Keeping tortoises together

[Turborich]

I've always been under the impression that these creatures should be kept by themselves. That's what I have done based on what I've read on forums. It seems that this isn't always the case though. I've been watching Kamp Kenan on YouTube. He's can be considered a turtle and tortoise expert. He suggest housing tortoises together, especially to increase egg production if you are a breeder. He suggests a ratio of a few (2-4) males to roughly (7-10) females. Of course you will need a good sized area for this many tortoises or you will have issues. He also says that some tortoises such as Sulcatas will tend to battle more. However over time they will calm down and be peaceful. Check him out on YouTube at Kamp Kenan. After seeing this, I let my two tortoises interact today and they were just fine. Not everything you read online is always true all of the time. I think that various views and experience is healthy.

 

[Marianna]

I have 3 male marginated tortoises on 5000 square feet (500 m2) here in Greece. No problem whatsoever. I think it is all about having enough space for them to live as naturally as possible. I wouldn't want to experiment though in a 8x4 feet enclosure.
Like human beings, tortoises don't want to be locked/stacked up in a too small housing either.

 

[TechnoCheese]

I've always been under the impression that these creatures should be kept by themselves. That's what I have done based on what I've read on forums. It seems that this isn't always the case though. I've been watching Kamp Kenan on YouTube. He's can be considered a turtle and tortoise expert. He suggest housing tortoises together, especially to increase egg production if you are a breeder. He suggests a ratio of a few (2-4) males to roughly (7-10) females. Of course you will need a good sized area for this many tortoises or you will have issues. He also says that some tortoises such as Sulcatas will tend to battle more. However over time they will calm down and be peaceful. Check him out on YouTube at Kamp Kenan. After seeing this, I let my two tortoises interact today and they were just fine. Not everything you read online is always true all of the time. I think that various views and experience is healthy.

Key word: Groups.
It cannot work in pairs. In pairs, there is always a dominant and a subordinate, and both tortoises are immensely stressed. One tortoise is always being bullied, and the other is constantly trying to get the other out of its territory. In groups, they are able to have a pecking order, and the aggression is spread out.
Tortoises cannot make friends, do not get lonely, and are solitary animals. The reason your tortoises were “fine”, is because they were only together for a short period of time. I believe your tortoises are male and female, but correct if I’m wrong. If they had been HOUSED together for days or months, you would have noticed aggression (cuddling, following, laying on food, not letting the other eat, sitting on each other, biting, etc.), and the male might even start harassing the female.
Kamp Kenan is in no way a good source of information, and it is incredibly dangerous that he calls himself an expert. Most of his information is outdated, and incorrect. And even he has stated that, every now and then, he finds a dead male, flipped over from a fight.
Here are some good links-
Your Opinion on Kamp Kenan Advice on leos. Good ? Bad ?
https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php...mp-Kenan-Advice-on-leos.-Good-?-Bad-?.153284/
Kamp Kenan Baby Kits
https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Kamp-Kenan-Baby-Kits.164761/

 

[TechnoCheese]

I have 3 male marginated tortoises on 5000 square feet (500 m2) here in Greece. No problem whatsoever. I think it is all about having enough space for them to live as naturally as possible. I wouldn't want to experiment though in a 8x4 feet enclosure.
Like human beings, tortoises don't want to be locked/stacked up in a too small housing either.

Yep, space is definitely important!

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Take notice of 2 things in his videos.
1 He lives in a tropical environment
2 He has very large plots of land
The only species that almost (not always) get along in groups with one male for every no fewer than 3 females is the Redfoot.
With a lot of space, hide areas, etc. These often times can be kept together. But the space needed isn't something available to most keepers. Providing the warmth, shade and needed humidity is also difficult. But not for Keenan in south Florida.
Most first time keepers think of a BIG enclosure as a large fish tank, etc. A large enclosure is larger than that. With most medium sized tortoises such as leopard or Redfoot needing at least an 8x8 foot space at the very minimum. So anything less than an entire reptile room in a house will soon be too small for just one. Much less a group.
And I agree. No pairs. Not even Redfoot. And never, ever mix species in the same enclosure.

 

[Tom]

He's can be considered a turtle and tortoise expert.

No. No he can't. Not by anyone who knows better.

He's a charismatic guy who makes professional quality videos. The content of the videos is not always a good example or good advice.

As has been said already, pairs are the problem we discuss. Most species can be kept in groups in some way or other with caution and the correct sex ratios.

