Kale but not Spinach?

[DoctorCosmonaut]

Kale is okay right? I know not to feed spinach.

 

[chadk]

Spinach is actually OK if fed in small quantities as part of a varied diet.

 

[Itort]

Kale also needs to feed in limited quanities as it also will bind calcium.

 

[Madkins007]

Sprinkle a little calcium on it and feed away- as a part of a varied diet.

Kale has a 2.4:1 Ca: P ratio which is quite good, and only about 0.2 units of oxalic acid (the calcium-binding agent) which is quite low. The traditional problem with kale, cabbage, and other 'brassicas' is that they are low in other nutrients that were thought to contribute to goiters. This is not true when they are used in a healthy diet mix.

Spinach has had a bad rep for years, but it is MOSTLY not deserved. This stuff has a good 2.1:1 Ca: P (anything over 2:1 is good), good levels of vitamins and iron, etc.- but it DOES have a high level of oxalic acid- about .97 units. This amount of oxalic acid reduces the effective Ca: P to about 0.5:1.

We can counter a low Ca: P by offering some high calcium foods (Arugula 3:1, Collards 14.5:1 but with about .45 oxalic acid, dandelions 2.8:1, etc.) or adding a dash of calcium powder. (As long as the tortoises have OK heat, get some D3 in the diet or from light, and are properly hydrated, and you don't get stupid with the amounts, there is almost no risk of overdoing the calcium.)

Here is the MAIN ISSUE: Years ago, a lot of diets were 'just give it some (cabbage, or lettuce, or spinach) and some water and it will be fine.' Dang- if you put almost ANY animal on a very limited selection of food, you are going to get problems. It was not the spinach or cabbage alone causing the problem- it was the lack of a good, varied, balanced diet.

Even the dread ICEBERG LETTUCE is OK in small amounts in a varied diet. The stuff has a low Ca: P (0.95:1) but it is high in moisture and nitrogen- and it makes a good 'filler' if the rest of the meal is nutritious. (Remember- in the wild, most tortoises fill up on lots of medium- to low-nutrition foods rather than the nutrient-rich stuff we often offer.)

 

[lezsolt]

Is there a web page with all this Ca: P data? I'm very curious about the Ca: P ratios of several plants like white clover, chicory, chickweed, etc.

 

[egyptiandan]

The thing is with plants that have an oxalic acid content is that the oxalic acid binds with calcium. This makes calcium oxalate which contributes to stone production. So as well as making the calcium unavailable, it can cause your tortoise to form stones when fed. So you really do have to watch out how much plant material you feed that has an oxalic acid content. I wouldn't feed anything with a medium to high content more than once a week, if that much.
They have done Ca/P ratios for plants we eat, but you will be hard pressed to find data on the ratios of plants we don't eat.

Danny

 

[purpod]

Great thread: thanx to Danny & Madkins for their contributions ~

Be well,
Purpod

 

[Crazy1]

Here are some sites with CA ratio listed
http://www.tortoise.org/general/tntdiet.html
http://www.provet.co.uk/petfacts/healthtips/tortoisefeeding.htm
http://www.turtlestuff.com/avoidthese.html

 

[Madkins007]

The thing is with plants that have an oxalic acid content is that the oxalic acid binds with calcium. This makes calcium oxalate which contributes to stone production. So as well as making the calcium unavailable, it can cause your tortoise to form stones when fed. So you really do have to watch out how much plant material you feed that has an oxalic acid content. I wouldn't feed anything with a medium to high content more than once a week, if that much.
They have done Ca/P ratios for plants we eat, but you will be hard pressed to find data on the ratios of plants we don't eat.

Danny

Stones: According to Dr. Mader, etc., it is not the presence of the calcium oxalates that are the main risk in stones, it is dehydration working on the calcium in various forms in the system. Other contributers to stones are thought to be vitamin A deficiency, too much animal protein in herbivores, etc.

Regarding oxalic acid/calcium oxalates- most reports of their contribution to health problems refer to HIGH levels, as are found in rhubarb leaves, deiffenbachia, etc. These reports consider spinach to have a medium level.

Mike Pingleton makes an interesting observation in his new book- we make a lot of comments about the food our reptiles eat that we would NEVER make for human food. You don't skip spinach in your salad because of oxalates, or worry that too much cole slaw is going to give you goiter.

Why don't we worry about this stuff- balance and variety. Good hydration (we are really not as dehydrated as the '8 big glasses of water a day' fadists would suggest), etc.

Why doesn't this work for tortoises? Actually, as far as we can tell, it does.


Ca ratios of non-human foods: It takes some work, but I have found the ratios and other info on a lot of plants that are used in other countries, or that are used for domesticated animals, etc.

The Ca of some hays are:
- Red clover- 3.1:1
- Fescue- 1.4:1
I have not looked for the others, but I will.

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

Sprinkle a little calcium on it and feed away- as a part of a varied diet.

Kale has a 2.4:1 Ca: P ratio which is quite good, and only about 0.2 units of oxalic acid (the calcium-binding agent) which is quite low. The traditional problem with kale, cabbage, and other 'brassicas' is that they are low in other nutrients that were thought to contribute to goiters. This is not true when they are used in a healthy diet mix.

Spinach has had a bad rep for years, but it is MOSTLY not deserved. This stuff has a good 2.1:1 Ca: P (anything over 2:1 is good), good levels of vitamins and iron, etc.- but it DOES have a high level of oxalic acid- about .97 units. This amount of oxalic acid reduces the effective Ca: P to about 0.5:1.

