Keeping tortoises together

[Tom]

This forum is great. The shared experience and knowledge proves to prevent mistakes that happened with the more experienced if the advice is followed. BUT..... i have seen some of you in another thread basically bully this kid into returning his tort. Yes i know that he didn’t know what he got himself into. And should’ve done the research first. But we dont know exactly whats going on. It could’ve been a bday present or a graduation surprise or even just a surprise companion from a loved one. Wouldnt it be nicer if we’re to guide them rather than telling them “if you cant provide this, or do this, return it”. He was so extatic for his new friend and everyone in the thread told him to return it. When i read it, all our info was correct but that was Harsh no matter how u look at it. statistically im guessing about 40% of the forums visitors here are kids to teenagers getting info to care for their new tortoise, maybe more. Not everyone has years and years of care experience, ir mature enough for this kind of responsibility. But i would never tell a kid “return that puppy because your parents will end up taking care of it” (which is 100% of the time) Again i love this place. I learned so much and have seen accurate results. And i try my best to give advice to the new owners in a way that they dont feel pressured. Because in the end we cant force them to do the other. Also our information is “live” and by that i mean we discover new things and techniques which is why its hard to introduce it to a crowd, specially taught by pet stores who cares only for money. I remember buying my sulcata and the guy told me to just soak twice a week and feed lettuce. That they’re not high maintenance at all.. i went here and OMG!! Was he wrong lol i was upset. Thanks to this place he’s a growing healthy smooth sulcuta. I love it here but lets try to help the torts by helping them.

You make some good points Antoni, and I'm glad you felt comfortable expressing them.

In general I agree with you, but… there's always a but… there comes a point, when harsh realities must be dealt with in order to save the lives of the animals that are the subject of these discussions. I don't know which thread you are talking about in your post, but that has happened several times in the past. If someone is unable, unwilling, or can't afford, or doesn't have the space to take care of their animal, then they do need to give it to someone who can care for it properly. I agree with you that we should try to help them figure out ways to get it done correctly, but in the cases where it can't or won't be done correctly, then recommending they give it away is the best option.

In the case of the OP, he's heading toward a train wreck that I've personally witnessed far too many times. The nice approach failed, so it was time to level with the guy and spell it out in plain English. His tortoise's lives depend on it. It seems his ego and pride are going to win out, which means his two tortoise are going to lose. I, and other people who've done what he's doing, or seen it done by others, know what is coming. He'll find one or both of them bloody or dead. Then his foolish pride will make him leave the forum in silence and shame, when instead he should share the mistake he made and try to prevent others from making that same mistake. How much do you want to bet he didn't even click open the thread I linked for him with the tortoise that now has a bloody hole where its eye used to be?

I appreciate your reminder of why we are here. The goal is to help tortoises and their people. I need to constantly assess and re-assess how to best accomplish that, but sometimes I am going to fail. I can't reach everybody. Some people don't want to be helped, and won't allow themselves to be helped, no matter what approach is taken. In cases like this, my hope is that some of the other people reading along will be helped, even if the OP can't or won't be helped.

 

[Antoni]

You make some good points Antoni, and I'm glad you felt comfortable expressing them.

In general I agree with you, but… there's always a but… there comes a point, when harsh realities must be dealt with in order to save the lives of the animals that are the subject of these discussions. I don't know which thread you are talking about in your post, but that has happened several times in the past. If someone is unable, unwilling, or can't afford, or doesn't have the space to take care of their animal, then they do need to give it to someone who can care for it properly. I agree with you that we should try to help them figure out ways to get it done correctly, but in the cases where it can't or won't be done correctly, then recommending they give it away is the best option.

In the case of the OP, he's heading toward a train wreck that I've personally witnessed far too many times. The nice approach failed, so it was time to level with the guy and spell it out in plain English. His tortoise's lives depend on it. It seems his ego and pride are going to win out, which means his two tortoise are going to lose. I, and other people who've done what he's doing, or seen it done by others, know what is coming. He'll find one or both of them bloody or dead. Then his foolish pride will make him leave the forum in silence and shame, when instead he should share the mistake he made and try to prevent others from making that same mistake. How much do you want to bet he didn't even click open the thread I linked for him with the tortoise that now has a bloody hole where its eye used to be?

I appreciate your reminder of why we are here. The goal is to help tortoises and their people. I need to constantly assess and re-assess how to best accomplish that, but sometimes I am going to fail. I can't reach everybody. Some people don't want to be helped, and won't allow themselves to be helped, no matter what approach is taken. In cases like this, my hope is that some of the other people reading along will be helped, even if the OP can't or won't be helped.

