Fridge? Really?

[MeRalf]

Hey there again!
I just had my first topic ("sick or trying to hibernate") and I understood that my little russian will do everything to hibernate, (I tried talking to him but he wouldn't listen ) and this is the first year I have him.
Week ago I put him in a wooden box in a dark place where the temprature is 55F. It IS probably too warm, but I think I have 2 choices (or not???)
1. Let him sleep in this 55F place for one or two more weeks (he is sleeping there for one week) and then slowly waking him up

2. Put him in a fridge and let him hibernate for (how long time?????) ? Which scares me because I have never ever done that before.

What would you suggest?
It would be nice if you read my previous topic to understaind the situation and why I don't feel very safe hibernating him.

Thank you very much,
You all are awesome!

 

[JoesMum]

There are two ways to go with this

1. Hibernate him (you need to achieve a steady temperature of 41F/5C) ... if this is a first hibernation, 8 weeks is probably about right... then you warm him up and do number 2 below.

2. Wake him up. This means a tortoise table and heat lamps - background temp of 82F/28C by day and a spot lamp giving additional heat to around 95F/35C.

Anything in between will cause harm

I hope I've got my temperature conversions right, we operate in celcius this side of 'the pond'!

 

[MeRalf]

There are two ways to go with this

1. Hibernate him (you need to achieve a steady temperature of 41F/5C) ... if this is a first hibernation, 8 weeks is probably about right... then you warm him up and do number 2 below.

2. Wake him up. This means a tortoise table and heat lamps - background temp of 82F/28C by day and a spot lamp giving additional heat to around 95F/35C.

Anything in between will cause harm

I hope I've got my temperature conversions right, we operate in celcius this side of 'the pond'!

We also use celsius

So probably I should put him in the fridge...Does he need some kind of a transitional phase between the fridge and the place where he sleeps now? (can tortoise handle such a direct changes of temps fom 12C to 4-5 C?)
And when I'll take him out, I probably should do the same actions backwards - from fridge to the kitchen closet (where he is sleeping right now) and than in the room temps, and than, finally, in his enclosure?
Thanx so much for helping!!!

 

[JoesMum]

Think about it. Outside in normal life, it drops from 12 to 4C in a few hours! He'll be fine.

Before hibernating, are you sure he's eaten nothing for the last couple of weeks and has he been bathed regularly so he isn't dehydrated?

 

[Tom]

You need a dedicated fridge too, not your regular food one. GB recommended 38-39 if I remember correctly, but I know people who have done it much warmer than that with no issues. The main thing is to keep it consistently cold for the duration, but not TOO cold.

 

[JeffG]

Refridgerators are air tight. Have you planned out how to get him fresh air?

 

[ascott]

You will absolutely have to assure that the fridge is opened every single day more than a few times (no light in the fridge)...you will also have to make sure to check the temps in the fridge and assure they don't mess up and drop cold....IMHO

I have 4 CDTS and they brumate, I have them in their own sleeping boxes insulated and then placed in a dark closet in a garage conversion room that has all heat cut off to it and the closet remains at around 50 degrees...you just do not want your temps rise and stay at anything over 55 degrees....48-50 is a good number....now, others will want to drop them to 40-41 and in my opinion that is too close to freezing and leaves no wiggle room in the event of a malfunction somewhere....

Brumation in captivity HAS TO be constantly monitored...constant for temps, tortoise hydration as well as clear breathing throughout the brumation....IMHO that is....

Others will also have some additional opinions....good luck and happy sleeping to your torts...

 

[Tom]

All you need is a tiny tube of some sort breaking the seal. I've used ball point pen tube with the ball point pen stuff removed. They are using so little oxygen that I really don't think this is an issue.

 

[dmmj]

Keep it out of any vegetable crisper (no joke) they dehydrate stuff which is deadly to a tortoise.

