Hi there! I’m new here, I just got my baby eastern Hermann tortoise 4 days ago, the staff told me he is probably a couple months old. I used just cypress mulch as a bedding, lettuce mixed with calcium for food. I didn’t know they could only stay out of the cage for 15 min tops, so for the past 3 days I’ve been doing a warm bath for him before eating(but outside the cage). So today I tried to bath him for 5 min with lukewarm water and put the food dish there in the cage, but he only ate less than yesterday and when I’m not looking at him he sniff and took bites of cypress mulch, is this okay? Or should I bath him more so he eats lettuce instead of the bedding? Also where should I get the wild flowers for him? Like dandelion flowers… I live in oakville, Canada.
Hermann Tortoise
- Thread starter Chipchip
- Start date
Alex and the Redfoot
Well-Known Member
Hello!
Only lettuce is not the right diet for the tortoise, so you are right to seek for dandelions. Some organic shops may have dandelion greens and flowers.
Eating substrate is often related with the wrong lights in the enclosure. Could you provide some details, what do you have there? Some overview photos would help, of course.
Meanwhile, take some time to read this post on basics of care: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/info-for-new-people-please-read-this-first.202363/
and the care sheet for temperate species at the bottom of that post. You can find correct equipment and environment breakdown there, as well as diet and supplements advice. You will probably have many questions after that, don't hesitate to ask them.
Only lettuce is not the right diet for the tortoise, so you are right to seek for dandelions. Some organic shops may have dandelion greens and flowers.
Eating substrate is often related with the wrong lights in the enclosure. Could you provide some details, what do you have there? Some overview photos would help, of course.
Meanwhile, take some time to read this post on basics of care: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/info-for-new-people-please-read-this-first.202363/
and the care sheet for temperate species at the bottom of that post. You can find correct equipment and environment breakdown there, as well as diet and supplements advice. You will probably have many questions after that, don't hesitate to ask them.
I don't know who told you that they can only be out of the enclosure for 15 minutes, but that is silly. You don't want them getting cold outside the cage for even one minute, and they should never be loose on the floor, so I don't understand where this time frame comes from.
Soak your tortoise in a tall sided opaque tub inside the enclosure where it is warm and bright. Evaporative cooling will quickly make the water too cold if you just set it on a counter in your house. Don't let the water get cold during the soak. Add more warm water, swap from one tub to a new warm one every few minutes, or put the soak tub somewhere warm to do the soaks. Many ways to do it.
It sounds like you got him at a pet store, so read the link from Alex to make sure you have the correct lighting, temperatures, and enclosure. Most pet stores sell you all the wrong stuff, and some of it can be dangerous. We will help you succeed.
Thank you so much for replying, I have been so confused what he can eat and what he cannot, pet store says 1 inch bedding at most is fine, also nibbling on the bedding is normal too, I change the bath water twice, I think I shd get a new container for him to bath, I also am not sure if he can eat parsley, but I have been feeding him lettuce and calcium dust mixed in it. Also I don’t know where Alex’s link is.. would u my pasting it here for me? Thank you so much🥺I don't know who told you that they can only be out of the enclosure for 15 minutes, but that is silly. You don't want them getting cold outside the cage for even one minute, and they should never be loose on the floor, so I don't understand where this time frame comes from.
Soak your tortoise in a tall sided opaque tub inside the enclosure where it is warm and bright. Evaporative cooling will quickly make the water too cold if you just set it on a counter in your house. Don't let the water get cold during the soak. Add more warm water, swap from one tub to a new warm one every few minutes, or put the soak tub somewhere warm to do the soaks. Many ways to do it.
It sounds like you got him at a pet store, so read the link from Alex to make sure you have the correct lighting, temperatures, and enclosure. Most pet stores sell you all the wrong stuff, and some of it can be dangerous. We will help you succeed.