100% agree. Im trying my best to share the info i have learned here. But some simply wanna see for themselves.. im not one of those. Never was.. so i appreciate the knowledge shared 150%!!

 

[Turborich]

You guys and gals can follow Tom like a flock of sheep and can take everything he says as holly. That's your choice. I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression. I've seen it in multiple posts now. Perhaps Tom is so worried about missing eyes, scales and finding dead tortoises because of his own mistakes which he now lashes out at others for? This forum reminds me of the HOA with the bad president that you just can't get rid of. Goodbye people.

 

[Tom]

You guys and gals can follow Tom like a flock of sheep and can take everything he says as holly. That's your choice. I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression. I've seen it in multiple posts now. Perhaps Tom is so worried about missing eyes, scales and finding dead tortoises because of his own mistakes which he now lashes out at others for? This forum reminds me of the HOA with the bad president that you just can't get rid of. Goodbye people.

Several people are telling you the same thing. No one is "following" me. If multiple people are telling you the world is not flat, that doesn't mean they are blindly following the first guy that said it. It just means more than one person realizes the world is not flat.

No one lashed out at you. We are all trying to save your tortoises from the harm that is likely coming their way. You taking good advice based on decades of first hand as some sort of personal attack is not a wise choice for your tortoises in my opinion. I have nothing against you. I'm just trying to help you understand that you've made a mistake and your tortoises will pay the price for it.

 

[TechnoCheese]

You guys and gals can follow Tom like a flock of sheep and can take everything he says as holly. That's your choice. I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression. I've seen it in multiple posts now. Perhaps Tom is so worried about missing eyes, scales and finding dead tortoises because of his own mistakes which he now lashes out at others for? This forum reminds me of the HOA with the bad president that you just can't get rid of. Goodbye people.

So, let me get this strait. Because Tom has made these mistakes, and is trying to keep people from doing the same thing, it means he is bitter and wants to attack everyone who thinks they can do it.
Lots of us have experienced the things that the forum has warned us about. It’s not just Tom, it’s the forum as a whole. We don’t just blindly follow, we have observed it through the forum. We have seen these with our own eyes. I hope that you drop your naive view that your tortoises are “friends”, and that they’ll get along fine (while showing obvious signs of aggression, of course), and do what’s best for your tortoises. This is considered animal cruelty. You are not ignorant to the fact that they are being aggressive to each other, yet you still choose to leave them together.
You are not the exception. You are the example.

 

[Antoni]

You guys and gals can follow Tom like a flock of sheep and can take everything he says as holly. That's your choice. I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression. I've seen it in multiple posts now. Perhaps Tom is so worried about missing eyes, scales and finding dead tortoises because of his own mistakes which he now lashes out at others for? This forum reminds me of the HOA with the bad president that you just can't get rid of. Goodbye people.

“Follow”? It’s a forum dude. People will say what they want. I. This case they were trying to help you by pointing out things that they’ve experienced. And lets say everything is good on ur side by some luck with their personality, multiple breeders and handlers not just tom points the same things and concerns. So people re-reading forums will get these infoz I dont agree with the bashing with kenan. Since not all his info is “outdated” i still find alot of what he say helpful and the video is entertaining. But u got put things that he say like “flip the alpha male over so he knows ur the alpha” as an example of an advice that put us in concern and a video of him admitting that he came home to a flipped and dead male sharing with multiple adults. Take what you think is right with kenan or here. Just remember here u are talking to alotnof experienced handlers not just one. More torts doesnt mean they’re better either. Lands in florida are bigger than most states so the amount of tortoise they can care for differ as well. Anyway. Good luck with your tortoise. Feel free to read back any threads that could help u in the future.

 

[Joetheyido]

Just curious, how much space are you providing the two Hermanns that are getting along very well?

Most of the time now they have a garden, when the weather is bad they have a spare bedroom. Before I had them they had a pretty small rabbit cage in winter but from what I know there still wasn't any aggression and no sighs on them of anything.

 

[Jay Bagley]

You guys and gals can follow Tom like a flock of sheep and can take everything he says as holly. That's your choice. I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression. I've seen it in multiple posts now. Perhaps Tom is so worried about missing eyes, scales and finding dead tortoises because of his own mistakes which he now lashes out at others for? This forum reminds me of the HOA with the bad president that you just can't get rid of. Goodbye people.