 

[Erik Elvis]

I like Kenans videos. Ive watched a lot of them and he has updated some of his info from older videos. So I think he's willing to learn. But yeah def not a one stop shop for care.

 

[Yvonne G]

I have a group of leopards, a group of russians, a group of desert tortoises, a group of RF, a group of YF and a few groups of box turtles. These groups all live outside in fairly large yards. The smallest group is 2.2 RF. They key here is the size of their yards and the amount of sight barriers in their yards.

I like to keep babies in groups because of competition for the food. One sees the other eating and it makes him eat. Sometimes a single baby won't eat, but you put him with others and he eats.

 

[katieandiggy]

I have a group of leopards, a group of russians, a group of desert tortoises, a group of RF, a group of YF and a few groups of box turtles. These groups all live outside in fairly large yards. The smallest group is 2.2 RF. They key here is the size of their yards and the amount of sight barriers in their yards.

I like to keep babies in groups because of competition for the food. One sees the other eating and it makes him eat. Sometimes a single baby won't eat, but you put him with others and he eats.

Yvonne at what age do you see it becoming a problem... I have a large garden and more than enough space, but as for keeping them together In a smaller area say 8ft by 4ft at what age would you say they should be separated.

 

[Antoni]

I have a group of leopards, a group of russians, a group of desert tortoises, a group of RF, a group of YF and a few groups of box turtles. These groups all live outside in fairly large yards. The smallest group is 2.2 RF. They key here is the size of their yards and the amount of sight barriers in their yards.

I like to keep babies in groups because of competition for the food. One sees the other eating and it makes him eat. Sometimes a single baby won't eat, but you put him with others and he eats.

I have read about babies being put together for that reason, but at what age or size would u consider separating them?

 

[tglazie]

As an extremist on this subject with what some seem to describe as an outlying set of experiences, I've always pushed total separation. They can be placed together for supervised combat/breeding, but otherwise, I keep them separated. Like Yvonne said, keeping hatchlings together definitely promotes a better feeding response, and as hatchlings aren't filled with the fury the often fills the blackened hearts of many adult tortoises, they can often be kept together without incident. This isn't a surefire thing, however, and I've seen hatchling Hermanns and Russians as young as six months resorting to chasing and vicious biting, and I have heard of it in numerous other species. I've personally never seen it in hatchling marginated tortoises, but I have seen other more passive aggressive forms of dominance, and I generally move to isolate those individuals engaging in such practices. Last year's group was particularly notable for the fact that I didn't have to isolate a single hatchling, and my noting of that fact should indicate just how remarkable such a thing is.

Yes, sometimes group dynamics can work among adults, but with respect to my experience keeping marginated tortoises, it has never worked, not once. I raise hatchlings together, and when one of them starts to mature into a juvenile male, that tortoise will start engaging in dominance play and bullying. With the marginated tortoises, I can't even seem to get the females to get along. I once kept my three biggest girls together with a single male, and he would terrorize them constantly. However, once I removed the male, Lady Gino, my largest and most dominant female, took over as tyrant, and she was even worse than Little Gino. At least Little Gino would lay off as soon as he bred one of the girls to completion. He would bother them, do his business, then go rest in the shade somewhere. Lady Gino, on the other hand, would just relentlessly terrorize the other girls. After a few days of this, Marge started coming down with respiratory problems. She wasn't eating. At that point, I decided that complete separation was necessary.

Once I did this, all my girls' personalities changed. Everyone was far more content, more gregarious. Sure, I introduce them to one another every so often. Sundays are my big day for these social events, where I take the tortoises out, water them, given all the girls access to an enclosed grazing area, and predictably, Lady Gino acts like a giant jerk and starts chasing other tortoises around. She's generally the first to be returned to her enclosure. But even Marge, who is normally exceedingly shy and reserved, will get an urge to lash out and attack little Whitins and Biggins. Interestingly, Whitins and Biggins, who were raised together with a pair of males and had often been the objects of aggression, have never shown aggression to one another. Of course, I've never owned a male that didn't show aggression. Every single one that I've ever kept was aggressive; the only real question with the boys is "how aggressive is he?" In the case of Little Gino, my most prolific male, the answer is extremely aggressive. Big Gino, on the other hand, is more interested in food than aggression, but even with him, I wouldn't allow him unfettered access to other tortoises. Joey, my youngest male, is also fairly aggressive, but given that he has been raised in isolation and not part of a hatchling group (I acquired him as a juvenile from Chris Leone a few years back), I couldn't gauge exactly how monstrous he truly is. But I do know that when he is in the presence of the other boys, he doesn't shy away from confrontation.

