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- Jul 25, 2012
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- 77
Tom, you say the tortoises are selected from several different clutches. Is it possible that 5 are from a very healthy sulcata, 5 from a mediocre sulcata and 4 are from a weak sulcata?
mercurysmom said:Tom, you say the tortoises are selected from several different clutches. Is it possible that 5 are from a very healthy sulcata, 5 from a mediocre sulcata and 4 are from a weak sulcata?
ALDABRAMAN said:This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.
bigbeaks said:Tom, I was wondering what symptoms did the ones that died and the ones that aren't thriving had / have?
ALDABRAMAN said:This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.
Tom said:Hmmm...
The breeder suggested this as a possibility too. But my babies are all on city water. I drink it too and so do my babies that are in the same divided enclosure as these babies.
Tom said:mercurysmom said:Tom, you say the tortoises are selected from several different clutches. Is it possible that 5 are from a very healthy sulcata, 5 from a mediocre sulcata and 4 are from a weak sulcata?
Yes. This is physically possible. To my knowledge all of the adults are equally well cared for and all healthy. The breeder is very knowledgeable, experienced and competent. I have seen pics of the adults and their enclosures and everything looks great. I have also talked at length with him about the care of his adults. Everything about his care of his adults sounds ideal.
He and I differ in our experiences and opinions of how to start hatchlings, but most people agree on how to care for adults.
ALDABRAMAN said:This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.
Hmmm...
The breeder suggested this as a possibility too. But my babies are all on city water. I drink it too and so do my babies that are in the same divided enclosure as these babies.
bigbeaks said:Tom, I was wondering what symptoms did the ones that died and the ones that aren't thriving had / have?
Little or no growth, general lethargy, lack of appetite or motivation to go over to one of the feeding stations and eat.
ALDABRAMAN said:This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.
Hmmm...
The breeder suggested this as a possibility too. But my babies are all on city water. I drink it too and so do my babies that are in the same divided enclosure as these babies.
bfmorris said:Tom said:Hmmm...
The breeder suggested this as a possibility too. But my babies are all on city water. I drink it too and so do my babies that are in the same divided enclosure as these babies.
All tortoises, ALL tortoises I own, are given RO water, fwiw. Hard water can play hob on hatchlings in my experience.
Btw, I don't incubate w/ vermiculite. I use dry perlite.
bigbeaks said:Did they get soft at all or just die?
ALDABRAMAN said:This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.
Baoh said:Since this effectively is implicitly calling Brad into some degree of whatever this is, I should mention I bought twenty babies from Brad. One came with a little hiccup (congenital ocular issue), but was born with it and it was simply overlooked (and Brad graciously took care of the situation). The rest, simply put, have been doing all of fantastic. No deaths. No stunting.
I resold them piecemeal after months went by and I have kept in loose contact with most of the new owners. No deaths. No stunting. I retained some as holdbacks for my own purposes, which is why I bought the original group of twenty, up until relatively recently. Since I was able to acquire one of Brad's awesome and beastly adult females, I was able to let even those holdbacks go. Among the holdbacks, the scls ranged from just over 3.5" (with the highest dome of any in the group) to a bit over 4.5" (the longest and was very masculine in head and overall structure). Individual differences, of course, but no deaths and no stunting. All fed readily. Some (many) ate more than my Aldabra (and "she" eats a lot) at much smaller comparative body masses. If there was a problem, it was not showing up at my place, so I believe the animals I received were in excellent internal condition. They only crapped out crap. No perlite. No vermiculite. No sand. No gold. No razor blades. I am very pleased with my transactions with Brad and more than satisfied with the animals he has sent me on multiple occasions now.
I have no problem with the higher ambient humidity methods and often allow a very humid ambient area to exist in some of my enclosures for smaller animals. This area is no larger than a quarter of any of my enclosures by happenstance. However, rather than shoot for air saturation in most of my enclosures, my overall tendency is to provide a substrate with a thick and moist subterranean layer beneath a thin to moderately thick and totally dry surface layer. I occasionally wet down the surface layer (once a week to once every two weeks; it dries within a day or two). When outside, I let them dig beneath tussocks and plant root balls, just like I have observed hatchling and small juvenile tortoises engaging in the practice of in several parts of the world in nature. Different strokes for different folks.