I tend to just listen to who or what ever makes the most sense. Tom's care sheets that he has out for sulcatas have helped me tremendously. Do I follow them to a T, no. Do I eventually want to get to the point where I am, yes very much. Since I have been applying a lot of the info that he does have out there, my tortoise has transformed from being underweight and small to packing on the pounds. I think what I like the most about the info that he puts out there is that he does it in a very modest way. I hope you don't leave. Its a holiday weekend, crack a beer with a couple friends and reset.

 

[Redfool]

I for one come to this forum to learn. You must realize that there is a very different presentation technique between an elementary school teacher and a college professor. They both present info. No matter how it’s presented, just analyze the facts. Facts are facts. Take no offense from someone you don’t know and will probably never interact with, just use their knowledge.

 

[Joetheyido]

I've been keeping tortoises for more than 30 years too. I/we did a lot of things wrong during that time and not everyone has figured this out. Just because your two aren't openly trying to bite and kill each other doesn't mean its not a problem. Being "right next to each other all the time" is called crowding. Its one or both telling the other: "Hey jackass! This territory is occupied. Why don't you leave and go find your own place?" Only they can't leave, and the chronic stress of the situation takes a toll over time.

That was just my experience, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It goes to show everyone has a different experiences. I believe I have given them just enough space to chose where and what they want to do.

I have read on keeping groups of 3 or more together, I believe Tom you might have written something before can't remember tho. Would that only apply when they are smaller or does the amount of space they have come into play?

I do listen to alot of good information from here and Tom mainly. If there is obviously sings there's something wrong then change it.

 

[tglazie]

You guys and gals can follow Tom like a flock of sheep and can take everything he says as holly. That's your choice. I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression. I've seen it in multiple posts now. Perhaps Tom is so worried about missing eyes, scales and finding dead tortoises because of his own mistakes which he now lashes out at others for? This forum reminds me of the HOA with the bad president that you just can't get rid of. Goodbye people.

I may be speaking to a wall here, but you really shouldn't leave. Whatever your feelings may be toward Tom, this forum is a valuable resource, and it's members have contributed greatly to the body of knowledge concerning the captive care of these animals. I've been keeping tortoises for decades, and I can second many of Tom's views from my personal experience. Granted, he's not a diplomat, but if you can for one moment divorce what you perceive to be his condescending tone from the advice he has on offer, you will be the better for it.

Regarding head bobbing, yes, it is a normal mating behavior, but so is a crow eating my baby tortoise's guts through a hole pecked in his carapace. This doesn't mean I should indulge the God forsaken crow, and it doesn't mean I should allow one of my male tortoises unfettered access to my females or other males simply because the behavior that would follow such an action is normal or natural. Bottom line with tortoises is that they are, if nothing else, big jerks. Just because it is normal for them to be jerks doesn't mean we should allow them to be jerks to one another.

If you don't want to participate in the forum anymore, I don't think there's anything any of us could say to convince you otherwise. However, I hope that when your feelings of indignity toward Tom subside (or at least dim ever so slightly) that you will at least return as a reader of the content generated here.

T.G.

 

[Tom]

I have read on keeping groups of 3 or more together, I believe Tom you might have written something before can't remember tho. Would that only apply when they are smaller or does the amount of space they have come into play?

I don't believe space has much to do with it. When I turned my two male sulcatas loose on opposite ends of a 5 acre ranch they would usually find each other, and start trying to kill each other, within 10-20 minutes. I had to only let one out at a time. Nowadays I don't "let them out" at all, and I just made their enclosures bigger. My main sulcata enclosure is now over 8000 sq. ft. Another lesson I had to learn the hard way over the years.

I think this is two different conversations for babies/juveniles, and adults too. Prior to those male hormones kicking in, most species can get along fairly well in small groups, and I don't think enclosure size matters all that much. For adults, larger enclosures with lots of visual barriers and hiding areas will reduce tensions, but a pair of adult males, or a male and female pair will still find each other and have problems even if they have a giant enclosure. Two females might be able to co-esist in this sort of situation (large enclosure with lots of visual barrier and hiding spots), but it really depends on the individuals and the species in general. This is more likely to work with two leopard tortoise or star tortoise females than it is with two desert tortoises, sulcatas or russians.

 

[Joetheyido]

I don't believe space has much to do with it. When I turned my two male sulcatas loose on opposite ends of a 5 acre ranch they would usually find each other, and start trying to kill each other, within 10-20 minutes. I had to only let one out at a time. Nowadays I don't "let them out" at all, and I just made their enclosures bigger. My main sulcata enclosure is now over 8000 sq. ft. Another lesson I had to learn the hard way over the years.