 

[MeRalf]

You will absolutely have to assure that the fridge is opened every single day more than a few times (no light in the fridge)...you will also have to make sure to check the temps in the fridge and assure they don't mess up and drop cold....IMHO

I have 4 CDTS and they brumate, I have them in their own sleeping boxes insulated and then placed in a dark closet in a garage conversion room that has all heat cut off to it and the closet remains at around 50 degrees...you just do not want your temps rise and stay at anything over 55 degrees....48-50 is a good number....now, others will want to drop them to 40-41 and in my opinion that is too close to freezing and leaves no wiggle room in the event of a malfunction somewhere....

Brumation in captivity HAS TO be constantly monitored...constant for temps, tortoise hydration as well as clear breathing throughout the brumation....IMHO that is....

Others will also have some additional opinions....good luck and happy sleeping to your torts...

Thank You very much everyone,
And sorry for such questions, I really didn't plan to brumate him this year, he surprised me,he was even running away from heat in his enclosure...
I think that I won't put him in the fridge than. Too many dangers, if I cannot put him in the vegitable section than I don't have any other place, buying a new fridge is just too expensive and I have no idea how to make sure if he will have enough fresh air (if I'll open the fridge and let it stay opened for a while, the temps will go higher immediatly).
He hasn't eaten since the beginning of October, I soaked him every day, but he begun to look very dry,I soaked him also right before I let gim go to sleep, but I'm not sure if he drank anything,he just tried to climb out of the water. Now he sleeps in the kitchen chamber for more than one week, it's still around 15 C (59F). I really don't know what to do. Should I let him sleep there for one more week or should I immediatly take him out and try to make him feel like it's summer? (with a risk that he still won't eat and will feel a need to sleep?) I am so worried, I am thinking about it all the time!

 

[GBtortoises]

Your tortoise will not "do everything to try to hibernate" if it is kept at normal activity temperatures, light duration and intensity. The only way that it will brumate (hibernate) under indoor, artificial conditions is if those conditions are not at normal activity levels such as temperatures too cold or daylight not long enough or intense enough. A majority of the situations of a tortoise being mistaken for trying to hibernate indoors is because their light source is not intense enough and their day hours are not long enough. Many people also mistake the natural actions of a Russian tortoise burying itself as an attempt to brumate when in fact under normal acitivity levels this is not true. The tortoise is doing what Russian tortoises will usually do naturally-burrow. Unfortunately, Russian tortoises have become the recent pet shop staple yet are one of the most mid understood tortoises in captivity in terms of activity periods. People want tortoises that they can see being active daily when in fact Russian tortoises have evolved to be less active than other species because of their environment. In the wild Russian tortoises are active anywhere for 3-5 months out the year. The rest of the time they spend underground or under other protection waiting out harsh weather conditions. They spend most of their live brumating or aestivating. Not exactly the ideal pet in captivity. Many people mis-interpret this lack of activity as a problem with their tortoise, or their tortoise trying to brumate. Both of which are usually not the case at all.

Keeping your tortoise at 55f for a period of more than a couple of weeks is not a good idea. At that temperature it is far too warm for the tortoise's body to go into brumation. With out being fed your tortoise will be using up valuable fat reserve that it requires if it brumated. By feeding your tortoise at this temperature it will consuming food but not being able to efficiently process that food at such low temperatures. This can lead to food fermenting and rotting in it's gut.

Russian tortoises need temperatures below 41f to truly brumate. Better yet is 38-39 or even 40f. It's best to start at 40f and slowly decrease until the tortoise becomes inactive but the bottom temperature under artificial conditions should be no lower than 35f. 38-40f is safer. Refrigerator brumation is possible. But it should be a dedicated refrigerator, not one in your kitchen. Everytime the door is opened the temperature and humidity level within can change rapidly. With a dedicated refrigerator you can control how often the door gets opened, controlling temperature and humdity. Brumating tortoises require far less oxygen than when active. There is no need for air holes or pumped in air in the refrigerator. This just makes it more difficult to keep temperatures and humdity stable within the refrigerator. By simply opening the door for a few seconds once or twice a week you exchange air. Also, tortoises brumating artificially should be visually checked on every few days initially until they settle in and stop moving. After that once every couple of weeks should be fine. If there is excessive movement then temperatures should be looked at and adjusted accordingly. If the tortoise continues to move alot after that or is awake it should definitely be removed from brumation and kept awake and active. Humidity can also be a factor. Many people keep tortoises very dry during brumation. Damp is not good for most species either, but too dry can lead to rapid body dehydration in captivity. A good range for most Testudo species in captivity appears to be 45-60% with around 50% being ideal. Having said that, for many years my Eastern Hermann's that brumate naturally outdoors have come out caked with mud or dripping with condensation. So we may even be keeping them too dry during brumation artificially in captivity. But that is difficult to determine by just my one scenario.