Baoh said:ALDABRAMAN said:This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.
That happened recently to a significant breeder in FL, too. I feel quite bad for him. Pseudomonas, I believe, in his case.
There is a ton of of inductive drive in this thread surrounding a true sample size of two (necropsied) animals (making broader conclusions based on a small number is considered scientifically irresponsible) and associated & assumed root causes for observations surrounding those two and others, but I do appreciate all of the details shared as they are believed to be.
Tom said:Baoh said:Since this effectively is implicitly calling Brad into some degree of whatever this is, I should mention I bought twenty babies from Brad. One came with a little hiccup (congenital ocular issue), but was born with it and it was simply overlooked (and Brad graciously took care of the situation). The rest, simply put, have been doing all of fantastic. No deaths. No stunting.
I resold them piecemeal after months went by and I have kept in loose contact with most of the new owners. No deaths. No stunting. I retained some as holdbacks for my own purposes, which is why I bought the original group of twenty, up until relatively recently. Since I was able to acquire one of Brad's awesome and beastly adult females, I was able to let even those holdbacks go. Among the holdbacks, the scls ranged from just over 3.5" (with the highest dome of any in the group) to a bit over 4.5" (the longest and was very masculine in head and overall structure). Individual differences, of course, but no deaths and no stunting. All fed readily. Some (many) ate more than my Aldabra (and "she" eats a lot) at much smaller comparative body masses. If there was a problem, it was not showing up at my place, so I believe the animals I received were in excellent internal condition. They only crapped out crap. No perlite. No vermiculite. No sand. No gold. No razor blades. I am very pleased with my transactions with Brad and more than satisfied with the animals he has sent me on multiple occasions now.
I have no problem with the higher ambient humidity methods and often allow a very humid ambient area to exist in some of my enclosures for smaller animals. This area is no larger than a quarter of any of my enclosures by happenstance. However, rather than shoot for air saturation in most of my enclosures, my overall tendency is to provide a substrate with a thick and moist subterranean layer beneath a thin to moderately thick and totally dry surface layer. I occasionally wet down the surface layer (once a week to once every two weeks; it dries within a day or two). When outside, I let them dig beneath tussocks and plant root balls, just like I have observed hatchling and small juvenile tortoises engaging in the practice of in several parts of the world in nature. Different strokes for different folks.
Again your tone and choice of words is insulting. Your sarcasm and snotty tone helps no one.
Its wonderful that your purchases from Brad all did well. Mine and Dean's did not. Your cleverly hidden stand against my way of keeping them does not explain why the same ratio of mine and Deans both failed despite vastly different methods of keeping. All 20 of ours only crapped crap, coincidentally too. No razor blades, sand or incubation medium here either, but thanks anyway for the implications...
I too let mine dig into tussocks and root balls when outside, what does this have to do with anything?
If my method of keeping them were somehow faulty, as you so subtly wish to imply, why do 100% of all the tortoises that I hatch and raise with these methods thrive? THIS is why I am so glad that I did the control group, just on the other side of a divider in the same enclosure.
The ivories are irrelevant to this discussion. I have chosen not to speak publicly about what Fife did. If you wish to know, ask him. Privately.
DesertGrandma said:Opinions please...
The baby leopard I had that died pooped out quite a bit of some whitish stuff on the first day or two after I got her. Reading on the forum that "urates" are normal I didn't worry about it. She was about two months of age. She wouldn't eat and didn't poop for the entire time I had her. I took her to the vet and had her euthanized apprx. 6-8 weeks later because she was beyond saving. She was soaked every day, kept in a warm, humid environment and offered a variety of healthy foods. Now, since then I have had several leopard babies, given them all the same care and they are all thriving. None have every pooped out "urates."
Do you see this as possible vermiculite problem?
I have to admit that being new I wouldn't have known the difference between "urates" and vermiculite in the poop.
Tom said:Baoh said:Since this effectively is implicitly calling Brad into some degree of whatever this is, I should mention I bought twenty babies from Brad. One came with a little hiccup (congenital ocular issue), but was born with it and it was simply overlooked (and Brad graciously took care of the situation). The rest, simply put, have been doing all of fantastic. No deaths. No stunting.
