Is humidity really good for a baby sully?

[krh11b23]

I agree with Wellington I would also like to see pics of the so called smooth torts kept with non humid conditions, and humid hide.

 

[ascott]

LOL....and now, you are back to the confused state...LOL....this subject will get you as many varied replies as if you dared to throw the word "brumate" out there....

I have to say that to each there own...that to me does not mean that the person choosing is necessarily choosing best based on a torts needs....

I also have to add---I have not heard of a tort dealing with shell rot nor RI that has been kept in an enclosure with a warm humid area/middle ground that has slight humidity fading into a cool dry area....NEVER....however, I have heard of these issues over and over again when the unnatural constant high humidity closed chamber enclosure is used...

I personally believe, in my humble opinion that is, that you should offer a few necessary micro climates within an enclosure to assure a forced captive tort can regulate according to its needs---and not for the simplicity of the keeper---......again, just my personal thought on this....a tort absolutely needs access to a warm humid area along with a lounging space and then a cool dry area--this allows them the ability to get juicied up when then need or a place to allow their shells and lungs dry out when they need to ---all to maintain their needs/health....

I am happy that people have realized that torts (even "arid" species) do require access to some warm humid areas ---but this does not mean the entire enclosure should be that....after all, a baby tort does see daylight and does breath fresh air, their entire entire entire life as a baby is not spent in a dark wet place, but they do spend a good portion of time in that environment---hence, a warm humid hide/humid area is so necessary--but so is a cool dry area

 

[wellington]

Of course that's if your getting the right info and they are actually reading temps and humidity correct. I guess maybe if they aren't doing the closed chamber, hot and humid correctly, they would get a sick tort. Now, according to Toms own words, well postings , he has never had a sick one. I think a lot depends on how reliable the sources are and if they are truthfully reporting the conditions they are actually using and if the equipment they are using to regulate these conditions are accurate. I have never on here, heard of anyone using Toms closed chambers or even the 3/4 closed chamber have a sick tort. Unless I missed that thread of course. We could a
discuss this until the cows come home. Fortunately or unfortunately we all will never agree. Would be nice if some of these other ways had some fact and experiments behind them in detail. I am partial to Tom, he helped me a lot when I first joined. He didn't know me and owed me nothing, but was always there when I needed him. Besides that, he has the proof to back up what he says. Would like to see more threads to back up all the posts saying it doesn't have to be closed chamber, high humidity, etc, etc, etc. to have a smooth tort. Would also like to see the extent of this smoothness.

 

[Millerlite]

Closed chambers arnt bad and is not the only way as a lot of people think. It's actually rather new for hatchling keeping. I will ask a few of my buddies that have sulcatas that are adults that did not get raised in a closed chamber habitat with humidity in the whole enclosure 24/7. He had multiple microclimates and he like me puts tortoises outdoors younger then most would think safe. It's really all it's own, and telling people closed chambers are the only way to go is not right, just like saying no close chamber is the right way. I agree depending on where you live is a huge factor, but living in a dry area it really isn't that hard to keep humidity up. Most people don't have enough substrate to help or plants. The close chamber idea works tho and so far no ill effects, but in few years from now it might be a totally wrong way of caring for a hatchling. Things change so quick in this hobby. One thing everyone seems to agree upon tho is, bigger is always better for tortoises.

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Oh and I'm sure people with closed chambers get sick tortoises with ri and all. Saying a closed chamber is a sure way for your tortoise to not get sick is not true. A tortoise very well can get sick in a closed and open enclosure. About 5-6 years ago air exchange more then just opening a lid was very important, guess not so much anymore, but I still believe in fresh air and that's why outdoors is always best, fresh air, sun, microclimates.

