Fast Foreward Pyramid Conversation 2020 or 2030

[Kristina]

onarock, here is a pic of Greg's (Aldabraman's) enclosure.

 

[onarock]

That is cool!!

 

[Kristina]

I know. The first time I saw it, I almost died.

Then I learned that Greg has been doing this for 20 years - in the same town where my grandparents live, and also where I spent 2 weeks every spring all through school. When I realized what I had missed out on witnessing - I really did die, lol.

 

[onarock]

I heard that. I just found out that there was a couple from S.Africa that bred p.pardalis 5 min from my house that moved to the mainland some years ago.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Thank you, Our breeding program is on auto pilot, except the cold nights and collecting the eggs. Florida is very good for tortoises, at least aldabras.

 

[onarock]

what do you do on cold nights? And what is considered cold in Florida?

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

We never let the adults get below 55f. We heard them up in the houses and control the temperature with heat.

 

[moswen]

Are you talking about getting together with me and seeing who is right. LOL. My point flew right by you. I was not writing that letter as a hypothetical defending keeping torts dry. I wrote it as a hypothetical in regards to pushing/promoting a method of husbandry that does not mave much trial behind it and about zero scientific fact to back it. If you would have read my entire O.P. its pretty clear that I dont have a problem with keeping torts humid. You know what? I'm tired of explaining it. How about this. For those of you that are looking for an arguement about pyramid shells, and this Thread is not about that, by the way, but hey here goies. I recommend keeping your tortoises DRY, no water at all. I also recommend keeping your tortoise on rabbit pellets and feeding iceberg lettuce, wait iceberg has too much water content and water is not good for tortoises, feed them dry alfalfa. Thats my position, whats yours. Im ready

sarcasim is so unbecoming when you are trying to prove a "scientific" point. i don't see how it fits.

you seem to be looking to prove yourself right simply by trying to persuade everyone else to dis-regard a method of keeping tortoises that you do not believe in or use. in my opinion, that is an argument. by disagreeing with someone else you are, infact, promoting your way of keeping, instead of someone else's.

so.... someone has to be right... ? or is there another point that has flown right by me?

so, how much scientific evidence do you use in keeping your tort already? if your point of view is to try to dis-suade someone to keep an animal in a way that circumstantially proves that this method is correct, because it holds no "proven scientific evidence", then i would like to know your "scientific proof" that a tortoise with a pyramided shell is healthy, and has absolutely no need for improvement.

is the size of your enclosure "scientifically proven" to be the correct and absolutely best amout of space for the species and amount that you keep? is the food you feed, in the varied diet, in the amount, down to the milligram, "scientifically proven" to be the best possible food for them? how much scientific proof do you hold about exactly everyting that goes into your tortoise's body? is the amount of water you DO give your torts "scientifically proven" to be the correct amount of water? is the substrate you keep your tortoise on "scientifically proven" to be the best possible substrate? do you keep more than one tortoise together in one enclosure? is keeping more than one tortoise together in one enclosure "scientifically proven" to be the best possible thing for a tortoise?

and i honestly may be wrong here, i don't know for sure, i know there have been studies but i don't know if it's actually considered a "scientific fact" that mvbs are the best possible indoor lighting you can give your tortoise? is it a true scientific fact? i would assume that you should know. do you keep your indoor tortoises on an mvb bulb?

i'm just sayin, your heated "opinion" of trying to dis-prove one theory because there is no scientific evidence to prove that it is correct, is a completeouble-standard. so many things you do and so many ways you have adapted your own personal husbandry to suit your own personal needs are not scientifically proven either, so why are you having such a hard time with this one, and why are you trying so hard to tell everyone not to do it, because it has no scientific evidence to back it up? especially since there have been no ill effects so far, and it is only proving to increase the health of the tortoise, providing that you can do it correctly.

tortoise keeping as a whole, is a relitavely new concept. so i don't expect to hear that everything you do has 100% complete scientific evidence that what you're doing is correct.

have you seen this picture?

and do you believe that there is something unexplainably correct about the way this tortoise's shell has formed? this is a nice, healthy, perfectly formed, completely adequate tortoise? there is no need for improvement here?

if there could possibly be something wrong with this picture, and there could possibly be some room for improvement, what is so wrong with trying to find a new and better way? how many top-notch scientists are going to sit around discussing and theorizing every possible solution for a pyramided tortoise when there's a hole in our ozone layer?

if your way of keeping tortoises in every aspect is 100% cemented in scientific fact, then go ahead, promote it, and tell everyone you want that what they're doing should not be done because there is no scientific evidence to back it up.

if, however, you don't have 100% proof that every way you keep and feed your tortoise is 100% cemented in scientific fact, then you probably ought not throw the first stone... know what i mean?