I think this is two different conversations for babies/juveniles, and adults too. Prior to those male hormones kicking in, most species can get along fairly well in small groups, and I don't think enclosure size matters all that much. For adults, larger enclosures with lots of visual barriers and hiding areas will reduce tensions, but a pair of adult males, or a male and female pair will still find each other and have problems even if they have a giant enclosure. Two females might be able to co-esist in this sort of situation (large enclosure with lots of visual barrier and hiding spots), but it really depends on the individuals and the species in general. This is more likely to work with two leopard tortoise or star tortoise females than it is with two desert tortoises, sulcatas or russians.

Ok cheers Tom. I have to female Herman's and I believe to female stars so maybe I'm lucky and they do.

 

[tglazie]

Regarding Kamp Kenan, I have to admit that I occasionally watch that channel. I don't think he's an expert, and he definitely engages in some practices that I wouldn't. He and I differ greatly regarding separation, which is obvious to anyone familiar with his collection. All of his animals exist in groups, and several of them exist in multi-species groups, and many of his hatchlings are kept in multi-species groups, which is why I would never purchase any animals he produces. In my view, he just takes way too many risks. For instance, I would never keep a galaps and aldabras together, nor would I keep elongata and manouria together, nor would I keep elongata and redfoots together. And I do remember he lost one of his male sulcatas to male on male violence, and to me personally, I just don't know how he can continue keeping those animals together without the constant fear that it could happen again.

I mean, speaking purely from my own experience, if something tragic happens, I look at what caused it, and I do my best to keep those causal factors from coalescing ever again so that any such tragedy in the future may be avoided. My old man passed away in 2011 from a heart attack. After that, I quit smoking, significantly reduced my drinking, improved my diet and started walking the trails on the southern end of my property. After that happened, I began thinking seriously about how my tortoises would fare if I suddenly passed away, leaving my old lady and younger brother to look after my group in my stead. What would happen to my employees if I continued smoking and making bad life choices like my poor old man, God rest him? I did the logical thing, what was, in my view, the right thing. Same works for those tortoises. I just don't see how you can square keeping multiple males in a group when something so unspeakably horrible happened. I mean, it's not just the irreplaceable loss of that animal, but also all that work and time, none of which you will be getting back, all of which was in vain. I just couldn't accept something like that and then, well, just choose to do nothing.

I don't know. Ya'll know I'm a bit of an extremist when it comes to this stuff. Something about my upbringing, I suppose, or just a tactic I developed being at loggerheads with my old man and uncle concerning tortoise care. It's actually something I rather enjoy about the forum, flushing out the differences, explaining why we do things the way we do. Makes you reexamine things. And self reflection is good, in my view. It makes us better at keeping these beasts.

T.G.

 

[Antoni]

That was just my experience, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It goes to show everyone has a different experiences. I believe I have given them just enough space to chose where and what they want to do.

I have read on keeping groups of 3 or more together, I believe Tom you might have written something before can't remember tho. Would that only apply when they are smaller or does the amount of space they have come into play?

I do listen to alot of good information from here and Tom mainly. If there is obviously sings there's something wrong then change it.

Im currently keeping 3 leos together. It promotes competition which makes them eat when the other is eating. That being said, they are only 3 months old and ive been informed that once they are bigger i would need to separate. Also on top of that while i keep them together i lrovide enough room for them to roam and stay away from aggression. If i notice any type of aggression i will separate right away. ( i have the enclosures ready just incase)

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Please allow me to clarify my own, previous input about keeping a small herd of tortoises.
I keep Redfoot. Only Redfoot. And they may just be the most calm and tolerant species of all. But even with them. Pairs are not anything I'd recommend.

 

[KarenSoCal]

I have my own choice and I choose to leave this group due to Tom's aggression.

Don't dismiss the message just because you don't like the messenger.

 

[Turborich]

Well guys and gals, just thought I'd pop in in tell you all that Tom is totally incorrect about just about everything that he claimed. As you know, I had two desert tortoises together. Well, now you can make it three! It's been over two months now with all three of them and they are all doing fantastic and all interact with each other. No harm has come to any of them. I basically let them do their own thing and they figured everything else out on their own!

My large female has decided to live and make a burrow under my 8'x10' shed which is raised off of the ground about 6". Sometimes the other two tortoises will stroll in for a daytime visit, however they go into their own borrow at the end of the day which is about 20' away. Yes, two tortoises in one burrow and they love it! A large male and a medium sized female have both made the burrow home. They will usually come out to feed around the same time. Now that summer is in full swing and the nights don't fall under 90 degrees, the large male will sometimes come out at night and sleep on the grass. The tortoises, my two dogs, a bunch of Mediterranean house geckos and toads all share my back yard in peace and harmony.