 

[wellington]

I never said, at least not what I meant that the closed chamber was the only way. I agree there may be other ways. i just would like to see these other ways proof and explained in detail. I have seen some threads/post where the person would say they have a smooth tort, never paid attention to a high humidity and thinks their tort doesnt need it to grow smooth, just to find out that person lives in an area with a natural high humidity. I have also seen many, many pictures and post, not necessarily on here, that their tort is smooth, no pyramiding and because its not mountains, they think its smooth, but definitely not smooth. Also, didn't say or meant that they never get sick. Tom has never had a sick one and i have not read a post or thread where a tort was sick and was being house in a closed chamber or even 3/4 closed, with the right temps to go along with the high humidity. Not that it cant happen, but i haven't read or heard it. Illness and pyramiding can also come about by the way they were hatched and housed/raised way before we get them. Everything has to be considered. Not saying other methods don't produce the smooth as Toms torts, just would like to actually see them and know the details of the housing/diet/hydration/soaking, etc. It would be great to have all the details and proof. Would help and save time to refer people to all the threads that have the proof and details to back it up. In the mean time, i will keep referring Toms. i have been here almost two years, and Toms is the only detailed, proofed thread i have seen. I can believe my eyes way more then just typed words..

 

[Tom]

I also have to add---I have not heard of a tort dealing with shell rot nor RI that has been kept in an enclosure with a warm humid area/middle ground that has slight humidity fading into a cool dry area....NEVER....however, I have heard of these issues over and over again when the unnatural constant high humidity closed chamber enclosure is used...

This is incorrect info and bad advice.

I have heard of lots of RIs from young sulcatas that were offered cool areas wet or dry.

There is NOTHING unnatural about constant high temps and high humidity for a SULCATA. In fact that is completely natural and exactly what they live with for their first few months of life in the wild until they retreat underground when the dry season hits. There is no "cool" area for an above ground hatchling sulcata in Africa. This mistaken assumption has led to a lot of sick tortoises.

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I personally believe, in my humble opinion that is, that you should offer a few necessary micro climates within an enclosure to assure a forced captive tort can regulate according to its needs---and not for the simplicity of the keeper---......again, just my personal thought on this....a tort absolutely needs access to a warm humid area along with a lounging space and then a cool dry area--this allows them the ability to get juicied up when then need or a place to allow their shells and lungs dry out when they need to ---all to maintain their needs/health....

This is incorrect thinking too. There are many factors that will cause a captive tortoise to hang out in one area or another of the enclosure, and it might not be the best area for their health.

Again, sulcatas do not need or benefit from a "cool" area, and there is no cool area for them in the wild either until they get bigger and go underground, but even underground, I would estimate temps in the 80s when above ground temps are over 100 every day. In the wild it is never cool or dry for a hatchling sulcata, so I take exception to you telling people that constant warmth and humidity is "un-natural". Not true and this is the sort of incorrect assumption that has lead to many of the problems that we now fight. Further no says to keep the enclosure dark and damp. My enclosures are very well lit during the daytime with basking lamps and with florescent tubes.

Please don't start throwing the "natural" card out there when you don't seem to understand what "natural" is for sulcatas. Feel free to show pics of all the hatchling sulcatas you've raised with the methods you are advocating to this poster. I'be been through a lot to get to this point and I don't want seemingly reputable people moving us backwards.

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The vet told me no, causes respiratory problems so who can I trust?

What are you using for night heat? How about heating and lighting during the day? What are your four temps? Warm side, cool side, basking spot and night? RIs are typically brought on by cool temperatures, usually at night. RIs are not brought on by high humidity, as several people have pointed out.

Your vet is going off the the same old incorrect assumptions that we ALL went off of for about 2 decades. Please invite your vet to come here and either read or join in the conversation. His/her lack of knowledge is doing a continual disservice to his/her tortoise owning clients.

