Hibernating

[THBfriend]

Some folks used to think this, but it has since been disproved...European tortoises that have never been hibernated still reproduce enthusiastically. Nor does not hibernating them have any affect on their immune systems.

Disproved in a scientific way or just by the experiences of some people?

No reason to think that, either. My first Hermann's, who'd been my grandfather's pet for over 30 years, upon his passing became my pet for another 19 years, and was at least 10 years old when he found her, and possibly as old as mid-20s, so, upon her passing was at least 60 and possibly as old as 75...a ripe old age.

That's impressive. Maybe that tortoise will live to be 100 years. Maybe it would live to be 150 if it had hibernated regularly. The longevity of tortoises makes this kind of hard to study and verify.

Hibernation is absolutely optional.

Maybe if you live in a climate with warm winters (Texas?). If you live in a temperate climate with freezing winters and keep your Hermann's tortoises outdoors (as you should), then hibernation is pretty much a necessity. You could of course move the tortoises indoors for the winter, but not everybody wants to and has enough room for that.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-38255.html

Please understand that when you toss the word brumation or hibernation out in to this Forum (as well as many other places )...you will GENERALLY get a vast array of comments, opinions and a bunch of other stuff....so, you will really need to determine where you stand on the entire subject, then and only then, will you decide what you will or will not support as part of a life cycle....

Thanks a lot, that was an interesting read.
I was surprised by the amount of anti-hibernation comments in this topic, so I felt I had to chime in.
By the way, here is a pretty interesting article about hibernation by the manager of a research and conservation center in Bulgaria.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi THBFriend: The members of this Forum all have varied opinions on keeping tortoises. We are all allowed to express those opinions, and as long as we keep it civil and not argumentative or rude, every opinion is allowed to be posted. I deleted what I thought was a rude comment from this thread. What you have to keep in mind is that YOU are allowed to express your opinion, but you don't necessarily have to try to change other members' way of thinking on the subject. You don't have to argue about it. Sort of like "this is how I feel, and what my experience has taught me, and I accept that you don't agree with me."

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Some folks used to think this, but it has since been disproved...European tortoises that have never been hibernated still reproduce enthusiastically. Nor does not hibernating them have any affect on their immune systems.

Disproved in a scientific way or just by the experiences of some people?

Scientifically AND tortoise keeper's experiences

No reason to think that, either. My first Hermann's, who'd been my grandfather's pet for over 30 years, upon his passing became my pet for another 19 years, and was at least 10 years old when he found her, and possibly as old as mid-20s, so, upon her passing was at least 60 and possibly as old as 75...a ripe old age.

That's impressive. Maybe that tortoise will live to be 100 years. Maybe it would live to be 150 if it had hibernated regularly. The longevity of tortoises makes this kind of hard to study and verify.

Those are exceptional ages for Hermann's torts...there have been exceptional folks who've lived over 120 years, but danged few...one passed recently at 122, I recall.

How many 100+ year-aged folks have you, yourself, met?

Hibernation is absolutely optional.

Maybe if you live in a climate with warm winters (Texas?). If you live in a temperate climate with freezing winters and keep your Hermann's tortoises outdoors (as you should), then hibernation is pretty much a necessity. You could of course move the tortoises indoors for the winter, but not everybody wants to and has enough room for that.

We bring our tortoises in during the cold months (around here, typically mid-to-late October through mid-to-late April), but catch sunny days, now again, during this period, so they can get some sun even then. And there are reptile lights available to give them needed UV.

The rest of the year, mine have an outside enclosure where they get natural sunlight, fresh air, weeds, leaves, cactus, a weekly feeding of tortoise kibble, and lots of attention.

Did pretty much the same when I lived in Toronto, Ontario (a bit north of Texas).

 

[ascott]

By the way, here is a pretty interesting article about hibernation by the manager of a research and conservation center in Bulga.

Thank you.

 

[tglazie]

I'm always amazed how controversial hibernation/brumation (winter torpor?) is on this forum. When I was growing up, every care guide worth it's salt argued that hibernation was absolutely essential, that not giving hibernating/brumating species a chance at it resulted in kidney and liver problems as well as infertility. Now that I'm older, I've gotta say, I don't know what to think. Perhaps the authors of these care guides of the eighties and nineties were arguing a case of artificial causality (i.e. the thing causing their pet tortoise's liver problems was in fact not hibernation, but, more likely, some deficiency in diet or water availability), because in nature, hibernation/brumation is one of those things that is completely dependent upon environmental conditions, and those are always in flux.

Hermanns torts evolved to live in vast Mediterranean oak forests, most of which have been cleared by human activity. Despite this significant modification of the environment over the past three thousand years, Hermanns torts, though under serious pressure from overcollecting and habitat destruction, are still surviving in areas where they are left largely undisturbed, even if these areas do not resemble the forests of yesteryear. Also, these torts survive, with human help, in a wide variety of climates in the US. Some of you keep them successfully in New England, others in Florida. Everything I know about these torts suggests adaptability, so it wouldn't surprise me if hibernation/brumation was an optional survival strategy.

That being said, I choose to hibernate/brumate my torts, not because I feel that it is necessarily necessary for their health, but because I hate keeping tortoises indoors during the winter for a prolonged period of time. Though I have a half acre of land for my beasties, my small, two bedroom house is not exactly conducive to keeping all nine of my marginated and hermanns tortoises, as well as my oldest lone pet Turkish graeca Graeculus. Outdoors, each tortoise has a run that measures ten by twenty feet, twenty by twenty in the case of my females. Indoors, during inclement weather, I hold each of them in a two by five tortoise table, all of which I've set up in the garage, end to end, so that the entire habitat sits atop a ten by ten foot space. Despite the soil substrate and three hides per enclosure, my torts pace like crazy. They don't like it inside, and I can hardly blame them. Compared to their spacious outdoor digs, these indoor enclosures must seem like a boxy prison. Luckily, they don't have to spend more than three weeks per year in these enclosures, given that I don't move them indoors with any permanence until mid November (it stays rather warm in San Antonio until this time, eventually dropping into the fifties at night). During that two week period, I don't feed them, keep incandescent lights on them to match the daylight hours outdoors, and I soak them every day. I usually have them all in hibernation by early December so long as there are no health troubles. I wake them in late January/early February, at which time things really start warming up in San Antonio again. For about a week into mid February, I have to bring the tortoises indoors at night, sometimes all day if the month is particularly rainy and cool. Usually by late February/early March, the torts can remain outside full time. This is convenient for me, and I've been doing it for years now.

T.G.

 

[THBfriend]

Excellent post, tglazie.
I've also learned that hibernation ("winter topor" - I like that) was absolutely necessary. Now I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe Terry is true and it isn't.
But that doesn't change the fact that it's natural and more convenient in certain ways. As you and I said, not everybody has enough space for an adequate indoor enclosure during winter, especially if you have many tortoises. The additional expenses for equipment, electricity and food should also be considered (those reptile UV lights consume more power than a good fridge - if you need a fridge at all, our adult tortoise hibernate in the garden). For hatchlings and very young tortoises, add to that the potentially overly fast growth and increased risk of mortality.