Equating Russian tortoise brumation needs and patterns with other species, especially western American species should not be done. They're are species from two different environments and climates. Even comparison with other more closely related Testudo species, some of which are found in environments almost as harsh, shouldn't be done. Environment, seasonal extremes and changes, brumation duration and more are quite different.

The bottom line is that If you "don't feel safe hibernating him", don't. If you are not confident about doing so and not willing to risk possible dangers then keep your tortoise awake and alert through the winter. If at some point in the future you feel that you want to brumate your tortoise you always can then.

 

[MeRalf]

Your tortoise will not "do everything to try to hibernate" if it is kept at normal activity temperatures, light duration and intensity. The only way that it will brumate (hibernate) under indoor, artificial conditions is if those conditions are not at normal activity levels such as temperatures too cold or daylight not long enough or intense enough. A majority of the situations of a tortoise being mistaken for trying to hibernate indoors is because their light source is not intense enough and their day hours are not long enough. Many people also mistake the natural actions of a Russian tortoise burying itself as an attempt to brumate when in fact under normal acitivity levels this is not true. The tortoise is doing what Russian tortoises will usually do naturally-burrow. Unfortunately, Russian tortoises have become the recent pet shop staple yet are one of the most mid understood tortoises in captivity in terms of activity periods. People want tortoises that they can see being active daily when in fact Russian tortoises have evolved to be less active than other species because of their environment. In the wild Russian tortoises are active anywhere for 3-5 months out the year. The rest of the time they spend underground or under other protection waiting out harsh weather conditions. They spend most of their live brumating or aestivating. Not exactly the ideal pet in captivity. Many people mis-interpret this lack of activity as a problem with their tortoise, or their tortoise trying to brumate. Both of which are usually not the case at all.

Keeping your tortoise at 55f for a period of more than a couple of weeks is not a good idea. At that temperature it is far too warm for the tortoise's body to go into brumation. With out being fed your tortoise will be using up valuable fat reserve that it requires if it brumated. By feeding your tortoise at this temperature it will consuming food but not being able to efficiently process that food at such low temperatures. This can lead to food fermenting and rotting in it's gut.

Russian tortoises need temperatures below 41f to truly brumate. Better yet is 38-39 or even 40f. It's best to start at 40f and slowly decrease until the tortoise becomes inactive but the bottom temperature under artificial conditions should be no lower than 35f. 38-40f is safer. Refrigerator brumation is possible. But it should be a dedicated refrigerator, not one in your kitchen. Everytime the door is opened the temperature and humidity level within can change rapidly. With a dedicated refrigerator you can control how often the door gets opened, controlling temperature and humdity. Brumating tortoises require far less oxygen than when active. There is no need for air holes or pumped in air in the refrigerator. This just makes it more difficult to keep temperatures and humdity stable within the refrigerator. By simply opening the door for a few seconds once or twice a week you exchange air. Also, tortoises brumating artificially should be visually checked on every few days initially until they settle in and stop moving. After that once every couple of weeks should be fine. If there is excessive movement then temperatures should be looked at and adjusted accordingly. If the tortoise continues to move alot after that or is awake it should definitely be removed from brumation and kept awake and active. Humidity can also be a factor. Many people keep tortoises very dry during brumation. Damp is not good for most species either, but too dry can lead to rapid body dehydration in captivity. A good range for most Testudo species in captivity appears to be 45-60% with around 50% being ideal. Having said that, for many years my Eastern Hermann's that brumate naturally outdoors have come out caked with mud or dripping with condensation. So we may even be keeping them too dry during brumation artificially in captivity. But that is difficult to determine by just my one scenario.