 

[onarock]

moswen, I am not trying to disprove any theory and I quite clearly point that out. You have missed my entire point. You seem to think that I dont believe in the findings of humid and hydrated. Did you read my post #20 did you read post #1 and all inbetween? And to answer your question, No I have no scientific study or proof in any of my husbandry, wich is my point. I dont write care sheets or post on websites on any method of tortoise keeping. Although, I have been keeping tortoises for over 20 years and have produced hundreds of hatchlings I feel without long term or scientific study of such, that promoting in the way of caresheets or websites should be done with some caution.. Thats all I'm trying to say. And, you have missed my point completely. You posted pics of a section of pyramid shell, but can you say for certain what caused it? No! Nobody can. And yet you are completely convinnced that its because of hydration and humidity. I have not thrown the first stone. You, in a fit of rage, started a thread about people still raising pyramid torts and you asked the question of why? I posted some possible answers, never divulging my personal position and you took it as such. Firing off posts telling me that what I was promoting was wrong. What you never understood is, I never stated my position, only reasons why people might not heed the advice or take upon certain methods of husbandry that are not proven. My, The Devil I know, analogy. I dont know how to state it any more plainly. You, without any knowledge of what I do, have accused me of trying to bring down or shoot holes in certain methods of husbandry and that is CLEARLY not true. I do have some trials in the works with my upcoming batches of hatchlings. I also have some ideas about pyramiding, many of wich I have shared with some TFO members either in email, phone of pms but never on an open Thread. Some of wich I have shared have made it to Threads by some I have shared with, but they have never divulged that it was me. I wrote the sarcastic responce before because I think you, for lack of a better term, just dont get my point and are looking for an arguement or to impress people that you are 100% inline with their theorys. I dont know. I'm sure youll find someway to show that I advocate high heat, no humidity, and rabbit pellots along with no soaking ever, or spraying. Good Day

 

[moswen]

i didn't realize i was trying to argue with you to impress other people, thank you for enlightening me. please tell me, who am i here to impress, that i might draw their attention to this thread and they can see how fervently i believe in this coltish theory? i was actually of the mindset that i was trying to raise my tortoises in the best possible way that has thus far been discovered.

this is the debatable section, is it not? was this thread not intended as a debate? why are you so... for lack of a better word... irritated... with me for debating your point of view? and you do sound like your words are very heated, what with the fact that you keep telling me what i'm thinking and why i'm saying certain things and how i percieve you to keep your tortoises... so why do you keep telling me that i am angry? i just simply believe in a theory that has panned out succsessfully for over 10 years with no ill side effects, and it's panning out awesomely for my own tortoises, and i'm willing to defend what i believe in. i'm not going to mouse down and stop myself from stating my opinion just because you don't want to hear anyone else disagree with you. i don't think either of us should be upset, differences in opinion should be shared in order for us to gain new knowledge and grow. i'm just stating my diffence in opinion. my belief, that a tortoise with a smooth shell is much healthier than one who is pyramided, and i'm willing to defend that claim, because i believe in it. and i'm willing to defend that high humididty creates a smooth-shelled tortoise. and i'm willing to tell you that i don't believe your advocating that you should do NOTHING new with regards to tortoise husbandry until there has been scientific evidence to back it up, because really not everything you do CAN be backed with scientific evidence, because tortoise keeping is too new to have that large of a bank of scientific information for it.

now, you have said so many times that i have "missed your point entirely" but i still haven't seen you state your point. you just get mad and use sarcasm and claim to be tired of "stating your point"... but how can you be tired of stating your point when i haven't seen you do it yet? in your letter, you make it "your point" to blame high heat, soakings, and humidity for problems with tortoises in the future. then, down lower you say you believe in humidity. so is this your point? you believe in humididty? but you also believe that other people who advocate high humididty are borderline reckless because they've got no scientific proof to back it up? then when i reply about how humidity helps keep a tortoise's shell strong, the way nature intended it to be, and how your beilef that this humid theory should be disregarded because there is no scientific evidence to back it up doesn't make any sense, you still tell me i've missed your point. so, what is your point then? my letter, depicting the exact opposite of what your letter depicted, and blaming the completely opposite form of husbandry, is what's called a disagreement, which is what forms a debate. someone says something, gives information to back it up, and then someone else replys with a completely different stand point, and gives information to back that up. that's how it works... i'm saying this because (to me) it seems that you have a hard time understanding how a debate is supposed to work.

