Early Russian hibernation

[phowlett]

I was going to refrigerate/hibernate my four Russians, but they have gone to ground in my inside enclosure already.(about 6 inches deep, sand, cypress mulch, organic potting soil & coconut). What should I do? Dig them up? The last couple of days 2 of them have been emerging, walking about, and reburying. I am concerned.
Should I soak them, offer food, turn on the heat light/more heat lamps etc? They're outside all summer until the nights get too cold... Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[ascott]

Well...have you ever prepared and facilitated brumation for a tortoise before? I ask that only so I have a reference point from which to offer you what I would do....

 

[GBtortoises]

I was going to refrigerate/hibernate my four Russians, but they have gone to ground in my inside enclosure already.(about 6 inches deep, sand, cypress mulch, organic potting soil & coconut). What should I do? Dig them up? The last couple of days 2 of them have been emerging, walking about, and reburying. I am concerned.
Should I soak them, offer food, turn on the heat light/more heat lamps etc? They're outside all summer until the nights get too cold... Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

What are the temperatures and light intensity and duration that they are currently being exposed to? You mention that they're indoors. They are not brumating (hibernating) if the temperatures and light are at normal activity levels. This is shown by the fact that they are coming above ground and walking around. Russian tortoises typically begin to start their brumation preparation long before they're brought indoors by their keepers. They actually begin in early to mid August, long before the temperature gets cold. Most keepers don't bring them indoors until the weather gets cold outside. In reality Russians (and other temperature climate species) sense the change in light intensity and duration which begins in August.
Indoors, if the temperatures remain within their activity levels and the light intensity and daylight hours remain as they would in the early and mid summer the tortoises will not begin brumation. This is how and why temperate climate tortoises are able to be kept awake and active throughout the winter indoors.

 

[phowlett]

I have not tried this before.
The ones that were walking around had been buried for a week before that. They walked around a day and went back to ground, have been buried the last 4 days or so.
Temperatures are approximately 50-60 degrees during the day, low to mid 40s to upper 30s at night so far. Only light is daylight from outside, normal cycle. Enclosure is 13 feet from my woodstove.
I worry about fat storage, overall health etc... I haven't fired up the woodstove yet so it won't be this cold for too much longer. My main concern is will there be stress caused by the heat from the woodstove? Will this disturb their possible brumation? If they come up do I keep them up or refrigerate them? Thanks.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Where are you located (add it to profile!) and from how long you brought them indoors? What conditions, esp. food during the season?
They get much colder than my outdoor ones, and mines still roam, but started digging their tunnels. Nothing abnormal, your tortoises behave normally according to the temperatures, already beginned hibernation. Of course if you will heat the room, they will be disturbed. It should stay under 10*C, better at 2-6*C, to have them sleeping.
Why are you worried about their weight and health? Something suspect?

 

[phowlett]

I live in Michigan and I brought them in early September when the nights became cold, greens during the summer(mustard, turnip, collard).
My concern is that improper brumation will weaken the RTs and leave them susceptible to other diseases.
I will start heating soon. Once the woodstove is lit and the temperature rises should I grab them when they come up and refrigerate them? Too much shock? Or should I adjust their light and heat and keep them up through the rest of winter?
I don't want to leave a stone unturned and wind up with four dead tortoises, want to be thorough. Trying to do this right.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Not that difficult to set a proper brumation, it even sounds ok what you have there. But making them resume activity and then putting them in fridge is wrong, that will boost them in activity right when they start to sleep deeper, and again in sleep. This is the only thing not to do- the others 2 are to be chosen:brumation is already on the way, awakening and overwintering if you want, but not that one.

Feeding these greens- not the best choices, these should be a very small part of the feeding, even less than 5%- they inhibit calcium absorption and may also favourise kidney stones (oxalates). Shift to a diet based on dandelion, cichory, alfalfa, clover, malva, sonchus, plantain, vetch, Opuntia humifusa (hardy cactus native to MI, once a week) etc.

 

[phowlett]

Yeah, it's hard when you have no reliable info, look for it on the forum, and everyone has contradictory opinions. For some one like me who wants to get it right, this is maddening. You read an entry that seems to give good advice and instantly someone contradicts it. With such guidance it will be a small miracle if these Russians live more than a couple of years.
I will check the grocery store for the items you mentioned, but maybe you meant weeds from the yard? They get about an hour grazing time in the yard, but they spend most of this time trying to make the great escape. Only two of them settle down to eat the plantar, clover and dandelion. I'll check on the cactus. Thank You.

Not that difficult to set a proper brumation, it even sounds ok what you have there. But making them resume activity and then putting them in fridge is wrong, that will boost them in activity right when they start to sleep deeper, and again in sleep. This is the only thing not to do- the others 2 are to be chosen:brumation is already on the way, awakening and overwintering if you want, but not that one.

Feeding these greens- not the best choices, these should be a very small part of the feeding, even less than 5%- they inhibit calcium absorption and may also favourise kidney stones (oxalates). Shift to a diet based on dandelion, cichory, alfalfa, clover, malva, sonchus, plantain, vetch, Opuntia humifusa (hardy cactus native to MI, once a week) etc.