I resold them piecemeal after months went by and I have kept in loose contact with most of the new owners. No deaths. No stunting. I retained some as holdbacks for my own purposes, which is why I bought the original group of twenty, up until relatively recently. Since I was able to acquire one of Brad's awesome and beastly adult females, I was able to let even those holdbacks go. Among the holdbacks, the scls ranged from just over 3.5" (with the highest dome of any in the group) to a bit over 4.5" (the longest and was very masculine in head and overall structure). Individual differences, of course, but no deaths and no stunting. All fed readily. Some (many) ate more than my Aldabra (and "she" eats a lot) at much smaller comparative body masses. If there was a problem, it was not showing up at my place, so I believe the animals I received were in excellent internal condition. They only crapped out crap. No perlite. No vermiculite. No sand. No gold. No razor blades. I am very pleased with my transactions with Brad and more than satisfied with the animals he has sent me on multiple occasions now.
I have no problem with the higher ambient humidity methods and often allow a very humid ambient area to exist in some of my enclosures for smaller animals. This area is no larger than a quarter of any of my enclosures by happenstance. However, rather than shoot for air saturation in most of my enclosures, my overall tendency is to provide a substrate with a thick and moist subterranean layer beneath a thin to moderately thick and totally dry surface layer. I occasionally wet down the surface layer (once a week to once every two weeks; it dries within a day or two). When outside, I let them dig beneath tussocks and plant root balls, just like I have observed hatchling and small juvenile tortoises engaging in the practice of in several parts of the world in nature. Different strokes for different folks.
Again your tone and choice of words is insulting. Your sarcasm and snotty tone helps no one.
Its wonderful that your purchases from Brad all did well. Mine and Dean's did not. Your cleverly hidden stand against my way of keeping them does not explain why the same ratio of mine and Deans both failed despite vastly different methods of keeping. All 20 of ours only crapped crap, coincidentally too. No razor blades, sand or incubation medium here either, but thanks anyway for the implications...
I too let mine dig into tussocks and root balls when outside, what does this have to do with anything?
If my method of keeping them were somehow faulty, as you so subtly wish to imply, why do 100% of all the tortoises that I hatch and raise with these methods thrive? THIS is why I am so glad that I did the control group, just on the other side of a divider in the same enclosure.
The ivories are irrelevant to this discussion. I have chosen not to speak publicly about what Fife did. If you wish to know, ask him. Privately.
ALDABRAMAN said:Baoh said:ALDABRAMAN said:This thread is fantastic. Tom you are wonderful. I would like to share a recent lengthy conversation i had with a well known respected tortoise breeder here in Florida. Several years back he lost most of his hatchlings, various species including sulcatas. Many developed close to full term and died right before hatching out. Making a very in depth conversation short, his water source being used for his incubation process was straight from the well, untreated other than by a softener. After many test it was concluded that all the deaths were directly due to a type of bacteria that is very common in our water down here in Florida. The hatchlings that did hatch out were very "puffy" and never had a chance.
That happened recently to a significant breeder in FL, too. I feel quite bad for him. Pseudomonas, I believe, in his case.
There is a ton of of inductive drive in this thread surrounding a true sample size of two (necropsied) animals (making broader conclusions based on a small number is considered scientifically irresponsible) and associated & assumed root causes for observations surrounding those two and others, but I do appreciate all of the details shared as they are believed to be.
I think we are probably referring to the same person, same exact issue!
DesertGrandma said:Opinions please...
The baby leopard I had that died pooped out quite a bit of some whitish stuff on the first day or two after I got her. Reading on the forum that "urates" are normal I didn't worry about it. She was about two months of age. She wouldn't eat and didn't poop for the entire time I had her. I took her to the vet and had her euthanized apprx. 6-8 weeks later because she was beyond saving. She was soaked every day, kept in a warm, humid environment and offered a variety of healthy foods. Now, since then I have had several leopard babies, given them all the same care and they are all thriving. None have every pooped out "urates."
Do you see this as possible vermiculite problem?
I have to admit that being new I wouldn't have known the difference between "urates" and vermiculite in the poop.