Hoping for better luck this year

[Yvonne G]

So last week end we had a pretty big rain storm. The day time temps have been very pleasant, however its still dipping down into the '30's at night. I lock all the tortoises in their sheds at night.

Last fall, as the leaves fell off the trees, I hauled them into the Manouria pen and dumped them. I filled up the little "cave" that the females like to make their nest in and put a sheet of plywood in front of the doorway, staking it in place to hold it. If I don't block it off, they won't go into the warm shed at night.

Went out to do my evening chores last night and Medea, my biggest Mep girl was scraping leaf litter. You can see the "rub" marks on her carapace where the male has been breeding her. She had knocked down the plywood. You can't really tell from the picture, but she's pushing it backwards with her back leg and then she sweeps it behind her with a front leg:

I went in the house and turned on the weather channel. Its supposed to be 45 tonight. Now, in the past, when they've nested this early in the year (cold weather), I've let them go about their business during the day, but have always picked them up and put them into the shed at night. I figured 45F wasn't all that cold, so I decided to allow her to stay out. I went out after dark to see what she was doing and she is on the nest for the night:

In all the years that I've been trying to hatch Manouria eggs, at first I had problems with the nesting medium, but my biggest problem is after the eggs are placed into the incubator. They quite quickly start to grow mold, then bugs, then they collapse and start to stink.

 

[Benjamin]

Tom had posted about manouria incubation not long ago. The only manouria eggs I have tried to incubate ended as you describe .
Good luck, and 45F is not too cold. Mine had a few nights in the mid 30's this past winter. They are all active and feeding now being manouria.

 

[tortoises101]

What an interesting tortoise.

 

[dmmj]

Good luck, maybe her and the leos should get together and talk shop so to speak.

 

[Tom]

Did you see this, Yvonne?

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Manouria-emys-Incubation#axzz1pmV10W8r

Hmmm... Bugs and mold. Sounds like not enough airflow could cause the mold. Where are the bugs coming from? Can you put the incubator somewhere where the bugs aren't? What kind of bugs? I really want you to have success this year!

Calling my friend again to get solutions for your specific problems.

 

[Yvonne G]

The bugs are little gnats. I don't know where they come from, but you first see the mold, then teeny, tiny maggots on the outside of the egg, which turn into gnats a little bigger than the black kind that come from too-wet soil, but smaller than the fruit fly gnats.

This last batch (last year) I nestled the eggs down into moist vermiculite that was spread all over the bottom of the incubator. But it still happened. I've tried having the eggs touching, I've tried them not touching. Actually in the past 15 or 20 years, I've just about tried everything there is to try.

This time I'm going to wash the eggs, something I've never done because I thought the mucous coating was a sort of protection for the egg. Then I'm going to use the little sandwich box with lid and vermiculite. I don't know how you get a shoe box to fit inside your incubator. The sides of a shoe box are too tall for my incubators. The only plastic box I've found to fit is the little sandwich-sized boxes. And even though I got all males at 86F degrees I'm going to cool the temp a bit and see if that helps the mold, etc.

 

[Laura]

have you tried leaving them in the nest?
washing the eggs. something about temperture.. use warm water i think.. but Im not sure.. my friend does chicken eggs for sale and rinses them. but doesnt want to break that protective seal...

 

[Tom]

My Hovabators will fit normal sized plastic shoe boxes. My little giant will not. I have a couple of different low side plastic tubs that I use for the Little Giants. One of them is a "tupperware" style box for deviled eggs. I can fit 24 eggs in it and it fills the incubator perfectly.

There is some subtle detail missing from what you are doing. I only have those substrate flies in an around my animal enclosures and roach bins. If you put the incubator somewhere else in the house, or at a friend or neighbors house, it should hold them off.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Laura:

I can't leave the eggs in the nest because as soon as one female is finished using that nest, the next female steps up to the plate.