 

[elpatron_jrz]

I changed this vet to another one because i read everthing you guys told me and i told him and his mouth droped so i THANK EVRYONE OF YOU HERE FORE YOUR OPINION AND THE TRUTH THANKS... so im seeing another vet in the same hoapital and he seems to know wats going on ...just to ask you guys MY. Tort is not eeting and has his eyes shut ive been following what tom says idk were i went wrong its so heart brakeing seeing my baby sick :-( thank you all

Sent from my LG-MS695 using TortForum mobile app

 

[FLINTUS]

I personally agree with ascott here. While Tom's methods do appear to work many people have raised tortoises in dry conditions with success. I have recently over the last few days observing many aladabras and radiateds that have been raised in dry conditions with NO PYRAMIDING. I do have photos of some of them from the different places, so will post them up on Monday when I get back. I also personally know a breeder of reds and stars who keeps her tortoises very dry, on sand substrate, and has raised them both up to adults smoothly. As Wellington said, it is all about how you define smooth, but I have seen many pictures on here and other forums of tortoises such as sullies and leopards supposedly raised in hot+humid conditions pyramid. Of course, this also happens with the drier methods as well. As you said, the reason sullies and leopards may experience high humidity is because they make burrows-reminds me of desert torts perhaps? I am willing to bet nobody has ever kept them successfully with forced 80%+ humidity- and it is no doubt beneficial, however they always have a choice. Even my reds have areas of 70% humidity or less in spots, because ultimately they would not be exposed to constant 80%+ humidity. Tom, what are your views on humidity for tortoises in the testudo genus? You say it is beneficial for all tortoises to have 80% humidity, but do you really think it is beneficial for them?

 

[wellington]

It is very dangerous to tell people it's okay to raise them dry putting the pyramiding aside, how about the insides, health of a tortoise raised dry. Also, I have never, ever read where Tom has said every tortoise should be raised with 80% humidity. His threads are for sulcata and leopards. All tortoises will benefit from humidity, each has its own % that is right for them. Also, as Tom has said many times, diet and exercise plays a role into not only the health of a tortoise but the pyramiding. Also, as stated many times, the way the tortoise was incubated, hatched and then raised, before we get them. Also, are temps and humidity being read correctly? Most people new to reptiles will buy the crap at the pet stores. Most of that stuff isn't good or accurate, even lots of the other animal stuff they sell isn't the best. How many times do we recommend not using coil lights, but a newb will read on thread or post that the person used one and had no problems, so they disregard all the ones that had an ill effect from them. Money will make people cheap out of important steps, but you may never hear about that, they will beat around that bush as to not have to admit they didn't listen. I have seen lots of tortoises sold from Arizona call smooth, I cringe, they don't know what smooth is. I have also seen tortoises raised in Florida that are also not smooth, which goes to show, diet is a factor.
Without all the details of these tortoises husbandry that are supposedly raised dry, it is dangerous to say a statement like that. Like I said before, would be great if someone that always has to push another way of raising tortoises without humidity would actually start a detailed thread on their methods and post up the proof.

 

[luvpetz27]

Tom would be a great vet!!

 

[FLINTUS]

It is very dangerous to tell people it's okay to raise them dry putting the pyramiding aside, how about the insides, health of a tortoise raised dry. Also, I have never, ever read where Tom has said every tortoise should be raised with 80% humidity. His threads are for sulcata and leopards. All tortoises will benefit from humidity, each has its own % that is right for them. Also, as Tom has said many times, diet and exercise plays a role into not only the health of a tortoise but the pyramiding. Also, as stated many times, the way the tortoise was incubated, hatched and then raised, before we get them. Also, are temps and humidity being read correctly? Most people new to reptiles will buy the crap at the pet stores. Most of that stuff isn't good or accurate, even lots of the other animal stuff they sell isn't the best. How many times do we recommend not using coil lights, but a newb will read on thread or post that the person used one and had no problems, so they disregard all the ones that had an ill effect from them. Money will make people cheap out of important steps, but you may never hear about that, they will beat around that bush as to not have to admit they didn't listen. I have seen lots of tortoises sold from Arizona call smooth, I cringe, they don't know what smooth is. I have also seen tortoises raised in Florida that are also not smooth, which goes to show, diet is a factor.
Without all the details of these tortoises husbandry that are supposedly raised dry, it is dangerous to say a statement like that. Like I said before, would be great if someone that always has to push another way of raising tortoises without humidity would actually start a detailed thread on their methods and post up the proof.