Many new folks are asking how old the animals have to be when you have to separate them, and that truly varies. I've spoken with enough fellow tortoise keepers to know that some folks will never have to separate their animals. I raised Whitins and Biggins together for years, and they never had an incident. I ultimately separated them when they passed the five inch mark, as I'm wont to do, but that's just a policy I started regarding marginated tortoises back in the mid 2000s. I've lost tortoises to aggression that I failed to recognize in the past, and thus, I drew a line in the sand. But obviously, that isn't necessary for all animals. Whitins and Biggins have no problems with each other, even when I reintroduce them on neutral ground. Were I a betting man, I'd say they could probably live together in a large enough space without any problems. But I'm not going to do it, because even though I've never seen these two open their mouths at one another, even though I've never seen these two interact with more than a sniff to the shell of the other, all it takes is one incident, one day when Biggins decides that Whitins will look better minus an eyeball.

There are other reasons as well. I like ensuring paternity with my tortoises. I like knowing which tortoise laid which egg, and which male fertilized said egg. It makes things so much easier, especially when my girls manage to sneak a clutch past me, so I know, this baby is in Lady Gino's enclosure, ergo, this baby is Lady Gino's and Little Gino's. Sure, some people don't care, but I guess I'm a bit obsessive in that regard, like Maury for tortoises or something.

I'm not trying to press my way of doing things onto others. If groups has worked for you, that's wonderful, I'm glad you saved all that time, energy and money on fencing materials. But know that for many, it just doesn't work. Now I'm not saying don't get more than one tortoise either. I mean, I have thirty five animals under my care currently (yeah, I know, Tom, small potatoes), and all the adults and subadults in that number are kept singly. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy multiple animals, and it doesn't mean you can't enjoy watching them interact. It just means that for their safety and for your absolute peace of mind, you just can't beat single keeping. Sure, it's more work to set up, but in my view, I wouldn't have it any other way.

T.G.

 

[Antoni]

As an extremist on this subject with what some seem to describe as an outlying set of experiences, I've always pushed total separation. They can be placed together for supervised combat/breeding, but otherwise, I keep them separated. Like Yvonne said, keeping hatchlings together definitely promotes a better feeding response, and as hatchlings aren't filled with the fury the often fills the blackened hearts of many adult tortoises, they can often be kept together without incident. This isn't a surefire thing, however, and I've seen hatchling Hermanns and Russians as young as six months resorting to chasing and vicious biting, and I have heard of it in numerous other species. I've personally never seen it in hatchling marginated tortoises, but I have seen other more passive aggressive forms of dominance, and I generally move to isolate those individuals engaging in such practices. Last year's group was particularly notable for the fact that I didn't have to isolate a single hatchling, and my noting of that fact should indicate just how remarkable such a thing is.

Yes, sometimes group dynamics can work among adults, but with respect to my experience keeping marginated tortoises, it has never worked, not once. I raise hatchlings together, and when one of them starts to mature into a juvenile male, that tortoise will start engaging in dominance play and bullying. With the marginated tortoises, I can't even seem to get the females to get along. I once kept my three biggest girls together with a single male, and he would terrorize them constantly. However, once I removed the male, Lady Gino, my largest and most dominant female, took over as tyrant, and she was even worse than Little Gino. At least Little Gino would lay off as soon as he bred one of the girls to completion. He would bother them, do his business, then go rest in the shade somewhere. Lady Gino, on the other hand, would just relentlessly terrorize the other girls. After a few days of this, Marge started coming down with respiratory problems. She wasn't eating. At that point, I decided that complete separation was necessary.

Once I did this, all my girls' personalities changed. Everyone was far more content, more gregarious. Sure, I introduce them to one another every so often. Sundays are my big day for these social events, where I take the tortoises out, water them, given all the girls access to an enclosed grazing area, and predictably, Lady Gino acts like a giant jerk and starts chasing other tortoises around. She's generally the first to be returned to her enclosure. But even Marge, who is normally exceedingly shy and reserved, will get an urge to lash out and attack little Whitins and Biggins. Interestingly, Whitins and Biggins, who were raised together with a pair of males and had often been the objects of aggression, have never shown aggression to one another. Of course, I've never owned a male that didn't show aggression. Every single one that I've ever kept was aggressive; the only real question with the boys is "how aggressive is he?" In the case of Little Gino, my most prolific male, the answer is extremely aggressive. Big Gino, on the other hand, is more interested in food than aggression, but even with him, I wouldn't allow him unfettered access to other tortoises. Joey, my youngest male, is also fairly aggressive, but given that he has been raised in isolation and not part of a hatchling group (I acquired him as a juvenile from Chris Leone a few years back), I couldn't gauge exactly how monstrous he truly is. But I do know that when he is in the presence of the other boys, he doesn't shy away from confrontation.