 

[ascott]

I believe you ultimately will need to decide to either facilitate brumation or to overwinter them. Once you have decided whole heartedly which way then you can act accordingly. If they are a little chunky and are very well hydrated and have no apparent health issues and you decide to brumate I personally would move them to a quiet, dark and cool place so they can settle in...but only after they have had a few weeks of zero food consumption and during this few weeks I would soak them every couple of days in warm water to be sure you help them move out any food in their gut as well as hydrating them....and because this is your first time I would suggest they are in a place you can check on them once a week with little disturbance...also after they appear to have settled then on your periodic checks you can give a little tickle to their foot which will give you a chance to hear them expel a clear puff of breath and if not wet sound during that puff of breath then leave them be...also look at their general appearance...not getting puffy eyes not dropping too much weight and such...also have a general time frame that you will begin your slow wake up....yes, there is alot of conflicting info and that is generally fueled by opinions on whether to brumate or not....don't be scared but rather be as prepared as you can...also if you have not had the tort for at least a whole year of seasons I personally would not brumate...also if you really are not feeling as though you are skilled at it then hold off until you are...you know what I mean?

 

[phowlett]

Hey GB, having problems with the fact that if you ask a question to 30 members here, you will get 30 different answers. Hypothetical question; if you were from a pure white area with pure white foods in their grocery stores, what would be your best guess as to what to feed your Russian tortoises in order to ensure their health. What might be my best options to provide correct food. Everyone has different answers and I don't fully trust them. You seem trustworthy. Thanks.

I was going to refrigerate/hibernate my four Russians, but they have gone to ground in my inside enclosure already.(about 6 inches deep, sand, cypress mulch, organic potting soil & coconut). What should I do? Dig them up? The last couple of days 2 of them have been emerging, walking about, and reburying. I am concerned.
Should I soak them, offer food, turn on the heat light/more heat lamps etc? They're outside all summer until the nights get too cold... Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

What are the temperatures and light intensity and duration that they are currently being exposed to? You mention that they're indoors. They are not brumating (hibernating) if the temperatures and light are at normal activity levels. This is shown by the fact that they are coming above ground and walking around. Russian tortoises typically begin to start their brumation preparation long before they're brought indoors by their keepers. They actually begin in early to mid August, long before the temperature gets cold. Most keepers don't bring them indoors until the weather gets cold outside. In reality Russians (and other temperature climate species) sense the change in light intensity and duration which begins in August.
Indoors, if the temperatures remain within their activity levels and the light intensity and daylight hours remain as they would in the early and mid summer the tortoises will not begin brumation. This is how and why temperate climate tortoises are able to be kept awake and active throughout the winter indoors.

 

[GBtortoises]

Hey GB, having problems with the fact that if you ask a question to 30 members here, you will get 30 different answers. Hypothetical question; if you were from a pure white area with pure white foods in their grocery stores, what would be your best guess as to what to feed your Russian tortoises in order to ensure their health. What might be my best options to provide correct food. Everyone has different answers and I don't fully trust them. You seem trustworthy. Thanks.

I was going to refrigerate/hibernate my four Russians, but they have gone to ground in my inside enclosure already.(about 6 inches deep, sand, cypress mulch, organic potting soil & coconut). What should I do? Dig them up? The last couple of days 2 of them have been emerging, walking about, and reburying. I am concerned.
Should I soak them, offer food, turn on the heat light/more heat lamps etc? They're outside all summer until the nights get too cold... Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

What are the temperatures and light intensity and duration that they are currently being exposed to? You mention that they're indoors. They are not brumating (hibernating) if the temperatures and light are at normal activity levels. This is shown by the fact that they are coming above ground and walking around. Russian tortoises typically begin to start their brumation preparation long before they're brought indoors by their keepers. They actually begin in early to mid August, long before the temperature gets cold. Most keepers don't bring them indoors until the weather gets cold outside. In reality Russians (and other temperature climate species) sense the change in light intensity and duration which begins in August.
Indoors, if the temperatures remain within their activity levels and the light intensity and daylight hours remain as they would in the early and mid summer the tortoises will not begin brumation. This is how and why temperate climate tortoises are able to be kept awake and active throughout the winter indoors.

The first best choices would be several weeds that grow wild throughout the northern U.S. But of course those aren't available in the winter and are often more difficult to come by for city dwellers in the summer months.
Russians tend to prefer broad leafed greens over more vine type of plants. Many of the grocery store greens are or come close to matching the type of foods that they are attracted to such as: Endive, escarole, kale, romaine, beet greens, mustard greens, collard greens and similar greens. Regular green and read leaf lettuce can be fed occasionally but have poor nutrional value so should not be a regular part of their diet. Spinach as well can be fed sparingly. Most Mediterranean tortoises can have spinach on a regular basis. But Russians, which are usually classified as Mediterraneans, but really are not, do not usually drink as regularly as many other Testudo species do. Because of this Spinach and other food that may be higher in iodine or oxalic acid should be fed more sparingly than foods that are lower in those elements. That's not to say that they cannot or should not be fed spinach and other similar foods. They are very high in nutrional value. But they should be fed sparingly and not as a part of their regular diet.

 

[ascott]

Hey GB, having problems with the fact that if you ask a question to 30 members here, you will get 30 different answers. Hypothetical question; if you were from a pure white area with pure white foods in their grocery stores, what would be your best guess as to what to feed your Russian tortoises in order to ensure their health. What might be my best options to provide correct food. Everyone has different answers and I don't fully trust them. You seem trustworthy. Thanks.

Wow, what a way to shut yourself down....just for the record, I too value GBs input....but again, way to limit yourself...

 

[CactusVinnie]

Yeah Angela... it seems that those "30" were mainly me, at least for this thread, and I really spend some time to help, as I was helped once. It is my way of thinking that if you got something for free, that is not also granted, and somehow you are in debt and it seems fair to do the same at your turn. I already inclined the ballance to myself, giving at least as much that I received. But sometimes... regretting even the 5 minutes offered.

I would first technically digg the infos about people giving advices and find if they can sustain their words with facts, if I am in doubt- or at least thinking at the logic in their words and putting them together in order to understand them- but not throwing that easy such words. At least he was sincere, didn't he?