His Royal Lumpiness (for Stephanie, and well, anyone else who would like to see)

[Stephanie Logan]

Here is an exchange between EJ and me in a recent thread Yvonne started called Pyramiding with MBD. It's now a sticky in the General Tortoise Discussion section, if you want to read the whole discussion.

"So, I get that a pyramided tortoise does not necessarily have MBD. Are the conditions that lead to pyramiding similar to those that lead to MBD? Are pyramided tortoises more likely than non-pyramided tortoises to have MBD?

What are the symptoms of MBD, and what does a tortoise afflicted with MBD look like?

I saw a photo on here once of a tortoise with sort of a hunchback shell that someone said may have MBD.

I am assuming that the condition of Metabolic Bone Disease is more serious to the tortoise's health than pyramiding. How is MBD diagnosed and what, if any, are the treatments?"
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That was me. Here is Ed's response:

RE: pyramiding
I don't think so because I believe that there are two totally different physical mechanisms involved one is the laying down of the bone and the other is the bone growing... they are not the same. You can have bone growth without calcium... this is what leads to the porous bone. The bone is constantly in flux.

I believe that it is the keratin layer that is the what causes the pyramiding because it does not allow the bone to grow out.

There is the obvious malformed shell... not necessarily pyramiding. The legs cannot support the animal. Those are the obvious.

What I like to use is a 'tap' test. I lightly tap the shell... if it sounds solid and sharp... it is good... if it sounds hollow and dull... not good.

The best way to hear the difference is to try this with a tortoise that you know has a thin shell and one that you know has a good shell. Once you hear the difference there is no mistaking it.

Keep in mind that there are different levels of MBD.

You got it in that MBD is more serious than pyramiding. If caught early and the joints have not been effected... just add calcium and D3 in whatever form.

 

[Chewbecca]

Good. If he's not soft--that's good. And if he's active, maybe its just a fluke.

There's no hard and fast rules in the reptile world. Can you post some side pics? I don't think he has MBD--it was just a thought. But I use UVB on all my torts, so I recommend it to others.

Pictures of him from the side?
Is that what you are asking for?

I can do that, if so.

Also, I posted Pablo's pics in the..."all other photos" section.

 

[Meg90]

Yep, from the side, so you can see the contours of his shell

I'll get to the Pablo thread next. Thanks Lady!

 

[ElectricBlues]

My 4 yr old redfoot has similar raised ridges. Not sure what caused it either. We had a bad past summer and I was on honeymoon for the better parts, so she has not had much in the way of UV recently - maybe I should get a bulb to make up for it. Feeding her less often now, too, and will see how the new growth is. I've always been quite obsessive with keeping humidity up. Shell is hard and growth has been fast.

 

[Madkins007]

The thick ridges can be early pyramiding, but are more likely big growth rings.

Young torts don't need a lot of calories, but it does not take a lot of fruit to hit their daily dietary level since most 'grocery store' fruits are rather high in sugars and calories.

A lot of experienced Red-foot keepers, breeders, and authors are finding really good results cutting back on the fruits to once a week or so, and including less 'sweet' fruits like squash, bell pepper, and so on. (Remember- for the most part, a veggie with seeds is a fruit.)

Many are also cutting back on the meat proteins, to once a month or so. (Oh, and their published photos look just fine.)

UVB is a huge debate as you have seen. I would suggest that the evidence in its favor is strong enough to outweigh the fact that they do OK without it. Certainly we do not want to overdo it, and we need to follow the maker's guidelines for distance and replacement, but I think it is a helpful element overall.

 

[ElectricBlues]

Good info. Thanks! I will keep the fruit thing in mind and see about some UV. Hopefully the upcoming summer will be a good one, I feel like she has been indoors too long.