I'm wanting to get a Redfoot!

[MaddieLynn]

After doing more research, I'm not planning on using a UVB bulb for my Redfoot. However, I do have a question: Redfoot NERD, in your sticky post in the top of this forum about raising Redfoots, I noticed that you said that you said that you

eliminated the UVB that "omnivorous" redfoots don't need because they get the "D" vitamins from the animal protein part of their diet.

This got me to wondering, why then do box turtles need UVB? I know that they eat much more animal protein than Redfoots, and yet they still need it. Does anyone know why?

And now, to kind of steer this thread back to my original question... what do you Redfoot keepers do in the winter? What are your setups like?

 

[TylerStewart]

I have asked, insisted and expected all of the "caresheet" authors to show what their prescribed 'regime' produces year by year from hatchling to 5 years old - none have yet. I've always wondered why.. especially when they are so adamant that theirs is the only and best! (?)

How many times have you and I posted pics of our babies and 3 year olds and 5 year olds???

NERD

Sorry to take it a bit off topic, but can you give us all some examples of the "caresheet authors that are so adamant that theirs is the only and best way to do things?" I don't recall anyone forcing their caresheet on anybody any more than you do (with the help of many followers on this forum).

Like Tom said, there's plenty of UVB in the shade, so just because a tortoise isn't in direct sunlight doesn't mean it's not getting UVB. I've raised plenty of smooth shelled redfoots on (GASP) Mazuri with (GASP) UVB lights in a (GASP) naturally dry climate. One would think that their eyes would have burned out by now with all the (GASP) bad info out there about the damage that UVB does to babies, but all mine see just fine, and my adults live and breed outdoors in 120 degree summers and 4" of annual rainfall with a little help from me.

I, personally, don't document yearly photos of my redfoots and shove them in people's faces on the internet because I have better things to do with my time, and other things to prove.

 

[terryo]

"And now, to kind of steer this thread back to my original question... what do you Redfoot keepers do in the winter? What are your setups like? "


In the winter I keep my cherry head in a planted vivirium. I keep a long tube 5.0 UVB one one side and a heat emitter on the other side. I put a lot of long fibered moss in his hide...wet it squeeze it out and fluff it up. He has to dig his way into it.
I follow Terry K's care sheet for feeding. When he comes out to eat I mist him and the plants until they drip.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

After doing more research, I'm not planning on using a UVB bulb for my Redfoot. However, I do have a question: Redfoot NERD, in your sticky post in the top of this forum about raising Redfoots, I noticed that you said that you said that you

eliminated the UVB that "omnivorous" redfoots don't need because they get the "D" vitamins from the animal protein part of their diet.

This got me to wondering, why then do box turtles need UVB? I know that they eat much more animal protein than Redfoots, and yet they still need it. Does anyone know why?

And now, to kind of steer this thread back to my original question... what do you Redfoot keepers do in the winter? What are your setups like?

I've found/come across box turtles in broad daylight about 10% of the time I've found them 'early' in the morning during or shortly after a night/morning rain. About half of the time they were moving as opposed to just sitting there 'basking'. And yes they stay deep in the forest "most-of-the-time" under shade.

Let's keep in mind that [ in the simplest terms ] UVB has the D3 needed. UVB is NOT the only source of D3. Mushrooms/fungi are a great source that redfoots/box turtles love.. as an example [ in their diet ]. In other words.. it's not the UVB that's needed - it's the D3.

Scroll down about 3/4 the way for pics -

http://www.turtletary.com/redfootcare.htm

Hope this helps...

NERD

 

[chadk]

My boxies live in an outdoor pen and bask in the sun quite often as part of their daily routine. They also eat mostly fish, slugs, snails, worms, and other proteins they either catch or I feed them.

 

[MaddieLynn]

OK, I have a few more questions.

When you talk about feeding your torts 'fruit', do you mean just what most people think of as fruit (such as strawberries, papaya, etc), or are you including things that are technically fruit as well, such as bell peppers? I know that the scientific definition of a fruit is the part of the plant that contains items used for reproduction (AKA seeds).

Where does one get grape leaves? Would wild grape leaves work as well? I know where I can pick some of those.

Last, what would be a good size for an indoor enclosure (tortoise table) for winter? I know that I should start a hatchling in something like a rubbermaid tub, but when I build a table I want to make one that will be a good size for an adult, so I don't keep having to build bigger tables.

 

[Madkins007]

OK, I have a few more questions.

When you talk about feeding your torts 'fruit', do you mean just what most people think of as fruit (such as strawberries, papaya, etc), or are you including things that are technically fruit as well, such as bell peppers? I know that the scientific definition of a fruit is the part of the plant that contains items used for reproduction (AKA seeds).