This is the link to the guide for new tortoise owners:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/info-for-new-people-please-read-this-first.202363/
Please if it’s not too much of a trouble, please tell me from the beginning on how to properly take care of a baby Hermann tortoise… I have heard so much wrong information and I already don’t know what to do…I don't know who told you that they can only be out of the enclosure for 15 minutes, but that is silly. You don't want them getting cold outside the cage for even one minute, and they should never be loose on the floor, so I don't understand where this time frame comes from.
Soak your tortoise in a tall sided opaque tub inside the enclosure where it is warm and bright. Evaporative cooling will quickly make the water too cold if you just set it on a counter in your house. Don't let the water get cold during the soak. Add more warm water, swap from one tub to a new warm one every few minutes, or put the soak tub somewhere warm to do the soaks. Many ways to do it.
It sounds like you got him at a pet store, so read the link from Alex to make sure you have the correct lighting, temperatures, and enclosure. Most pet stores sell you all the wrong stuff, and some of it can be dangerous. We will help you succeed.
Its no trouble at all. I've written these care sheets just for that purpose. Start here and look for the heating/lighting breakdown and the temperate species care sheet near the bottom. All of this info is what you need to know:
Info For New People. Please Read This First.
Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...
tortoiseforum.org
Alex and the Redfoot
Well-Known Member
I've taken a look at the pictures, you sent (https://postimg.cc/gallery/5CdcDrZ - that's the link for other members).
1. Tom already mentioned, that lightning and heating need to be adjusted. You need flood lamp for basking area, not intense spot. UVB lamp is not effective at distance of 14" through the metallic mesh (and there are reports of eye damage with this lamp type, so we don't recommend to use them). We can help you with correct replacements (there is a lot of confusion on this topic, so please check with us before you buy).
2. Thermometer probe is placed too high to get informative readings. To get a picture of ambient temperature you need to place it lower, at tortoise shell level, near the hide. To measure basking spot temperature - put the probe on substrate, under the basking lamp for an hour or so (to let it warm).
3. Try to cover terrarium mesh top with something like aluminium foil leaving no space around lamp fixture or with a large storage box (so the lamps would be under it). This will help to keep temperature and humidity under control.
4. He needs more shady hiding places to feel safe. Usually you can use potted plants, corkwood or something like that, but terrarium is very small to fit all in.
5. Look for an option to provide him larger enclosure: portable greenhouse top, large storage box (like christmas tree boxes). 2x3 ft is the minimum for a hatchling (for an adult aim for 4x8ft).
Please, don't be scared off, ask questions and we'll try to help.
1. Tom already mentioned, that lightning and heating need to be adjusted. You need flood lamp for basking area, not intense spot. UVB lamp is not effective at distance of 14" through the metallic mesh (and there are reports of eye damage with this lamp type, so we don't recommend to use them). We can help you with correct replacements (there is a lot of confusion on this topic, so please check with us before you buy).
2. Thermometer probe is placed too high to get informative readings. To get a picture of ambient temperature you need to place it lower, at tortoise shell level, near the hide. To measure basking spot temperature - put the probe on substrate, under the basking lamp for an hour or so (to let it warm).
3. Try to cover terrarium mesh top with something like aluminium foil leaving no space around lamp fixture or with a large storage box (so the lamps would be under it). This will help to keep temperature and humidity under control.
4. He needs more shady hiding places to feel safe. Usually you can use potted plants, corkwood or something like that, but terrarium is very small to fit all in.
5. Look for an option to provide him larger enclosure: portable greenhouse top, large storage box (like christmas tree boxes). 2x3 ft is the minimum for a hatchling (for an adult aim for 4x8ft).
Please, don't be scared off, ask questions and we'll try to help.
ah okay, so what I need to do is get fake plants for now... he buries himself under bedding, if I can confirm with you guys that he can breathe well under? there's one time he hid under bedding for 5 hours under basking light and I got so worried so I moved him.
and may I ask, which kind of lamp will you recommend? which brand? the distance between the top of the bedding and the bottom of the light is 10.5-11 inch. the pet store are all using the same kind of light when I was buying him, and the staff said he is healthy so far... but if you guys think I shd replace them, pls pls pls let me know since Tom has written before that the pet store may give out misinformation and later blame on owners when something happened to the pet.