you say that no one can say for certain what causes a pyramided shell. how many pyramided shells have you seen that are a product of dry pellets and no access to water? and how many pyramided shells have you seen that are a product of moist substrate and daily soakings? i'm pretty sure that there are several smooth sulcata and leopard hatchlings, yearlings, and up, on this forum that every owner will say, "i kept his substrate moist, i gave him a humid hide, and i soaked him daily" (this information given along with the correct diet, enclosure, and bulbs, of corse). i of corse am no scientist, so i can't give you any scientific facts as to why this is. no one really knows WHY water and humidity help a tortoise grow a smooth shell, it is all still speculation, but i can tell you with some conviction that the circumstantial evidence points to the area where it IS a result of water. after all, before 10 years ago, how many people excersized their torts, fed them a low protein, all fiber diet, and kept them under the correct lighting or outside, and still produced pyramided tortoises? evidence points to these three things, PLUS water, which is the glue that holds the puzzle together, produces a smooth, healthy, and happy tort. maybe in the future we may find out exactly and scientifically why a tort's shell pyramids, and we may find a better way through scientific study and scientific evidence and scientific facts, but right now, my tort's are healthy, they enjoy their soaks, and their shells are smooth.

so, please enlighten me, what is your point? first you try to undermine a theory then you advocate it? i must confess i am a little confused, could you please help me out? i really must have missed your point entirely.

oh, and i never told you how you keep your tortoises. i asked you to provide scientific evidence that supports how you keep them, since you seem to be so strongly sided with seeing scientific evidence before you act on a new technique. i just would assume you would have had some since that's been your argument since the opening post.

 

[PeanutbuttER]

Here's what I think:

I think we feed hatchlings too much. I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I figure THAT'S why our sulcatas and leopards pyramid so easily.

But you can't just take one part out of the equation and say, "This is IT!" It takes all of them...exercise, heat, food, humidity. But in my opinion, less food.

That was very well-said. Thank you. It's a delight when I hear someone else say what I've been thinking lately.

 

[Tom]

I just found this thread and read the whole thing. I've been doing the reptile show thing for the last three days straight, so sorry for getting to the party so late.

Onarock, you are my friend and I get your point, but we have all been "flying by the seat of our pants" for the last 30 years or more with no scientific proof or evidence for how we do, or have done, things. At best we have gone by speculation based on average temps and humidity readings for huge ranges that encompass millions of microclimates within thousands of square miles. This info, however useful it is or isn't, really only applies to adults that hang out in the open. All of the tried and true (and failed) methods of the past were derived by the same process by which we have now derived methods that work. To spell it out very simply: Past methods = 100% failure. Current ("reckless") methods = 100% success. It saddens me that you think that I (we) are just making this stuff up haphazardly and going all nuts with our tortoises. You've talked to me on the phone many times. Do I really seem that stupid or irresponsible... potentially "reckless", as you put it? The leaders of the past have failed us miserably. It is time for youngin's like us to get up and take bold steps in the right direction. Because we don't have decades of success to back it up yet does not make it wrong or reckless. In fact we do have one decade of success to back this up. Richard Fife has ben using humidity to grow smooth healthy torts for at least 10 years. Not as "wet" as what I've been doing for the last three years, but certainly wetter than any of the old timers would ever advocate for "desert" species.