Equating Russian tortoise brumation needs and patterns with other species, especially western American species should not be done. They're are species from two different environments and climates. Even comparison with other more closely related Testudo species, some of which are found in environments almost as harsh, shouldn't be done. Environment, seasonal extremes and changes, brumation duration and more are quite different.

The bottom line is that If you "don't feel safe hibernating him", don't. If you are not confident about doing so and not willing to risk possible dangers then keep your tortoise awake and alert through the winter. If at some point in the future you feel that you want to brumate your tortoise you always can then.

Thank you so much, I really don't feel safe to do that, so I will just slowly wake him up by puting him in the room temp now and then in warm enclosure. I'm buying a new tort table this week, it will be bigger, covered, not standing on the ground and that all should keep it really warm, I have a ceramic heater and UVB, I'll buy a basking light also. Here's the link to the new tort table - http://www.interzoo.lv/index.php/re...mnovodnyh.html?SID=rilfdp193s6ugsa50be3ng7u32 (the text is in Russian, there are many size possibilities, i'll take 122x46x46 cm (48x18x18 inches) )

 

[GBtortoises]

The ceramic heater won't be necessary unless your the room that the enclosure is in drops below 55 degrees at night. During the daytime the basking light should be able to provide enough heat for normal activity. The temperature at the substrate, with the basking light no closer than 12" from the tortoise, (not the substrate) should be at least 95f for an adult Russian and 100-105, even 110 is better. This should also raise the ambient temperature of the general area around the basking light while the end with no basking light with naturally be cooler. You're looking for a range from end to the other of about 72-84 during the daytime with a 15-20 degree differential from day to night. Since you mention that you are purchasing a UVB light and a basking light. So I am assuming that the basking light will be a regular incandescent and the UVB will be provided by either a flourescent tube or multipurpose UVB/basking lamp. In order to produce better light intensity throughout the enclosure, which Russians need to be active moreso than other Testudo species, the tube style flourescent would be a better choice for a Russian. The multipurpose UVB's are great lamps, but do not provide enough light intensity throughout the enclosure. They are more focused on the basking area.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Keep it out of any vegetable crisper (no joke) they dehydrate stuff which is deadly to a tortoise.

I thought the whole point of the vegetable crisper was to prevent vegetables from dehydrating. More moisture makes for a crisper plant. This should make for a better, not worse part of a large fridge for brumation, no?

---

Hey there again!
I just had my first topic ("sick or trying to hibernate") and I understood that my little russian will do everything to hibernate, (I tried talking to him but he wouldn't listen ) and this is the first year I have him.
Week ago I put him in a wooden box in a dark place where the temprature is 55F. It IS probably too warm, but I think I have 2 choices (or not???)
1. Let him sleep in this 55F place for one or two more weeks (he is sleeping there for one week) and then slowly waking him up

2. Put him in a fridge and let him hibernate for (how long time?????) ? Which scares me because I have never ever done that before.

What would you suggest?
It would be nice if you read my previous topic to understaind the situation and why I don't feel very safe hibernating him.

Thank you very much,
You all are awesome!

Unless provided with large amounts of light, heat, and humidity during the winter months, Russian tortoises do seem to go into brumation mode. So, unless you have a setup to mimic summer conditions, I think you should allow your tortoise to brumate in a fridge. Otherwise, he will fast all winter long, which will result in excessive weight loss unless he is chilled to 40*F (the ideal temperature for a hibernaculum). Also, at temperatures that are too high for brumation, but too low for activity, your tortoise will be more vulnerable to infections because his immune system will be depressed. Either trick him into feeling like it's summer, or let him hibernate. But leaving him in a cool room won't work.