Many new folks are asking how old the animals have to be when you have to separate them, and that truly varies. I've spoken with enough fellow tortoise keepers to know that some folks will never have to separate their animals. I raised Whitins and Biggins together for years, and they never had an incident. I ultimately separated them when they passed the five inch mark, as I'm wont to do, but that's just a policy I started regarding marginated tortoises back in the mid 2000s. I've lost tortoises to aggression that I failed to recognize in the past, and thus, I drew a line in the sand. But obviously, that isn't necessary for all animals. Whitins and Biggins have no problems with each other, even when I reintroduce them on neutral ground. Were I a betting man, I'd say they could probably live together in a large enough space without any problems. But I'm not going to do it, because even though I've never seen these two open their mouths at one another, even though I've never seen these two interact with more than a sniff to the shell of the other, all it takes is one incident, one day when Biggins decides that Whitins will look better minus an eyeball.

There are other reasons as well. I like ensuring paternity with my tortoises. I like knowing which tortoise laid which egg, and which male fertilized said egg. It makes things so much easier, especially when my girls manage to sneak a clutch past me, so I know, this baby is in Lady Gino's enclosure, ergo, this baby is Lady Gino's and Little Gino's. Sure, some people don't care, but I guess I'm a bit obsessive in that regard, like Maury for tortoises or something.

I'm not trying to press my way of doing things onto others. If groups has worked for you, that's wonderful, I'm glad you saved all that time, energy and money on fencing materials. But know that for many, it just doesn't work. Now I'm not saying don't get more than one tortoise either. I mean, I have thirty five animals under my care currently (yeah, I know, Tom, small potatoes), and all the adults and subadults in that number are kept singly. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy multiple animals, and it doesn't mean you can't enjoy watching them interact. It just means that for their safety and for your absolute peace of mind, you just can't beat single keeping. Sure, it's more work to set up, but in my view, I wouldn't have it any other way.

T.G.

Hello! Still a newbie with the hobby, how do u feel about separate enclosures but have the same roaming yard?

 

[tglazie]

Hello! Still a newbie with the hobby, how do u feel about separate enclosures but have the same roaming yard?

This all depends upon the level of exposure. I have a roaming yard that serves as neutral ground. I use it for all animal social interactions. It also has the highest concentration of edible plants growing, and it is basically my seed bank. Sometimes, the tortoises overgraze a particular plant within their enclosure. In the central neutral space, I usually have that plant growing, and it will produce seed for the coming season. But that's a tangent, apologies, I'm often one to get on those. What I mean regarding exposure is, how much time do the animals spend in one another's company? How much of that time is unsupervised? I'm personally of the view that these animals should be supervised when kept together, so from my perspective, a common area is fine, but you should be there watching their interactions to ensure that nothing potentially damaging occurs to one or the other animals.

I place my males together a few days out of brumation to engage in ritual combat. This gets their man juices going, inclines them to be more enthusiastic breeders. Basically, you get them fighting, then remove both of them from the fight before there is a clear winner and before anyone gets hurt, and both males come to the conclusion that they won the fight. Both of them think they're big and bad, that the opponent was the coward who ran. I'm not sure exactly how this mechanism operates, the biology of it, but I have noticed that my males fertilize many more eggs when they've had a few bouts beforehand. Apologies, this is a somewhat related tangent, but my point is that even tortoises who hate each other on first sniff, who get in each other's faces like a couple of MMA fighters squaring off, can be allowed some time together so long as that time is supervised, and that that is perfectly fine, even beneficial in a certain respect. But the question, again, comes back to level of exposure.

How much time will these animals be spending together. A number of keepers here keep their animals together, but give them a gigantic amount of space in which to roam with numerous sight barriers. This works because all animals within the bounds of the territory can escape from one another should the need arise. What I'm doing isn't really that different. In keeping the animals together in a large space with plenty of hiding places and sight barriers, they are simply lowering the chances that the animals will run into each other and generate conflict. I'm simply lowering those chances to basically zero, ensuring that all conflict and encounters occur within a window that I, as their caretaker, can control.