We can counter a low Ca: P by offering some high calcium foods (Arugula 3:1, Collards 14.5:1 but with about .45 oxalic acid, dandelions 2.8:1, etc.) or adding a dash of calcium powder. (As long as the tortoises have OK heat, get some D3 in the diet or from light, and are properly hydrated, and you don't get stupid with the amounts, there is almost no risk of overdoing the calcium.)

Here is the MAIN ISSUE: Years ago, a lot of diets were 'just give it some (cabbage, or lettuce, or spinach) and some water and it will be fine.' Dang- if you put almost ANY animal on a very limited selection of food, you are going to get problems. It was not the spinach or cabbage alone causing the problem- it was the lack of a good, varied, balanced diet.

Even the dread ICEBERG LETTUCE is OK in small amounts in a varied diet. The stuff has a low Ca: P (0.95:1) but it is high in moisture and nitrogen- and it makes a good 'filler' if the rest of the meal is nutritious. (Remember- in the wild, most tortoises fill up on lots of medium- to low-nutrition foods rather than the nutrient-rich stuff we often offer.)

Well if the problem is a variety of other nutrients that aren't present in kale, I always feed the kale with fruit (and occasional veggies) and a multivitamin (2:1 powder) on top. Does that compensate?

 

[tortoisenerd]

For kale the goiter issue would worry me more than the vitamins. In the wild tort eat a very nutrient poor diet. I personally do not use a vitamin supplement as it is easy to over supplement and some vitamins are fat soluble and can become toxic in high quantities...it's difficult to know what quantity that will be. I feed kale in small amounts as the little one loves it, or else I'd probably even skip it.

 

[Madkins007]

Variety, variety, variety. The main thing kale is short on is iodine, which can be relieved by a pinch of salt- and iodine is not a huge need anyway.

In my own mind, I have three 'categories' of foods- really good, good, and OK. Spinach and kale rank in the OK group. I try to offer mostly really good stuff, and rotate in good and OK stuff. This week, for example, I am offering Escarole lettuce and kale. Last week, it was turnip greens and some curly lettuce. I put a pinch of calcium on the kale and lettuce.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Do you ever use spring mix Madkins?

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

spring mix? Like an organic salad mix?

 

[Crazy1]

Yep that is what spring mix is and it is great for torts especially little ones. easy to find a mix of greens and then supplement with other weeds. I feed kale and spinach to my adult Greeks and DT but I also give them Kelp which adds the Iodine without adding the processed salt. They seem to love the Kelp. I can get it in dried sheets at the petstores. I do however not feed kale or spinach to my hatchlings (they won't eat kale) or to my sub adults. Madkin funny I too have a list of foods I catorgize as good , ok , only occasionally and NEVER.

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

Great, because I eat the stuff too

 

[tortoisenerd]

Yup! It's the easiest for variety for me and most of us on the forum. I then try to add one or two other higher nutrition greens (my little guy like mustard, dandelion, radish, small amounts of kale, etc). Some butternut squash weekly, whatever I can harvest from my tort food crop, and I call it good!

 

[egyptiandan]

Some interesting reading about oxalic acid. http://growingtaste.com/oxalicacid.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid

Danny

 

[Tortuslvr]

The key to feeding tortoise's is to think of them like your kids, be more concerned about a "varied" diet. You wouldn't feed them the same thing every day. That way if they are missing something from their diet one day perhaps they will get it another day! Mine being outside for the summer have all the grass, weeds and hay they want but about three times a week I take out chopped squash, or collard greens, or tomatoes from the garden, corn what ever it is a treat for them and added vitamins as well. In the winter I buy collard, turnip and mustard greens I rotate them thru out the week and use carrots, green beans, squash and other vegies-fruit for the red foots-for treats. It is always different they don't get bored with it and it gives them different nutrients. A Greasy cheese burger has some value to it, just shouldn't eat one every day, you know?

 

[Madkins007]

Do I feed Spring Mix? Not often- with my 5 torts, they go through a couple heads of greens or lettuces a week, so I just buy a couple different things each time. When the selection is poor, I pop for the mix.

The things I do not like about the mixes are:
- Cost. I feed my torts almost all of a head of lettuce or bunch of greens, and there is little waste. I generally spend about $3-4/week on greens, and would need about 3 bags of most mixes to get the same weight- or about $6-7 a week. Your mileage will vary.
- Calcium. Most of the greens in most bags are low in calcium- they average about 1.5:1, and I want 2:1 average or better. I could add a pinch of calcium to compensate if I wanted to.
- Life. In general, I can get almost 2 weeks from a properly stored batch of greens, while bagged mixes should be used in a few days.

Again- this is MY take on things. None of these is a big issue, and there are certainly 'pros' to the mixes, especially the ones with lots of endive, escarole, and arrugula.

---

Yep that is what spring mix is and it is great for torts especially little ones. easy to find a mix of greens and then supplement with other weeds. I feed kale and spinach to my adult Greeks and DT but I also give them Kelp which adds the Iodine without adding the processed salt. They seem to love the Kelp. I can get it in dried sheets at the petstores. I do however not feed kale or spinach to my hatchlings (they won't eat kale) or to my sub adults. Madkin funny I too have a list of foods I catorgize as good , ok , only occasionally and NEVER.

What's on your NEVER list? (I have a never list as well, and am always curious to compare them!)