratory infection when i found him he was seriously sick , he hadn't been coming out because he was sick , i and the vet knew he had a good chance of not making it . baytril , no improvement , amikacin and sub q fluids , he is here today , he perked up by the 4th 5th day , his gut biome survived along with him ...... i cannot remember all the sick reptiles i've used antibiotics on , i've raised and bred dogs my entire life , i've kept reptiles and fish my entire life , this was passed down by my father , i'm not new , and i pay attention ..... i've never used an anti-viral on a reptile , you ? i've had plenty of sick ones that recovered with antibiotics ............ you do realize that ranasvirus in a reptile is almost 100% fatal ? i believe 9 that survived also had herpesvirus , i believe that to be near 100% fatal also ? you do understand that the vets in the article above had a 42% fatality rate ???? seems to me they knew what they were doing .......they treated turtles they knew had a virus with antibiotics for a reason , they describe the antibiotics as prophylaxis ? as far as culture ? mycoplasma infections cannot be reliably cultured by your vet ? mycoplasma is common ... herpes virus , you need pcr test to not be guessing ? .....bacterial pneumonia , the only reliable way to get a specimen to culture is to get it directly from the lung ? that might be a chore in a turtle or tortoise ....... stress is worse than any antibiotic i've used .....

gut biome can be and is often disrupted by disease ....... and is often restored to health with antibiotics ?????

i'm not giving medical advice to no one , i'm just saying your vet injecting your animal with antibiotics is not akin to killing them , the thought is ridiculous ......... from my experience the folks out there selling sick animals are often dumping them before they have to invest in antibiotics , they're definitely not over using them .....
Well I'm glad you are the one getting so many sick ones, because apparently you have lots of experience with all the antibiotics and I'm glad it's you dealing with them and not me.
 

mark1

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Well I'm glad you are the one getting so many sick ones,
just like with my dogs , when i got 8 , i get 8 times the experiences someone with 1 gets , time increases that difference exponentially .......
 

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