I have adjusted the probe to the correct level, and the tempt is 87.1 F, the temp don't really change through out the day, I check every 30 min.
I will buy aluminum foil to cover the mesh tmr if thats necessary...does this make the tempt hotter or keep it stable, I don't want him to feel too hot and burn...
Pet store told me he might be a couple of months old, I have looked at the shell development and he might be a yearling, so does that mean the encloser should be 2x3ft?
1 last question: is he okay to eat parsley? I have heard tortoises get kidney problem easier if they eat them...but I'm not sure which kind and what age people were talking about.
sorry this is a very long message, I am trying to get everything right one by one...
-Marsha
Raquel1978
New Member
Hi ‘I’m definitely not a expert but I have a baby Hermanns also .The burying is totally normal sometimes we have no clue where our little one is until she pops her head out in the morning.
The care sheets you have been linked will definitely help you out with anything your unsure of also their is a section on tortoise food and diet that is very helpful in terms of what your little one can eat.
I know lettuce has no nutritional value so it’s pretty pointless feeding them it they need a varied diet .
I’ve started growing things like watercress which is pretty quick and easy to grow as she seems to like it dandelions radicchio and spring greens are also a favourite .
The care sheets you have been linked will definitely help you out with anything your unsure of also their is a section on tortoise food and diet that is very helpful in terms of what your little one can eat.
I know lettuce has no nutritional value so it’s pretty pointless feeding them it they need a varied diet .
I’ve started growing things like watercress which is pretty quick and easy to grow as she seems to like it dandelions radicchio and spring greens are also a favourite .
Alex and the Redfoot
Well-Known Member
1. They won't suffocate when burrowed don't worry.
2. 81F under the basking lamp - is too low. It should be closer to 100F. One of the reasons for reduced appetite are low temperatures and that may explain why he stays burrowed under the lamp.
3. When covering the enclosure top, you prevent hot and humid air from escaping due to "chimney effect". Humidity of 70-80% is required to prevent forming of a bumpy shell (pyramiding). Temperatures in the enclosure should be closer to 75F in the cold area and up to 100F under the basking lamp. With a 50W lamp I don't think there is a risk of overheating. But since you have a spot bulb (not flood) there can be a hot spot just under it and a risk of shell dessication/burn (even without foil).
4. At 11 inches 5.0 UVB lamp can have some effect. However, mesh filters out up to 30% of UVB radiation. Another unknown in the equation is the fixture dome - it can make UV output 7-8 times more intensive (if it's brushed aluminium inside, white paint coating doesn't have such effect). Recommended lamps here are T5HO lamps (long straight flourescent tubes), you need shortest length/wattage. ZooMed and Arcadia make good quality products. You will need 10.0 or Desert 12% lamp, on 3-4 hours a day. ZooMed Terrarium Hood comes with 5.0 lamp - it can be used if you hang it under the mesh.
5. For the basking area you need incandescent flood lamp. It's hard to find regular bulbs in hardware stores or on Amazon now, but there are suitable in pet stores, like Arcadia Solar Basking Floodlight.
6. On enclosure size: if you can go with the largest size possible (like 3x6 or 4x8). It doesn't have to be a super-fancy vivarium. There are cheap and fine working options like portable greenhouses, large tote boxes, cement mixing tubes, customized IKEA bookcases and so on. You can use different shapes and designs to fit your space (L-shaped, double-deckers and so). I would decide on this first - it defines what lights, heating and so you will need.
7. Parsely can be fed in small amounts, more like spice than main dish. You can check https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/ for plant safety information.
Don't worry that you have a long list of questions. Getting onboard with tortoise care isn't an easy task, but when all is settled down things go smooth. Take a small bite of information from the mentioned care sheets every day, ask for explanations or advice and you'll be fine. At the beginning don't look at the other sources of information to avoid confusion.
2. 81F under the basking lamp - is too low. It should be closer to 100F. One of the reasons for reduced appetite are low temperatures and that may explain why he stays burrowed under the lamp.