What kind of tortoises do you have? How big are they? Do you keep them together or separate? Do you have one and are thinking of getting another? All of these things will help me better tailor any advice I may have to offer. But yes, I'm of the opinion that you should keep the animals safe and ensure they spend most of their time on their own. That's how I've been doing things for a while now, and it has worked quite well.

T.G.

 

[Antoni]

This all depends upon the level of exposure. I have a roaming yard that serves as neutral ground. I use it for all animal social interactions. It also has the highest concentration of edible plants growing, and it is basically my seed bank. Sometimes, the tortoises overgraze a particular plant within their enclosure. In the central neutral space, I usually have that plant growing, and it will produce seed for the coming season. But that's a tangent, apologies, I'm often one to get on those. What I mean regarding exposure is, how much time do the animals spend in one another's company? How much of that time is unsupervised? I'm personally of the view that these animals should be supervised when kept together, so from my perspective, a common area is fine, but you should be there watching their interactions to ensure that nothing potentially damaging occurs to one or the other animals.

I place my males together a few days out of brumation to engage in ritual combat. This gets their man juices going, inclines them to be more enthusiastic breeders. Basically, you get them fighting, then remove both of them from the fight before there is a clear winner and before anyone gets hurt, and both males come to the conclusion that they won the fight. Both of them think they're big and bad, that the opponent was the coward who ran. I'm not sure exactly how this mechanism operates, the biology of it, but I have noticed that my males fertilize many more eggs when they've had a few bouts beforehand. Apologies, this is a somewhat related tangent, but my point is that even tortoises who hate each other on first sniff, who get in each other's faces like a couple of MMA fighters squaring off, can be allowed some time together so long as that time is supervised, and that that is perfectly fine, even beneficial in a certain respect. But the question, again, comes back to level of exposure.

How much time will these animals be spending together. A number of keepers here keep their animals together, but give them a gigantic amount of space in which to roam with numerous sight barriers. This works because all animals within the bounds of the territory can escape from one another should the need arise. What I'm doing isn't really that different. In keeping the animals together in a large space with plenty of hiding places and sight barriers, they are simply lowering the chances that the animals will run into each other and generate conflict. I'm simply lowering those chances to basically zero, ensuring that all conflict and encounters occur within a window that I, as their caretaker, can control.

What kind of tortoises do you have? How big are they? Do you keep them together or separate? Do you have one and are thinking of getting another? All of these things will help me better tailor any advice I may have to offer. But yes, I'm of the opinion that you should keep the animals safe and ensure they spend most of their time on their own. That's how I've been doing things for a while now, and it has worked quite well.

T.G.

Great tip! Thanks a bunch! i own 3 leos atm planning on getting stars later on. Basically its ok with supervision and im ok with that.

 

[tglazie]

Excellent. I've never kept stars, but my uncle owns a bunch of leos. Cool tortoises. He keeps his females together, though he isolates the males. He and I have had some pretty lively debates over care strategies over the years.

T.G.

 

[JanelP]

I have a group of leopards, a group of russians, a group of desert tortoises, a group of RF, a group of YF and a few groups of box turtles. These groups all live outside in fairly large yards. The smallest group is 2.2 RF. They key here is the size of their yards and the amount of sight barriers in their yards.

I like to keep babies in groups because of competition for the food. One sees the other eating and it makes him eat. Sometimes a single baby won't eat, but you put him with others and he eats.

I'm just curious how you have a group of 2.2 RF.............

 

[wellington]

Excellent. I've never kept stars, but my uncle owns a bunch of leos. Cool tortoises. He keeps his females together, though he isolates the males. He and I have had some pretty lively debates over care strategies over the years.

T.G.

So do you promote mixing species? Talking of this joint roaming yard? Asking because some could misunderstand.

 

[Big Charlie]

I'm just curious how you have a group of 2.2 RF.............

I believe it means 2 males and 2 females.

 

[JanelP]

I believe it means 2 males and 2 females.

ok, that makes more sense. thank you for clarification. I'm thinking poor 0.2 RF

 

[Antoni]

Excellent. I've never kept stars, but my uncle owns a bunch of leos. Cool tortoises. He keeps his females together, though he isolates the males. He and I have had some pretty lively debates over care strategies over the years.

T.G.

Lucky, im the only one in my family or group of friends that has this as a hobby no1 wants to talk torty to me. Hense why im active here lol