All three are happy and do their own thing without any friction or fighting. Just like all other animals there is a pecking order. If you allow them to work it out then they are quite peaceful creatures.

As far as food, they love mulberry leaves, grape vine leaves and dandelion leaves and flowers! They will eat spinach, kale, bell peppers, squash, etc, but really prefer the first three!

We are talking about desert tortoises here, not Sulcata tortoises. If you want to listen to Tom then more power to you, however I know what I have experienced in my own backyard. Also, if you think that Kenan doesn't know about tortoises, then that's your opinion. I think it's laughable to say he's not very educated about tortoises or turtles after watching his videos. I would say that he's more of an expert versus anyone here.

Thanks for reading and take care!

 

[Reptilony]

Well guys and gals, just thought I'd pop in in tell you all that Tom is totally incorrect about just about everything that he claimed. As you know, I had two desert tortoises together. Well, now you can make it three! It's been over two months now with all three of them and they are all doing fantastic and all interact with each other. No harm has come to any of them. I basically let them do their own thing and they figured everything else out on their own!

My large female has decided to live and make a burrow under my 8'x10' shed which is raised off of the ground about 6". Sometimes the other two tortoises will stroll in for a daytime visit, however they go into their own borrow at the end of the day which is about 20' away. Yes, two tortoises in one burrow and they love it! A large male and a medium sized female have both made the burrow home. They will usually come out to feed around the same time. Now that summer is in full swing and the nights don't fall under 90 degrees, the large male will sometimes come out at night and sleep on the grass. The tortoises, my two dogs, a bunch of Mediterranean house geckos and toads all share my back yard in peace and harmony.

All three are happy and do their own thing without any friction or fighting. Just like all other animals there is a pecking order. If you allow them to work it out then they are quite peaceful creatures.

As far as food, they love mulberry leaves, grape vine leaves and dandelion leaves and flowers! They will eat spinach, kale, bell peppers, squash, etc, but really prefer the first three!

We are talking about desert tortoises here, not Sulcata tortoises. If you want to listen to Tom then more power to you, however I know what I have experienced in my own backyard. Also, if you think that Kenan doesn't know about tortoises, then that's your opinion. I think it's laughable to say he's not very educated about tortoises or turtles after watching his videos. I would say that he's more of an expert versus anyone here.

Thanks for reading and take care!

Wow, I disagree with everything you said...thanks for sharing!

 

[TechnoCheese]

Well guys and gals, just thought I'd pop in in tell you all that Tom is totally incorrect about just about everything that he claimed. As you know, I had two desert tortoises together. Well, now you can make it three! It's been over two months now with all three of them and they are all doing fantastic and all interact with each other. No harm has come to any of them. I basically let them do their own thing and they figured everything else out on their own!

My large female has decided to live and make a burrow under my 8'x10' shed which is raised off of the ground about 6". Sometimes the other two tortoises will stroll in for a daytime visit, however they go into their own borrow at the end of the day which is about 20' away. Yes, two tortoises in one burrow and they love it! A large male and a medium sized female have both made the burrow home. They will usually come out to feed around the same time. Now that summer is in full swing and the nights don't fall under 90 degrees, the large male will sometimes come out at night and sleep on the grass. The tortoises, my two dogs, a bunch of Mediterranean house geckos and toads all share my back yard in peace and harmony.

All three are happy and do their own thing without any friction or fighting. Just like all other animals there is a pecking order. If you allow them to work it out then they are quite peaceful creatures.

As far as food, they love mulberry leaves, grape vine leaves and dandelion leaves and flowers! They will eat spinach, kale, bell peppers, squash, etc, but really prefer the first three!

We are talking about desert tortoises here, not Sulcata tortoises. If you want to listen to Tom then more power to you, however I know what I have experienced in my own backyard. Also, if you think that Kenan doesn't know about tortoises, then that's your opinion. I think it's laughable to say he's not very educated about tortoises or turtles after watching his videos. I would say that he's more of an expert versus anyone here.

Thanks for reading and take care!

Good job, you got a group. AKA how to make tortoises live together and establish a pecking order, which everyone has been telling you to do instead of keeping a pair.

Them sleeping in the same burrow is called crowding, not affectionate. It’s one trying to stress the other out of its territory. Believe it or not, you can’t give human emotions to everything.

Kenan recently recommended that you keep tortoises with other large reptiles. I don’t know about you, but to me that’s absolutely unacceptable,

And leads to questions like this.
You can choose to keep up your arrogant facade, but I do hope you know that your animals suffer for it.