3. When covering the enclosure top, you prevent hot and humid air from escaping due to "chimney effect". Humidity of 70-80% is required to prevent forming of a bumpy shell (pyramiding). Temperatures in the enclosure should be closer to 75F in the cold area and up to 100F under the basking lamp. With a 50W lamp I don't think there is a risk of overheating. But since you have a spot bulb (not flood) there can be a hot spot just under it and a risk of shell dessication/burn (even without foil).
4. At 11 inches 5.0 UVB lamp can have some effect. However, mesh filters out up to 30% of UVB radiation. Another unknown in the equation is the fixture dome - it can make UV output 7-8 times more intensive (if it's brushed aluminium inside, white paint coating doesn't have such effect). Recommended lamps here are T5HO lamps (long straight flourescent tubes), you need shortest length/wattage. ZooMed and Arcadia make good quality products. You will need 10.0 or Desert 12% lamp, on 3-4 hours a day. ZooMed Terrarium Hood comes with 5.0 lamp - it can be used if you hang it under the mesh.
5. For the basking area you need incandescent flood lamp. It's hard to find regular bulbs in hardware stores or on Amazon now, but there are suitable in pet stores, like Arcadia Solar Basking Floodlight.
6. On enclosure size: if you can go with the largest size possible (like 3x6 or 4x8). It doesn't have to be a super-fancy vivarium. There are cheap and fine working options like portable greenhouses, large tote boxes, cement mixing tubes, customized IKEA bookcases and so on. You can use different shapes and designs to fit your space (L-shaped, double-deckers and so). I would decide on this first - it defines what lights, heating and so you will need.
7. Parsely can be fed in small amounts, more like spice than main dish. You can check https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/plant-database/ for plant safety information.
Don't worry that you have a long list of questions. Getting onboard with tortoise care isn't an easy task, but when all is settled down things go smooth. Take a small bite of information from the mentioned care sheets every day, ask for explanations or advice and you'll be fine. At the beginning don't look at the other sources of information to avoid confusion.
Hi! these are so helpful! thank you!
1.so i wont have to worry when he burrows under
2. I bought a higher watt(60w flukers basking bulb incandescent reptile lighting) before asking you guys questions and it came today, the tempt is 92.3F, but I have just found the 2 T5HO, which one shd I choose? and for Arcadia basking floodlight which is 75 watt, can I screw the flood light bulb into the dome? will it be less effective? but idk how to hang the light in this terrarium cause the opening in this one is from the top.
3. if I am to change the terrarium like a tote box or ikea bookcase how do I install the lights?
4. do u think I should change the hideout to a bigger one, cause chipchip doesn't use it and when he does he scratches so does it mean its too small for him?
5. What is the best way to wake him up in the morning without scaring him?
6. the dome is probably brushed aluminum on the inside.
7. I spray water daily 2-3 times into the enclosure to keep the moisture going and avoid environment being to dry for chipchip.
I'm actually confused on how to put the light in if I change the enclosed to a storage box
I got some photos, please check
!
Album — Postimages
-marsha
Alex and the Redfoot
Well-Known Member
1. Thumbs up
2. Fluker's bulb seems fine to me. You might need to mount it lower to get desired temperature (95-100F). The T5HO lamps you've found are not exactly right ones: Dragon 15% has too much UVB and Forest 6% has too little. However, this can be corrected by mounting height. Even couple of inches makes a big difference. This is an example listing for the lamp we need (UVB percent and length/wattage): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B084ZMW697/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
3. With a bookcase you will need a greenhouse top to retain humidity and can hang UVB and basking bulb fixtures from there. Or you can use a lamp stand. With a tote box you can go the same way (greenhouse top) or cut the holes in the box lid. It's better to see the exact options and decide on them (no worries, we've got you covered )
4. If he fits in the hide the size is probably fine. He might be trying to dig a burrow to cool down/heat up or to get more moist environment.
5. You don't need to wake him up, he should get up by himself for a morning basking.
6. It's not white coated, so probably UV levels from a compact bulb might be too harsh. It's okay to use it with a basking bulb (however wide domes are preferred). I would not risk using it with a compact UV bulb (I haven't seen UV measurements, so it's just an opinion).