Pyramiding has been my passion and obsession for 20 years now. I hold two animal related degrees. I have taken numerous classes throughout high school and college on animal anatomy and physiology. I've been keeping reptiles since I was 7 years old in 1979. My wife holds a masters in Microbiology and was a vet tech for 13 years. I count many doctors, medical professionals and veterinarians among my close friends. I have read every veterinary reptile book I can find cover to cover several times. I have read every husbandry article and scientific study I can find. I have experimented with many factors over the years, as have many others, who have shared their findings with me. I reached this point very gradually and very carefully. I want to assure you that there is nothing "reckless" whatsoever about any of it, or any promotion of it. You ask any of the members here who have been to my place and seen my torts first hand whether or not they see anything but super healthy tortoises with these methods. My older torts are stunted and pyramided. All of the newer ones, that have been raised with these new techniques, show nothing but excellent health and smooth growth. I even have a juvenile that shows in her scutes forever the TRANSITION between the old and new methods. I once said in another thread that just because tortoises can SURVIVE less than optimal conditions, doesn't mean that we should intentionally INFLICT less than optimal conditions upon them. It is a medical fact that drinking more water than you "need" or being more hydrated than the minimum required is not harmful. In fact, if you ask any doctor, they will tell you that is is rather healthy for you. Vets will tell you the same thing regarding hydration and animals. What kind of long term damage are you expecting from proper hydration? I can tell YOU all about the long term damage from not enough hydration.

Funny thing is your letter is exactly the type that I would like to send to the "experts" whose advice I followed for the last three decades, with a few minor changes, of course. What has really become apparent lately is that those "experts" are only human and they only have the same powers of rationalization and deduction that I have. Some of them quite a lot less so...

Moswen, Post #30 above was very well written and you made some excellent points. I have to agree with you on all the way down the page.

 

[onarock]

i didn't realize i was trying to argue with you to impress other people, thank you for enlightening me. please tell me, who am i here to impress, that i might draw their attention to this thread and they can see how fervently i believe in this coltish theory? i was actually of the mindset that i was trying to raise my tortoises in the best possible way that has thus far been discovered.

Awesome!

this is the debatable section, is it not? was this thread not intended as a debate? why are you so... for lack of a better word... irritated... with me for debating your point of view? and you do sound like your words are very heated, what with the fact that you keep telling me what i'm thinking and why i'm saying certain things and how i percieve you to keep your tortoises... so why do you keep telling me that i am angry? i just simply believe in a theory that has panned out succsessfully for over 10 years with no ill side effects, and it's panning out awesomely for my own tortoises, and i'm willing to defend what i believe in. i'm not going to mouse down and stop myself from stating my opinion just because you don't want to hear anyone else disagree with you. i don't think either of us should be upset, differences in opinion should be shared in order for us to gain new knowledge and grow. i'm just stating my diffence in opinion. my belief, that a tortoise with a smooth shell is much healthier than one who is pyramided, and i'm willing to defend that claim, because i believe in it. and i'm willing to defend that high humididty creates a smooth-shelled tortoise. and i'm willing to tell you that i don't believe your advocating that you should do NOTHING new with regards to tortoise husbandry until there has been scientific evidence to back it up, because really not everything you do CAN be backed with scientific evidence, because tortoise keeping is too new to have that large of a bank of scientific information for it.

Your right this is the debatable section. Your debating pyramid shell theory, thats not what this is about. This is about the promotion of theory without caution. If I had a theory about pyramid shells and advocated, what I think is a pretty radical way of keeping tortoises, I would do so with caution, thats my point. Now, if you want to debate weather new or unproven ideas should or should not be promoted either in caresheets or on websites or books without CAUTION this Thread is for that. I'm not advocating ignoring new techniques or theorys, I'm just saying that they should be advocated with caution. Like I stated before. I have seen people slammed on TFO to the point where they are Heading For The Hills for their TFO lives for using less caution. But, when it comes to certain methods of husbandry and the desire to produce smooth shelled tortoises some seem to throw caution to the wind and its perfectly acceptable. You brought up why people are doing things to produce pyramid shells in this time of "new" knowledge. I answered your question hypothetically, never divulging my position. I was simply trying to give an answer to your question, not advocating any method of husbandry. Now, I have you telling me what I'm advocating is wrong when I have advocated nothing, but caution.

now, you have said so many times that i have "missed your point entirely" but i still haven't seen you state your point. you just get mad and use sarcasm and claim to be tired of "stating your point"... but how can you be tired of stating your point when i haven't seen you do it yet? in your letter, you make it "your point" to blame high heat, soakings, and humidity for problems with tortoises in the future. then, down lower you say you believe in humidity. so is this your point? you believe in humididty? but you also believe that other people who advocate high humididty are borderline reckless because they've got no scientific proof to back it up? then when i reply about how humidity helps keep a tortoise's shell strong, the way nature intended it to be, and how your beilef that this humid theory should be disregarded because there is no scientific evidence to back it up doesn't make any sense, you still tell me i've missed your point. so, what is your point then? my letter, depicting the exact opposite of what your letter depicted, and blaming the completely opposite form of husbandry, is what's called a disagreement, which is what forms a debate. someone says something, gives information to back it up, and then someone else replys with a completely different stand point, and gives information to back that up. that's how it works... i'm saying this because (to me) it seems that you have a hard time understanding how a debate is supposed to work.

