Growth and shell hardening?

[Livingstone]

Livingstone is almost 10 months old. He is 4" SCL. I was checking him over and noticed If I press gentley, that the bridge area in front of his hinde legs is still a lil soft and so is the plastron area.

He is growing well, very nice smooth round carapace. Eats daily, spring mix, and mazuri. Calcium with d3 is sprinkled on the mazuri daily, also gets a multi-vitamin, bi-daily, to even out anything lacking from the diet.

Also gets a warm bath every day for 10-15 minutes.

His humidity is 70% daily, and his basking spot is 104 via a zoomed MVB. he has a CHE at night that keeps his burrow at 74.

I dont think Im doing anything wrong. Please chime in.

 

[Tom]

That's an awful lot of supplementation. You may be over-doing it. That may or may not be related to your problem. 4" is also pretty big for 10 months, but not totally unheard of. I've got a two year old that is just a little over that. I tend to grow mine slow, however.

The big question is, does he ever get outside for sun and exercise? I think its good for all torts, but necessary for sullies. What part of the world do you live in? Its my opinion that all the fancy, expensive lighting systems don't do much other than brighten the enclosure. Others disagree, but I've had to rehab many species of reptiles that were suffering from MBD while under these lights. Mostly beardies, iggies, sullies and leopard torts. These four species, in my experience, require direct sunlight to remain healthy and not get MBD. Just 20 minutes a couple of times a week seems to be enough, but more is better. In my opinion no amount of supplementation or electric lighting is a substitute for sunshine.

I'd like to see more variety in your diet too. How about some grass, dandelions, cactus pads, hibiscus, clover, rose petals, weeds or other leafy greens from the grocery store? Also, Mazuri already has vitamin D3 in it. I don't think you ought to add more.

Your temps seem good. I don't think soaking every day is necessary, but I don't think its harmful either. How about some pics of Livingstone and his enclosure? Maybe we'll pick up something we're not getting from your text.

 

[Livingstone]

I agree about the d3 in the mazuri and in the calcium, I am going to get him a cuttle bone so he can regulate his own intake.

On the diet subject, he gets opuntia fruit as well, and when the weather is good again, he will get dandelion and clover.

Yah I need to get the cable that connects the PC to the camera, then I will post pics.

I would think if this was MBD he would have pyramiding or other growth defects.

Thanks.

 

[Tom]

I agree about the d3 in the mazuri and in the calcium, I am going to get him a cuttle bone so he can regulate his own intake.

On the diet subject, he gets opuntia fruit as well, and when the weather is good again, he will get dandelion and clover.

Yah I need to get the cable that connects the PC to the camera, then I will post pics.

I would think if this was MBD he would have pyramiding or other growth defects.

Thanks.

First, make sure your clover isn't Oxalis. I made this mistake. You can look it up in the weed identification part of the food and diet section here on the forum.

Second, as EJ so eloquently pointed out, MBD and pyramiding are two, unrelated, different maladies. You can have one without the other or you can get both in the same tort. My torts have zero MBD. They have been out in the sun almost daily since I got them as hatchlings with a good,varied diet, lots of exercise and appropriate supplementation. Yet they are mildly pyramided, because I raised them in bone dry conditions, with no humidity. I didn't know any better back then. ( Well, nobody did ).

Soft shell is a symptom of MBD. Not enough calcium is getting to the bone. This can be caused by a lack of calcium, an improper balance of calcium to phosphorus, lack of D3 and or extremely rapid growth to name just a few possibilities.

You probably have one or a combination of some of these in a mild way. There is debate about whether artificial dietary D3 does any good what so ever. I remember a study done years ago on green iguanas that showed injected D3 in large amounts, but not toxic levels, did nothing to help with calcium metabolism. They also had a group of them in the same study 6" under a bank of flourescent UV lights and it produced no trace of D3 when they drew and tested blood. They had a third group exposed to daily sunlight and given zero supplementation. This group had healthy calcium and D3 levels every time they tested. There was also a fourth control group that got no sun, artificial UV or supplementation. The forth group tested just like the first two. This study was over ten years ago and I, unfortunately, have no way to find it again.

Bottom line on your guy is, you need sunshine, if at all possible, and or more artificial UV if its too cold where you live. I don't think artificial lights do much, but its better than nothing and it won't hurt. More variety in the diet will help too. If you think his condition is pretty bad get him to a good reptile vet and see if the vet recommends calcium injections or drops.

In any case, I've never seen a soft shell on a tort that gets regular sun, even when the diet, supplementation and husbandry is all off.

 

[Livingstone]

Thank you, I really appreciate the response. Im going to try the cuttle bone and see what happens.

The sun issue and going outside will happen more, but its winter here and there's a foot and a half of snow.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Make sure you pick up the camera cord when you are out buying the cuttlebone.

We want photos so we can all admire Livingstone--great name, especially for an African spurred tortoise! If you ever get another you'll have to name it Stanley.