Where does one get grape leaves? Would wild grape leaves work as well? I know where I can pick some of those.

Last, what would be a good size for an indoor enclosure (tortoise table) for winter? I know that I should start a hatchling in something like a rubbermaid tub, but when I build a table I want to make one that will be a good size for an adult, so I don't keep having to build bigger tables.

Go by the technical definition. Most grocery store fruits are pretty sugary, and their wild fruits are a lot different than most of what we can offer!

Grape leaves are available in the yard or any store with a decent Middle Eastern section.

A good size guideline is 8 shell lengths by 4 shell lengths, or 8' x 4' for an adult Red-foot, bigger is better, especially if you have more than 1.

 

[Madkins007]

I KNOW I should not reply, and I apologize to everyone else for going off track, but..

Mark just exactly what is the point you are trying to make here? How many redfoot tortoises do you [ and the greastest majority of anyone that would read anything said on this forum ] personally have that are breeding adult size that you personally have observed 'basking' = laying out in the sun for hours on end soaking up UVB to balance the needs they don't get from their diet? Does it ever occur to anybody that this doesn't exist? These "researchers" are not the "all-knowing" only-experienced humans on the planet.. I don't care how many decades and thousands of animals they have been doing what they do and have observed!

I am simply trying to correct an erroneous impression that SOME people have been making that Red-foots do not bask,period, that they all live in the forest, period, that they don't need UVB, period, etc. when the research shows either otherwise or is inconclusive.

And why is it that the researchers are wrong, even if they have done it for decades and seen thousands of tortoises, and you are right with your more limited experience?

Let's bring this deal HOME to where 99.9% of us live and maintain these creatures...... HUH???

Mark are you talking out of both sides of your mouth or referencing those that do... first they bask out in the open and then "Few tortoises spend a lot of time out in the open, period." - was that a typo? And now we [ or in particular jackrat that is in south Atkansas ] here in the Northern hemisphere have a "better" atmosphere than where they originate or we feed them better so they don't have to do any other of these things that you "quote/have researched" others saying redfoots do and need?!

YOU defined basking as being an hours long activity- no one else on Earth does. Basking does not take all day- there is plenty of time to bask, eat, and hide.

And I don't say they NEED UVB- but evidence suggests they do better with it. More research is needed here- do they use D2 as effectively? (some animals cannot use D3 at all) What is the correct dosage of D3/UVB needed?

Question- where did you get the idea they get 'all they need from their diet'? That is a frequently repeated statement with dang little proof to back it up.

And you are encoraged to not say anything about "photography skills". Taking pictures of well formed redfoots as a result of "proper care regimes" has absolutely nothing to do with "photography skills".. you don't hear me asking about yours or anyone elses do you?

You have great photography skills, many of us don't. A good photographer can make a blah scene look wonderful, and a mediocre photographer can make a beautiful scene look blah. Glamor photography compared to vacation snapshots. I'm not claiming you Photoshop your stuff for better results.

Skills matter. After all, you have said many times that you are not a great typist and dislike emailing. You have often claimed, when challenged, that we just misunderstood you in some way. You like to photograph and do not like to write, I am the opposite- both playing to our skills.

Your babies are very nice, but they are not super-torts. Other breeders accomplish the same goals, even if they do not have beautiful photos to 'prove' it. My first tortoise, Mylo, from a pet shop, was every bit as nice as either of the pretty babies you sent me, and I'd bet that whoever bred Mylo never heard of your care plan.

You are not the only person getting these results. You are one of the few HERE doing so, but this is not the entire tortoise hobbyist world.

And "evidence doesn't prove anything"? Now "a picture is worth a thousand words" doesn't mean anything either??? ( does it? )

That is just a cliche- it simply means it is easier to show some things than to talk about them. A photo only proves that light hit a sensitive film in a certain way. If photos equaled proof, we would 'know' there were UFOs and Bigfoot.

And worst of all.. all of this "research" is nothing more than what anyone willing to spend the time can accomplish! And anyone with even a few years [ or more? ] of 'hands-on' experience would find a great deal of.. ambiguous at best!

Huh?

The problem with one guy with years of experience is that whatever he discovers is only guaranteed to work for him. You have a great method that works fine for a guy in Kentucky (is it Kentucky- I apologize that I cannot remember for sure) with your exact set up. You live in a place blessed with a beautiful climate and other factors- that does not mean results will be the same in other places.

There are some forums on the net that really, really disagree with you and have legitimate concerns about your teachings and program. There are also people who did not have much luck who said they followed your program to the letter. I am not going to suggest that you are to blame in any way because I know there can be many factors involved, but it does suggest that no one program will work for everybody equally well.