I thought he said that for the first year, but maybe I'm mixing it up with somebody else? I do agree with most of your post however, and it does appear that some tortoises pyramid anyway despite what is generally agreed as the best care. And as both you and I have said, there are many factors involved. I am not saying do not do the humidity way, however people have kept them dry with success with varying other care, but if you look around I am sure you will be able to find tortoises kept dry with success with the majority of species. For instance, the TT-an organisation which I do not entirely agree with but one of the main helpers in getting tortoise care to where it is- took a study of iberas and found surface humidity often below 20%, and if I remember correctly it was as low as 14%. Now granted, we are not talking about iberas here, but like sullies they will dig down into the soil/sand to maintain moisture and humidity, but will also be found on the surface, I honestly believe there are very few species that could cope with full high humidity long term, but if your method is still working in 50 odd years or so of a tortoises' life then I will retract my statement. Even with my reds I offer lower humidity zones, and that seems to work for them. I have no doubt humidity is important in development of shells, but I think constant high humidity will have bad long term effects, but you're welcome to prove me wrong.

 

[abclements]

Re: RE: Is humidity really good for a baby sully?

[/quote]
I thought he said that for the first year, but maybe I'm mixing it up with somebody else?
[/quote]

Somebody else said that right before Tom posted his thing, so I can see why you thought it was him.

 

[Tom]

I personally agree with ascott here. While Tom's methods do appear to work many people have raised tortoises in dry conditions with success. I have recently over the last few days observing many aladabras and radiateds that have been raised in dry conditions with NO PYRAMIDING. I do have photos of some of them from the different places, so will post them up on Monday when I get back. I also personally know a breeder of reds and stars who keeps her tortoises very dry, on sand substrate, and has raised them both up to adults smoothly. As Wellington said, it is all about how you define smooth, but I have seen many pictures on here and other forums of tortoises such as sullies and leopards supposedly raised in hot+humid conditions pyramid. Of course, this also happens with the drier methods as well. As you said, the reason sullies and leopards may experience high humidity is because they make burrows-reminds me of desert torts perhaps? I am willing to bet nobody has ever kept them successfully with forced 80%+ humidity- and it is no doubt beneficial, however they always have a choice. Even my reds have areas of 70% humidity or less in spots, because ultimately they would not be exposed to constant 80%+ humidity. Tom, what are your views on humidity for tortoises in the testudo genus? You say it is beneficial for all tortoises to have 80% humidity, but do you really think it is beneficial for them?

First off, everyone's definition of "success" is going to be different. I have seen no one "successfully raise sulcatas in dry conditions. Many have made this claim, but when the details are examined, the humidity is found. For example, I've come across two people who live in hot dry areas and claim to raise smooth tortoises dry, while both of them were using evaporative SWAMP coolers to cool their tortoise rooms. Other times they are using wet substrate under a plastic hide, thereby creating a humid hide, all the while claiming a "dry" enclosure. I have raised them truly dry. I KNOW what happens when that is done and I've posted the pics to prove it many times.

Leopards do not make burrows, and I've never said that.

I have also NEVER said that it is beneficial for ALL tortoise species to have 80% humidity. This is a huge mis-quote. Please be careful with this sort of thing. I am very specific about what I have done and what I have not done. I have said that I think all species can benefit from a humid hide. I know that the warm humid method works for leopards because I have done it with over 100 of them. I know it works for sulcatas because I have done it with several hundred of them. I've done it with about a dozen CDT hatchlings and all good there too. I don not have enough experience with other species to comment whether or not it is good for them. I have seen what other people have demonstrated with Stars, RFs, Aldabs, Radiateds, Burmese Stars, and a few others, and it seems to work well for all of these too.