7. Spraying substrate doesn't work really well. It's better to pour some water in the corners. This will make lower layers of substrate damp and upper - dry and will have prolonged effect.
2. Fluker's bulb seems fine to me. You might need to mount it lower to get desired temperature (95-100F). The T5HO lamps you've found are not exactly right ones: Dragon 15% has too much UVB and Forest 6% has too little. However, this can be corrected by mounting height. Even couple of inches makes a big difference. This is an example listing for the lamp we need (UVB percent and length/wattage): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B084ZMW697/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
3. With a bookcase you will need a greenhouse top to retain humidity and can hang UVB and basking bulb fixtures from there. Or you can use a lamp stand. With a tote box you can go the same way (greenhouse top) or cut the holes in the box lid. It's better to see the exact options and decide on them (no worries, we've got you covered
)4. If he fits in the hide the size is probably fine. He might be trying to dig a burrow to cool down/heat up or to get more moist environment.
5. You don't need to wake him up, he should get up by himself for a morning basking.
6. It's not white coated, so probably UV levels from a compact bulb might be too harsh. It's okay to use it with a basking bulb (however wide domes are preferred). I would not risk using it with a compact UV bulb (I haven't seen UV measurements, so it's just an opinion).
7. Spraying substrate doesn't work really well. It's better to pour some water in the corners. This will make lower layers of substrate damp and upper - dry and will have prolonged effect.
Hi there! so if i decided the ikea bookcase as his new encloser,1. Thumbs up
2. Fluker's bulb seems fine to me. You might need to mount it lower to get desired temperature (95-100F). The T5HO lamps you've found are not exactly right ones: Dragon 15% has too much UVB and Forest 6% has too little. However, this can be corrected by mounting height. Even couple of inches makes a big difference. This is an example listing for the lamp we need (UVB percent and length/wattage): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B084ZMW697/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20
3. With a bookcase you will need a greenhouse top to retain humidity and can hang UVB and basking bulb fixtures from there. Or you can use a lamp stand. With a tote box you can go the same way (greenhouse top) or cut the holes in the box lid. It's better to see the exact options and decide on them (no worries, we've got you covered
4. If he fits in the hide the size is probably fine. He might be trying to dig a burrow to cool down/heat up or to get more moist environment.
5. You don't need to wake him up, he should get up by himself for a morning basking.
6. It's not white coated, so probably UV levels from a compact bulb might be too harsh. It's okay to use it with a basking bulb (however wide domes are preferred). I would not risk using it with a compact UV bulb (I haven't seen UV measurements, so it's just an opinion).
7. Spraying substrate doesn't work really well. It's better to pour some water in the corners. This will make lower layers of substrate damp and upper - dry and will have prolonged effect.
1.does color matter? choices are black, brown and white, (to my knowledge, black traps heat easier so it will burn chipchip easier right...?)
2.which kind of greenhouse top will you suggest or does chicken wire works too?
3. I have checked the uv light u sent me, turns out they have that in petsmart too! because I dont have the cover for that tube, so I'll have to buy a set and hang it into the chicken wire myself right?
4. I also checked the review of the basking floodlamp from petsmart, how much watt do u recommend? also the reviews said mostly they burn out within a day to a week...?
5. also what would be a great tool to measure the UV level?
I've got some photos again
Album — Postimages
marsha
Hi1 I'm so glad you have a baby hermann as well! but mine doesn't pop his head out, he just keep sleeping, I have tried that once turning on light at 6:50am and I woke up at 12:30pm and he still remains the same positions, did I do something wrong?