Research- like the research you did by asking every person you could find in the early days- offers us a better rounded picture. Sure, some of the data is confusing, so what? A good researcher deals with it and tries to figure out the kernels of truth.

Now, let me get this straight- research is nothing more than what hands-on experience- over time- will teach you? Is there a reason someone should not do the research first and save themselves years of heartache- like the research you did to get started?

So none of these things that I have legimately asked about, stated and/or have questioned are not worth considering or studying or doing any 'scientific research' on. WHY???

Again, huh? Any question is worthy of research, as long as the research is valid. Asking for a bunch of photos, for example, is not really research.

Are my questions too challenging.. or might prove these "LONG-TERM" scientist/authors in error where they might have to admit they have been wrong or mis-informed or created their own "herp-theology" so they can have recognition or sell copy. How much of this info is outdated/been observed as "just not true"?

Boy, THAT's the pot calling the kettle black. You have also shown that you have a herp-theology that you hold and preach, and defend aggressively without any hint that there is a chance any element is wrong- until you are challenged, then you suddenly start adding little comments like 'but that is just my opinion' for a while.

A legimate and objective response or answer will be most appreciated Mark. You have challenged too many too long.. with how much "hands-on" personal experience yourself.

You know I am not afraid to respond or speak up for myself. You did not need to challenge me to reply.

Keeping torts and other herps on and off since 1965, researching herps aggressively since 1978, newsletter editor of the local herp journal for two years with many articles republished in other journals, published tortoise care article in a national zoo-keepers magazine, herp resource person for local nature center, local field researcher, yada yada yada. I have not bred Red-foots yet, but I did not just fall off the truck yesterday.

You put a LOT of emphasis on your limited (compared to many, many others) hands-on experience. As stated, hands-on is great, but does not mean you are right, perfect, etc. I freely admit, however, that you are good at breeding Red-foots.

I am NOT discounting the need and value of "researching" info. I DO encourage recent sound evidence and photos from those that have experience with how to.. and how it relates to in our back-yard.

But that IS NOT RESEARCH! You discount real research every chance you get. You belittle giants in the field without knowing squat about them- you did it in your reply above. You USE research yourself- you polled keepers, you read the articles- like Fife's on humidity, and you learned from it, then you poo-poo it otherwise.

Remember it only takes money to be published Mark.. in fact in some caes when someone IS published they might even get paid for it.

Huh? Are you insinuating that Pritchard or Mader or Moscovitz PAID to have their things published?????? Did you just insult our own Ed??????

Nothing stated above is in anyway a direct assault on anyone. The above are my sincere concerns and are in no way related to TortoiseForum.org. directly or indirectly.

NERD

It is indeed a direct assault- on me and many others. Luckily, I respect you as a person well enough and your contributions to the hobby to realize that while you are a good breeder and a great photographer, you are also out of your depth and comfort zone when it comes to some of this stuff.

I also know that I can be and have been wrong, and have changed what I say to reflect that. Show me wrong on any of the key points in this discussion and I will change my tune and apologize. Basking, ecosystems, UV needs- show me the results of any valid study that follows the basic rules of science, and I will back off.

But DO NOT claim that you know you are right because it works for you- that is not how this sort of thing works- you do not get to make up your own rules and terms.

 

[cdmay]

Not to throw gasoline on the fire but I felt that a couple of things should be pointed out here. NERD makes this statement:

How many redfoot tortoises do you and the greastest majority of anyone that would read anything said on this forum personally have that are breeding adult size that you personally have observed 'basking' = laying out in the sun for hours on end soaking up UVB to balance the needs they don't get from their diet? Does it ever occur to anybody that this doesn't exist? These "researchers" are not the "all-knowing" only-experienced humans on the planet.. I don't care how many decades and thousands of animals they have been doing what they do and have observed!

I'm sorry but I don't think anyone has ever claimed that red foots bask 'for hours on end'. This seems to be a deliberate twisting of information to make it sound less credible.
Also, the statement about not caring about how many decades and thousands of animals a 'researcher' has observed is blatantly idiotic. It would be like me saying "Those folks at NASA don't know squat about space! Neither do those clowns who operate the Hubble Telescope. Why, I've learned way more about the universe by looking through binoculars in my back yard at night!"
Terry, you have learned a lot from your back yard breeding but sheesh....,


Remember it only takes money to be published
Mark.. in fact in some caes when someone IS published they might even get paid for it.

