Hybrid?

[Gelato]

Wondering if this is a mixed of gpp and gpb ? the plastron looks like gpp

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't see it. Looks like Babcock to me.

 

[diamondbp]

It looks very very babcocki. Hybrid is a term used between two totally different species successfully breeding.

 

[Tom]

There is really no way to tell by looking.

In all likelihood, it is a mix of leopards from more than one place in their range.

 

[Gelato]

thanks for replying!! i raise this question as I this leo's plastron is quite different from my other babcocki, others plastron are plain, and this one got streaks/ spots on it

 

[diamondbp]

Some of my pardalis have very spotted plastrons while others don't. I'm not sure whether that trait is isolated to South African specimens but I wouldn't think that to be the case. It's likely just more common in South African specimens than their northern counterparts. Below are some of my South African plastrons

 

[Neal]

I can't say for sure, but I don't think the plastron markings are only seen on the Soth African varients. You have the normal varient and a good looking specimen

 

[Markw84]

I can't say for sure, but I don't think the plastron markings are only seen on the Soth African varients. You have the normal varient and a good looking specimen

Interesting. I know in water turtles, plastron markings are a key indicator in identifying subspecies and identifying degree of intergrades. Not with leopard tortoises though?? ( I've not dealt with pardalis, just babcocki, but would love to.)

 

[Tom]

Interesting. I know in water turtles, plastron markings are a key indicator in identifying subspecies and identifying degree of intergrades. Not with leopard tortoises though?? ( I've not dealt with pardalis, just babcocki, but would love to.)

You'd be the perfect person for this. The South Africans are very sulcata like in appetite and behavior. They are bold and fearless and sometimes even more so than sulcatas. They eat hay and grass like a sulcata, but they don't dig like a sulcata. They get bigger than normal leopards, but not so big that one person can't move them around.

I've got a friend with babies now if you want some, or I will have some in another year. Yvonne is sitting on some eggs right now too.

 

[Markw84]

Thanks! I'd like to know more about that. But might not be ready until I build another tortoise nursery I could devote to Leopards this spring.

 

[Neal]

Interesting. I know in water turtles, plastron markings are a key indicator in identifying subspecies and identifying degree of intergrades. Not with leopard tortoises though?? ( I've not dealt with pardalis, just babcocki, but would love to.)

There are no subspecies of leopard tortoises, only geographic variants (Hoping I have my terminology correct, @Will ).

There is a lot of variability throughout their range in terms of physical characteristics, and to my knowledge no sort of study or article exists in any form that would provide substantive support for assigning physical characteristics to a specific locality. Those of us deep in the leopard faction of the tortoise hobby like to distinguish the Pardalis - South African Leopards from the rest because their lineage can be reasonably traced to their place of origin. There are general characteristics that are commonly seen in the SA variant and not usually in the other type, but it's not completely perfect in every case so distinguishing the two is very difficult unless you have reliable data about its history.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

@Neal is correct the authors of the paper that suggest there are no subspecies used microscopic genetic material, nothing you can see with your eyes. Further they did not even describe any particular physical attributes.

I tend to think in addition to the very few captive colonies with known histories, breeders are intentionally or inadvertently selecting in such a way as to exaggerate the physical attributes that distinguish various populations.

 

[diamondbp]

@Neal is correct the authors of the paper that suggest there are no subspecies used microscopic genetic material, nothing you can see with your eyes. Further they did not even describe any particular physical attributes.

I tend to think in addition to the very few captive colonies with known histories, breeders are intentionally or inadvertently selecting in such a way as to exaggerate the physical attributes that distinguish various populations.

Interesting perspective on the breeders selection. I bet it's true to some degree because that mentality is quite common amongst water turtles (ex. Diamonback terrapins) and other common captive breed turtles. The babies that have the "expected/desired" characteristics for their subspecies are commonly put into breeding projects where the unusual babies that might exhibit an undesired mix of characteristics are excluded.

Can you expound on any known cases of this with Leopards from certain ranges?

I had the opportunity to buy a "spotless" p.p years ago that was full p.p. But didn't exhibit the "usual" double dot vertebral scutes for that variety. While others may have shied away from purchasing it, considering it undesirable, I thought it was cool to see another end of the spectrum for the South African variety. Now that it has grown some no one could deny how p.p. it is despite the lacking of that one common trait.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Interesting perspective on the breeders selection. I bet it's true to some degree because that mentality is quite common amongst water turtles (ex. Diamonback terrapins) and other common captive breed turtles. The babies that have the "expected/desired" characteristics for their subspecies are commonly put into breeding projects where the unusual babies that might exhibit an undesired mix of characteristics are excluded.

Can you expound on any known cases of this with Leopards from certain ranges?

WANDA.

 

[diamondbp]

WANDA.

Ah true. Here are the pics I forgot to attach of the "spotless" p.p. I was talking about

 

[Markw84]

So are the eliminating the pardalis babcocki scientific naming? Since in scientific naming protocol the babcocki refers to the subspecies, pardalis the nominate species.

 

[Neal]

It has been some time since I have reviewed the official taxonomy list, but if memory serves me right, they did eliminate babcocki and it is now officially Stigmochelys Pardalis.
@Will , sorry to page you again but you were the first name that popped in my head as someone who would have a more accurate answer than what I have provided.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

It has been some time since I have reviewed the official taxonomy list, but if memory serves me right, they did eliminate babcocki and it is now officially Stigmochelys Pardalis.
@Will , sorry to page you again but you were the first name that popped in my head as someone who would have a more accurate answer than what I have provided.

Yeap, they are all S. pardalis so everyone who sells "true" pardalis are being honest.

 

[Neal]

I hope the attached file shows up, but this is what I was able to find in a cursory search. Page 40 shows the S. Pardalis reference. The document indicates this information was updated in 2012, and I have run out of time on my lunch break to research if an updated list has been completed.

Please note that I have not performed any research personally to determine how official or authoritative this checklist is, but I have pulled it from a trusted source so I feel comfortable sharing this with this disclaimer.

 

[Markw84]

Thanks Neal & Will I still have trouble remembering the Stigmochelys. Used Geochelone so long.