I have an idea on how debates are supposed to work. I just think I'm debating apples and your debating oranges. My point in the letter was to provide a hypothetical to the future as to what could come about when we promote unproven theory. Thats it. Like I stated before, I have been keeping tortoises for over 20 years. I've worked for breeders in the industry and publishers in the industry. 20+ years ago I got my first tortoise and kept it dry. Now I can tell you exactly who and when I learned that technique from. I hold no ill will towards these individuals because it was the best advice of its time. Now, I have a couple of tortoises that have pyramid shells. They are both alive and kickin and producing. 20 years is not along time in regards to a tortoises lifespan, but I can report no issues thus far with either of them. Call it luck! I'm serious, because of the lack of info on tortoises natural life, I think that we rally can call it luck. Taking that into consideration there may be those who like me, have been doing this for some time and understand that although what they are doing may not be proven to be the best, they are unwilling to gamble again. The Devil I Know.

I want you to please read all my posts in regards to pyramid tortoises and tell me where I, 1. state my theory on pyramiding and 2. where it is that I advocate to disregard the humid, hydrated theory. I can save you some time on both. 1. I have never and 2. I dont.

you say that no one can say for certain what causes a pyramided shell. how many pyramided shells have you seen that are a product of dry pellets and no access to water? and how many pyramided shells have you seen that are a product of moist substrate and daily soakings? i'm pretty sure that there are several smooth sulcata and leopard hatchlings, yearlings, and up, on this forum that every owner will say, "i kept his substrate moist, i gave him a humid hide, and i soaked him daily" (this information given along with the correct diet, enclosure, and bulbs, of corse). i of corse am no scientist, so i can't give you any scientific facts as to why this is. no one really knows WHY water and humidity help a tortoise grow a smooth shell, it is all still speculation, but i can tell you with some conviction that the circumstantial evidence points to the area where it IS a result of water. after all, before 10 years ago, how many people excersized their torts, fed them a low protein, all fiber diet, and kept them under the correct lighting or outside, and still produced pyramided tortoises? evidence points to these three things, PLUS water, which is the glue that holds the puzzle together, produces a smooth, healthy, and happy tort. maybe in the future we may find out exactly and scientifically why a tort's shell pyramids, and we may find a better way through scientific study and scientific evidence and scientific facts, but right now, my tort's are healthy, they enjoy their soaks, and their shells are smooth.

Here we go again. I not underming anyones theory. Only stating that we should proceed with caution when advocating and promoting unproven theory. I am looking out for the Newbie. Those who dont have the experience to 1. spot trouble in its infancy and 2. dont know what to change even if they could. Those of us that have been doing this 10+ years can. Advocating or promoting unproven theory that can easily be interprated by a Newbie as fact is not responsable in my book. I feel theorys in their infancy should either only be shared amongst experienced keepers or come with a disclaimer.

I recently shared a technique on star tortoise egg incubation with a fellow TFO member. A method that is not that old. A method practiced by a couple prolific star tortoise breeders to reduce split or extra scuted animals ( a problem more prevalent in star tortoises in my opinion). I would never give that info to the first time egg incubator or put it on an open forum. I would not want the responability that goes along with it. And, to do so, without further testing this method or scientific backing would to me be reckless.

so, please enlighten me, what is your point? first you try to undermine a theory then you advocate it? i must confess i am a little confused, could you please help me out? i really must have missed your point entirely.

I never intentionally or unintentionally undermined any theory and I think my posts proove that, in that I state my intentions clearly. Yes you did miss my point entirely, but thats ok. Hopefully after reading this you will understand.

oh, and i never told you how you keep your tortoises. i asked you to provide scientific evidence that supports how you keep them, since you seem to be so strongly sided with seeing scientific evidence before you act on a new technique. i just would assume you would have had some since that's been your argument since the opening post.