I do not have enough experience raising Testudo hatchlings to comment either. I have never raised them this way, and based on my research of their native environments, and the experience of keepers that I respect, like GB for example, I don't know that I'd want to use the warm humid method for any Testudo. I do however use damp substrate and a humid hide with Testudo, but with an open top, basking light, in a relatively dry room. So far so good. When I gain some more experience, I have have something to say about it, but that is a ways off.

I'd like to see pics and detailed descriptions of the care routine of these "successfully" raised sulcatas you speak of that had the typical dry routine from the time they were hatchlings. I have loads of pics and threads detailing what I am asserting here, so it should be easy to prove me wrong.

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I thought he said that for the first year, but maybe I'm mixing it up with somebody else? I do agree with most of your post however, and it does appear that some tortoises pyramid anyway despite what is generally agreed as the best care. And as both you and I have said, there are many factors involved. I am not saying do not do the humidity way, however people have kept them dry with success with varying other care, but if you look around I am sure you will be able to find tortoises kept dry with success with the majority of species. For instance, the TT-an organisation which I do not entirely agree with but one of the main helpers in getting tortoise care to where it is- took a study of iberas and found surface humidity often below 20%, and if I remember correctly it was as low as 14%. Now granted, we are not talking about iberas here, but like sullies they will dig down into the soil/sand to maintain moisture and humidity, but will also be found on the surface, I honestly believe there are very few species that could cope with full high humidity long term, but if your method is still working in 50 odd years or so of a tortoises' life then I will retract my statement. Even with my reds I offer lower humidity zones, and that seems to work for them. I have no doubt humidity is important in development of shells, but I think constant high humidity will have bad long term effects, but you're welcome to prove me wrong.

Iberias and Sulcatas? That's not even apples and oranges. That's like apples and hamburgers. NOT the same thing. The climate in Iberia is NOT like the climate in the Sahel. I too have seen the studies Andy did on wild Greeks. Neat stuff. Very cool. It has NOTHING to do with successfully raising a smooth healthy sulcata in a North American home. I have very little experience with Greeks. I have never raised a single one from hatchling to adult. I will not be giving anyone advice on the specific environmental parameters for a raising a healthy Greek, unless I'm parroting what some other respected experienced keeper told me. I cannot debate what Greeks need or benefit from, since I have no idea. I CAN debate sulcatas and I won't lose. I have raised them right, wrong and every way in between. Been doing sulcatas for more than 20 years. I have been keeping and raising hatchling sulcatas since the time they first became widely available to the public in the early 90's. I certainly don't know everything, but I know enough to tell you that cool or dry is not what is good for a hatchling sulcata. They can survive all sorts of incorrect, un-natural conditions, but that is not what should be recommended for them.

Understand something. I don't know what I know because I'm some sort of psychic super-genious. I know what I know about sulcatas and leopards from 2 decades of failure and constant obsessive research and study. I have finally found what DOES work and hundreds of people have duplicated my results with the same success here on this forum and elsewhere. My years of failure have shown me very clearly what does NOT work, and that includes cool and/or dry for hatchling sulcatas.

 

[FLINTUS]

Have not had internet for a few days but Tom I would like to apologise for the misquote, I must've been thinking of another person and that is where a lot of my post started from.

 

[EKLC]

A wet tortoise loses heat much quicker than a dry tortoise, and a low body temperature can make a tortoise vulnerable to upper respiratory infection. So I think the belief that wetness causes disease is due to the carelessness with which most people design and monitor their enclosures.

If your house gets chilly at night and your hatchling is on a patch of wet substrate with no supplemental heating, then he will quickly be chilled to the core. That doesn't mean humidity is bad for a tortoise.

I don't think dry conditions are bad for a tortoise either, but the sort of dryness that occurs when a heat lamp desiccates the few inches of substrate in your enclosure is certainly not realistic nor healthy.

It is important to understand the intricacies of habitats, and realize that it is not simply an issue of wet versus dry. On hot and dry days, my tortoises hide in areas that maintain some dampness, even when the soil in their enclosure is bone dry from the sun. At night, if I leave them out until the ambient temperatures are in the low 70's, they are still warm to the touch. It's very hard to reproduce this inside, even with misting and heating elements on thermostats. Indoor enclosures have a tendency to lack diversity in regards to temperature and humidity.