This last statement also raises some eyebrows. For someone who constantly refers newbies to his website, WHERE YOU SELL YOUR HATCHLINGS, you shouldn't bring up the subject of making money on tortoises. In addition, you often post photos of your hatchlings and then add statements such as, "This one will be available for sale soon", or words to that effect. These obvious cases of using the Tortoise Forum for your personal marketing makes you the last person to snipe at people for profiting from anything to do with tortoises.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

No wonder my wife thinks we're all a bunch of little kids pointing our fingers at each other and making statements out of context and reading things into statements that makes the other guy not only look or sound like a fool but actually accuses them of such. How is this any different than any other "forum" out there guys?

Does anyone ever ask for a clarification of a statement guys?

NERD

 

[goReptiles]

I'm with cdmay.... Not to add fuel to the fire, but Terry K. you fuss about people claiming to be experts, and even say "they are so adamant that theirs is the only and best!"

You are a pot calling a kettle black, as you think your caresheet is the best and only way to raise red foots...

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I'm with cdmay.... Not to add fuel to the fire, but Terry K. you fuss about people claiming to be experts, and even say "they are so adamant that theirs is the only and best!"

You are a pot calling a kettle black, as you think your caresheet is the best and only way to raise red foots...

Whitney, Terry O is the one that said "they are so adamant that theirs is the only and best!" ( I was quoting her? )

And she and others have simply stated the results they get and have gotten from it. Not once have I claimed it was the best and only. The closest I've come is "If you want yours to look like this.. here's how to do it".

I can't dictate how anyone 'interprets' what anyone says.. now can I? Maybe others do?

NERD

 

[Madkins007]

No wonder my wife thinks we're all a bunch of little kids pointing our fingers at each other and making statements out of context and reading things into statements that makes the other guy not only look or sound like a fool but actually accuses them of such. How is this any different than any other "forum" out there guys?

Does anyone ever ask for a clarification of a statement guys?

NERD

Um... I made a couple of statements that I collaborated with sources and references in a pretty calm tone, and made just to clarify some other statements. While the original statements were the result of personal observation by the poster in the field (which I am massively jealous of), they did not jive with what many other people have seen and studied.

'Some other person' jumped in and started making heated and inflammatory comments and accusations. That person did not ask ME for clarification of statements, but launched a rather lengthy attack on me and some others and dared me to respond.

I'm sorry it devolved into a thing like this, but if the 'other person' would have phrased his post in a different way, this would not have happened. It is not a matter of how other people 'interpreted' his post- it is the tone and language he chose to use in his post- an element completely in his control.

However, I DID respond to the challenge and really should not have, since I knew how it would turn out. For my role in that, I sincerely apologize to the rest of the people in this thread.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

No wonder my wife thinks we're all a bunch of little kids pointing our fingers at each other and making statements out of context and reading things into statements that makes the other guy not only look or sound like a fool but actually accuses them of such. How is this any different than any other "forum" out there guys?

Does anyone ever ask for a clarification of a statement guys?

NERD

Um... I made a couple of statements that I collaborated with sources and references in a pretty calm tone, and made just to clarify some other statements. While the original statements were the result of personal observation by the poster in the field (which I am massively jealous of), they did not jive with what many other people have seen and studied.

'Some other person' jumped in and started making heated and inflammatory comments and accusations. That person did not ask ME for clarification of statements, but launched a rather lengthy attack on me and some others and dared me to respond.

I'm sorry it devolved into a thing like this, but if the 'other person' would have phrased his post in a different way, this would not have happened. It is not a matter of how other people 'interpreted' his post- it is the tone and language he chose to use in his post- an element completely in his control.

However, I DID respond to the challenge and really should not have, since I knew how it would turn out. For my role in that, I sincerely apologize to the rest of the people in this thread.

Mark I said "we're all".. that means ALL of us.. me and thee included!

How does anyone discern a tone from the written word? Seriously.. I'm asking? I ask questions.. I simply ask for simple straight answers?

Mark you didn't and/or have ever written anything you need to apologize for.. especially this one.

Guys I write in "satirical euphemism's".. so if you have any doubt what I'm saying just ask - no need to go off or get out of character or make left-handed subtle remarks.... like we all do at times.. or think that I feel that I'm challenged - I don't feel I'm challenged, why should I.. or anyone.. feel challenged? Being challenged gives you an opportunity to explain further to make sure there is in fact no misunderstanding.. isn't that true?

I'm asking.. simple Q?

BTW.. in case anyone was wondering what a euphemism is:

"Substitution of a mild or roundabout word or expression for another felt to be too blunt or painful".

Funk & Wagnalls - Standard Encyclopedic Dictionary - 1975

I'm being funny and 'calm and cool' guys - see why I take high-blood pressure meds?

NERD