Wrong. I am strongly sided against the Open, As a matter of fact, promotion of new techniques without scientific backing. It has been my position since the opening post. My positon is promoting, advocating new or unproven theory without caution or disclaimer.

 

[John]

boy its gettin hot in here now!

 

[onarock]

Tom, I never satated that all this new info was made up haphazrdly. I have talked to you on the phone and I do consider you a friend. I also feel that your theory along with the Fifes is still speculation and without science it allways will be. Sorry, that is just fact. Its why its called science. Past methods dont = 100% failure and new methods dont = to 100% success. Your kind of overstating. No Tom, I dont think your stupid. As your friend, a bit irresponsable? maybe? Not that I think what your doing is malicious, I have told you on the phone and in emails my opinion on what your doing. I think Ive been supportive. Your right, the leaders in the past to some extent have failed us and I think it is time for us youngins to step to the forefront, but in a responsable manner. We should not be applying our theorys of husbandry with their methods of reckelessness or "flying by the seat of our pants" as they did. We need to be better in everyway. I have shared with you some of my experience in husbandry and what I think may or may not be the cause of pyramid shells. I have shared husbandry technique and tips with you that I have not shared with anyone else. Mainly because I feel you have the experience to decipher what I have told you for yourself and that any complications due to the application of such tips or techniques could easily be rectified by you. This is not true for the Newbie. I think you also missed my point. Im not debating heat and hydration I'm promoting responsability. You yourself stated that you would like to send a letter like that to someone but you would change a few words. I think I know what those words are. My point is, I would hate for someone to send you one of those letters 20 years from now. And, without scientific study or at least long term trial that letter is a real possablity. We do need to move foreward, we do need to apply new tchniques I just think that putting these new methods and techniques out for all to see should be done in a responsable manner.

 

[dmmj]

I have excused myself for the most part from this, having said my piece earlier, but I am curious what would you consider a scientific study? how long term of a study are we talking about?

 

[moswen]

so then, ona you believe that a decade's worth of nothing but good results in humidity with tortoises does not give enough sufficient information to share a good husbandry technique with the general public? are you saying that you believe that the "newbie's" tortoise deserves to grow up in a way that you know is wrong, PYRAMIDED, because they don't have sufficient knowledge in how to keep a tortoise, and see a change (for the worse) for their tortoise, should such a case occur? which hasn't yet? when do you think it will be time? in 20 more years? then in 20 years you can say "oops, sorry newbies of 20 years ago. i knew the way that you were keeping them was wrong, but i didn't want to impart to you the way that is considered "right" today because that information wasn't scientifically proven, just like the information that i gave you wasn't scientifically proven." what kind of sense does that even make? in 20 more years a newbie to the tortoise world will still be a newbie, how then would you proceed in teaching a newbie a technique that, in your opinion, requires 20+ years of experience with tortoises? i disagree with you again. i think that every tortoise deserves to be raised correctly, with the best knowledge available, in order to prevent such a horrible and uncorrectable shell problem that IS bad for your tortoise. i think that you are still basically saying that high humidity will cause problems in the future, so you think you shouldn't teach anyone about it. basically you would prefer to hide the information and keep it only for some elite tortoise owner club that you personally find acceptable, knowledgeable, and experienced enough to share the sacred information with, and allow some new tortoise owner to keep their tortoise in a way that has been proven to be incorrect husbandry, just because this new information isn't scientifically proven.

i still stand beside the fact that a pyramided tortoise is a horrible thing to do to him/her, and the idea that a better husbandry technique should not be persued without scientific fact is still a double standard. have you ever given advice to anyone who you have sold a tort to? do you just say "here's the tort, don't call me again." ? surely you have given someone information somewhere along the road. would this information, if you have given any, include a basic tortoise keeping concept that may allow pyramiding to occur? pyramiding is a horrible, uncorrectable, unnatural thing, and i'm not putting words in your mouth or saying what you think, but i'm sure you can't say that pyramiding is not wrong. if you are knowingly giving wrong information to a new tortoise owner just because a new theory or technique (that has worked for 10 years, which is 10 years longer than the old technique that you may or may not be instructing a new tortoise owner to use) doesn't have scientific backing, you're double standarding yourself again, because raising them to be pyramided does not have a scientific background of "correct! this is the best and only way to raise a tortoise!" keeping with what you know just because you know the NEGATIVE side effects that will occur doesn't make it right. that's like a woman who gets beat but she stays with the man because at least she knows what to expect, even if she knows it's wrong.