We do see experimentally from the work of Tom and others that warm and humid conditions are easy enough to simulate and produce healthy tortoises. This method also agrees with the natural habitat of sulcatas, at least during the rainy season. That's more than we can say about other methods.

 

[Millerlite]

I always say there are different ways and toms is not the only way. And I'm not saying toms way is bad or wrong in fact I would love to try it cuz it seems like it can make life a little easier. But I do believe in microclimates and outdoors that's exactly what you have micro climates and the tortoises benefit from it clearly. But as said above te very hard to recreate this indoors and that's where toms method comes in and helps a lot of owners especially newer tortoise owners. The problem I have been seeing on this forum is how a lot if people think toms way is the only way to raise a sulcata or leopard tortoise. Which is not correct and saying its wrong to tell people that its not the only way is even crazier. There are a lot of different methods in raising a tortoise, and I bet I can raise a smooth looking tortoise using microclimates. Pyramiding isn't even always a bad thing, yeah it might look bad to some people, and people do try and avoid it, but I would never turn a tortoise away cuz of looks.

 

[FLINTUS]

I always say there are different ways and toms is not the only way. And I'm not saying toms way is bad or wrong in fact I would love to try it cuz it seems like it can make life a little easier. But I do believe in microclimates and outdoors that's exactly what you have micro climates and the tortoises benefit from it clearly. But as said above te very hard to recreate this indoors and that's where toms method comes in and helps a lot of owners especially newer tortoise owners. The problem I have been seeing on this forum is how a lot if people think toms way is the only way to raise a sulcata or leopard tortoise. Which is not correct and saying its wrong to tell people that its not the only way is even crazier. There are a lot of different methods in raising a tortoise, and I bet I can raise a smooth looking tortoise using microclimates. Pyramiding isn't even always a bad thing, yeah it might look bad to some people, and people do try and avoid it, but I would never turn a tortoise away cuz of looks.

Good post. However, I suppose pyramiding shows that your care isn't very good. I'm just not sure constant 80%+ humidity will be good on the insides in the long run.

 

[Tom]

Good post. However, I suppose pyramiding shows that your care isn't very good. I'm just not sure constant 80%+ humidity will be good on the insides in the long run.

People who raise them outdoors in South FL or New Orleans regularly produce smooth healthy tortoises and would tell you that judging from their results and track record, that their tortoises insides are just fine.

For me personally, my indoor closed chambers are maintained at 80%, but my tortoises spend time outside in the dry air every day. Only an hour or so at first, but after a few months, they are outside all day. I have raised hundreds of babies this way now and all the ones that I have been able to keep track of are thriving. My very first two from 2010 are growing and doing very well. I regularly put updates in the "End of Pyramiding" thread.

I can't understand how you or anyone else comes up with the idea that simulating what happens in nature for hatchling sulcatas is going to some how grow them smooth and healthy at first, but then do some sort of long term internal damage. This makes no sense to me, and the preponderance of evidence does not support it.

 

[thereptileenthusiast]

I'm just not sure constant 80%+ humidity will be good on the insides in the long run.

Perhaps we should warn the wild sulcata in the parts of their range that are currently experiencing 84% humidity. They are quite content as this is the time of year they can actually move about above ground. Don't forget that even in the dry season, humidity is still maintained within the burrow. I am still waiting for humidity data for a sulcata burrow in Africa, but I do know that the burrows of desert rodents are anywhere from 2-5x more humid than outside.
Also, while I do not know the normal humidity of the air within a sulcatas lungs, most vertebrates maintain above 80% humidity within the lung. Breathing dryer air results in a loss of vital moisture. Some lizards actually are able to recapture moisture within the nasal passage when exhaling. Sulcatas simply spend most of their time in the humid underground during the dry season.