-marsha
Alex and the Redfoot
Well-Known Member
1. Just in case, your tortoise doesn't care about the color And there is no significant difference in thermal absorbtion. Here is one example of a bookcase enclosure: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/ikea-bookshelf-enclosure.9740/
And that's another overview of cost-effective spacy enclosures: https://www.reddit.com/r/tortoise/s/aiiqbjIEkN (it's on Reddit yet, but is prepared by a well-known forum member - TechnoCheese)
2. No, chicken wire won't work - we need full cover, not mesh. Like this: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/shelterlogic-grow-it-small-greenhouse-3-x-8-x-3-ft or this https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...house-with-2-side-doors-green-4-x-2-ft-hb-890. There are plenty of them on Amazon as well (look for pop-up greenhouses, grow tents, greenhouse top and so on). You can put it on top of the bookcase, on the floor so the table will be inside or just use it itself as an enclosure depending on model.
3. When you buy Arcadia proT5 Kit it has a fixture and a lamp, ZooMed has "hood" fixtures (they are more difficult to hang). Also compatible fixtures for T5 HO lamps can be found in hardware stores for cheap, but one needs some knowledge to choose the right one. Don't get ShadeDweller lamp - they are dim and designed for other tortoise species.
4. Wattage of 75W is usually enough. It depends on dome type and mounting height and can be adjusted. Without thermometer or temperature gun you won't know for sure. 100W with dimmer switch can work too. Good quality lamps (like Arcadia) don't burn out within a week, it could be transportation issues (this lamp can't be shaked or dropped much or tungsten spiral gets damaged).
5. For measuring UV level only Solarmeter 6.5 works reliably. It's expensive but worth it in the long-term (e.g. you won't need to change UV lamp after 6 months and can keep it for years because UV output is high enough). There are one-time UV measurement cards - they are cheap and inaccurate, but may work once when doing initial setup.
And there is no significant difference in thermal absorbtion. Here is one example of a bookcase enclosure: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/ikea-bookshelf-enclosure.9740/And that's another overview of cost-effective spacy enclosures: https://www.reddit.com/r/tortoise/s/aiiqbjIEkN (it's on Reddit yet, but is prepared by a well-known forum member - TechnoCheese)
2. No, chicken wire won't work - we need full cover, not mesh. Like this: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/shelterlogic-grow-it-small-greenhouse-3-x-8-x-3-ft or this https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...house-with-2-side-doors-green-4-x-2-ft-hb-890. There are plenty of them on Amazon as well (look for pop-up greenhouses, grow tents, greenhouse top and so on). You can put it on top of the bookcase, on the floor so the table will be inside or just use it itself as an enclosure depending on model.
3. When you buy Arcadia proT5 Kit it has a fixture and a lamp, ZooMed has "hood" fixtures (they are more difficult to hang). Also compatible fixtures for T5 HO lamps can be found in hardware stores for cheap, but one needs some knowledge to choose the right one. Don't get ShadeDweller lamp - they are dim and designed for other tortoise species.
4. Wattage of 75W is usually enough. It depends on dome type and mounting height and can be adjusted. Without thermometer or temperature gun you won't know for sure. 100W with dimmer switch can work too. Good quality lamps (like Arcadia) don't burn out within a week, it could be transportation issues (this lamp can't be shaked or dropped much or tungsten spiral gets damaged).
5. For measuring UV level only Solarmeter 6.5 works reliably. It's expensive but worth it in the long-term (e.g. you won't need to change UV lamp after 6 months and can keep it for years because UV output is high enough). There are one-time UV measurement cards - they are cheap and inaccurate, but may work once when doing initial setup.
Alex and the Redfoot
Well-Known Member
There are few reasons for him to stay buried:
1. He is a hatchling, they need to hide and avoid open spaces in the wild otherwise they get eaten. You need to give him more shady areas. Put a real boston fern on top of his hide, for example. If going with plastic plants - make sure he can't reach and eat the leaves.
2. Temperatures and humidity are wrong and he tries to keep himself comfortable. What is the temperature in his hide or near that point? And what is the humidity now (he needs closer to 80%)?
3. UV light is too harsh. Try turning it off completely for 3-5 days (this won't hurt him).
4. Start his day with a warm soak (lukewarm water) for 15-30 minutes. Water should be warm all the time. As Tom suggested you can keep him in a soaking bowl in the enclosure, just not under the direct light. Or you can move him between two bowls, changing water when it gets too cold
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