 

[nicoleandrocky]

hope everything is well !!!

 

[Tom]

Well he said that with everything that you are doing that they shouldn't be going bad. A possibility is that a few go bad and take the rest with them. He suggested that you set up two incubators. Check and candle the eggs frequently, at least daily, and chuck any that even remotely seem bad. If one is questionable or not clearly showing signs of development then move it to the "B" incubator.

He thinks that if you are doing everything right and they are still incubating then they might just not be fertile or viable. He also suggested having another person who has successfully hatched lots of eggs give some a try. Anybody up there near you that could try to incubate some eggs for you? I remember a Jill with the pancakes. It is my suspicion that there is just some small detail that you are doing differently that is making a difference. I don't know what it could be. You are obviously experienced and know what you are doing. All the obvious things seem to be covered. You've experimented with a bunch of other factors and yet still not had success. If I had the time, I'd volunteer to drive up and get a batch to try.

I'm perplexed by the whole thing. I can only imagine your frustration.

 

[Jacqui]

This is your year for success Yvonne, I can feel it!

 

[harris]

Fingers crossed!! It's interesting they prefer to build their nest under shelter. For the first time since I've had my (juvenile) group I had one over this Winter show signs of the nest building, and she does it under her hide canopy.

 

[Yvonne G]

Well, my gosh...I guess I should read the material I pay for. Cleaning out my files and was just glancing through old copies of the Radiata and found an article titled The Hump-backed Fly (Phoridae) as a Risk to Successful Incubation.

And lo and behold!!! The pictures are the stupid bugs that I find in my incubator!!!

I won't copy the whole article here (too much typing, I don't have a scanner), but here is the most salient part :

The smell of decomposition that one or more spoiled eggs exude during the early stages of decay is likely to go unnoticed, but may already be strong enough to attract various species of carrion flies (Calliphoridae). If these flies then manage to invade the incubator, they will lay their eggs on perished or infertile reptile eggs. With the environment offering favourable conditions in the foru of high temperatures and high relative humidity, hthese fly eggs will develop very rapidly and soon hatch. the emerging larvae are small enough to enter the spoiled egg through the tiniesst of openins and will feast on its contents.

The article goes on to say they might even eat fertile eggs and babies.

The article tells one how to trap the flies also.

I'll see if I can find someone with a scanner and get the article into the computer for us.

 

[JacksonR]

You could make a fly trap based on the "minnow traps" people make for fish. using a plastic bottle with bait of some sort.

 

[wildak]

Have you ever thought of a mini fridge incubator ? They're really easy to make. I think they may allow more oxygen in and around the eggs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KduFKCaFJIE This is not me just one of many on youtube I found just now. I use the wide heat tape and would clean the incubator with Nolvalsan and apply bioshield to help with mold and bacteria. http://beanfarm.com/index.php?cPath=1199_1202

They sell ready made ones like this http://www.bigappleherp.com/Accu-Temp-6000-Reptile-Incubator-Digital-Reptile-Incubator $159

Just some ideas that you may have already tried. I wish you the best of luck.

Bryan

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Maybe tape a sticky trap inside the incubator for flys ???? Or just put a few anoles in their with the eggs lol.

 

[Yvonne G]

Thanks for the ideas. I just ordered the 6000 incubator online. It says it ships in 2 days, and she's still working on her nest, so I should be ok. I don't know why I never invested in a better incubator before this. But the Little Giant has worked fine for other types of tortoise eggs.

 

[dmmj]

I am excited to see how this all turns out.

 

[wellington]

Good luck. Hoping for pics of little babies in a few months. Keeping fingers crossed

 

[Yvonne G]

Well, mother nature is playing right into our hands. Its raining today. I'm not sure, because she doesn't get far enough away from the nest for me to check, but I THINK she laid eggs yesterday. She had a bunch of leaf litter on her carapace, and when this particular female lays eggs, she completely buries herself in the pile.