if you have ever advocated a theory that promotes the fact that pyramidiing, or the husbandry that leads to pyramiding, is okay, then you have not been responsible, according to your own statement. i personally can't believe that you've never shared information on how to keep a tortoise with a newbie before, and if you have, i'm assuming that since you're so against telling them about humididty, then you probably told them about how to keep a tortoise so that it will pyramid. which, as we all know, is wrong, and has no scientific backing to be correct.

i think that anyone who can sell a tortoise that is pyramided, call it beautiful, and praise his husbandry techniques, should not be keeping or selling tortoises. if you're keeping and/or selling tortoises and they are still pyramiding today, i think you're wrong. (not you specifically ona, just "you" as a general statement.) this is a horrbile way to keep animals, in a condition that you cannot fix, and in a way that creates problems and weakens their ONLY line of defense that nature has given them. what a horrible way to live. i think if you're keeping tortoises humid-ly, and selling them with smooth shells, then you should advise everyone that you meet or sell tortoises to to do the same thing. if you can tell them how to keep it humid, then you can tell them how to keep the temperatures up and how to look for shell rot and uri's. every person on the planet deserves how to properly care for an animal in their care, regardless of how "unscientific" the evidence is. in fact, every aspect of tortoise keeping is pretty much "unscientific." if you give them any information at all, you might as well give them the right information. just because one way is NOT scientific, doesn't prove that your way IS.

almost nothing is known about hatchlings and yearlings in the wild, which can only mean that almost no scientific evidence can be proven on how to keep them. have you ever sold, and given information on how to keep, a hatcling? if you've ever said anything to someone who has bought one of your hatchlings besides "almost nothing is known about hatchlings. they spend almost all of their time in hiding" then you're still double standard-ing yourself. not sharing information about how to keep an animal in the best possible way is an irresponsible thing to do.

that makes me think of back in the cave man days when flint was used for a knife. just because we didn't know how to work metal that makes a better blade doesn't mean that the information of flint-knapping should not have been used, just because there was a better way out there, we just didn't know it yet. you use what you've got, and you share your information with your fellow hobbyists, new or old, and you learn from your mistakes, and you make improvements as needed. you never know, the "unworthy newbie" may just be the person who solves the mystery of pyramiding.

 

[Yvonne G]

I have excused myself for the most part from this, having said my piece earlier, but I am curious what would you consider a scientific study? how long term of a study are we talking about?

And in the meantime, the present day, multiple, many, many sulcata and leopard babies in the new tortoise-keepers hands will grow pyramided or die. Thank goodness for Tom's theory taking the forefront and not being tested in the background.

 

[onarock]

Thats a good question. I have thought about this myself and the answer is I dont know. Without knowing for certain the possible specific problems attributed to certain husbandry techniques then I would imagine it would be somewhere in the area of the tortoises life span. If there is an issue of bone density in overly humid tortoises, how long does that take to show itself. Further, just because a tortoises shell is smooth doesnt mean its healthy, wich only adds to the confusion. We could be over compinating with high humidity and an unnecissary amount of hydration because our technique is lacking in some other area, but the results we see with the smooth shell blinds us to the speculation or possibility that there could be an internal issue.

You know its funny. All I'm trying to advocate both here and on moswens thread is responsability. You know I recall a father posting on TFO that his young son had lost interest in his tortoise and the father wanted advice as to what to do. The guy got torched on here and I havnt seen him post since. Most of what I read was about his lack of responsability and someone actually called him a bad father. Marty333 had an issue with chevy (rip) and people attacked her calling her in-mature and her parents irresoponsable and some started setting standards of who should and shouldnt be able to keep tortoises.
But, when it comes to advocating responsability in regards to husbandry and the promotion no one wants to hear it. People want to start debates over why pyramiding occurs. I am trying to stay clear of that debate. I have a friend accuse me of thinking hes stupid. What? Most of what I read on TFO are posts of people saying, be responsable, when in doubt take it to the vet, be responsable, help your kids with the care, be responsable, get it the right lighting. etc.etc. But, if I say that I promote responsability when it comes to the promotion or advocation of certain husbandry methods, that doesnt seem to work here on TFO. I think TFO just became a read only forum for me. Aloha

 

[jackrat]

Good.