Dwarfs

[Greek914]

OK, the thread about "dwarf" redfoots got me thinking. How awesome would true dwarf tortoises be. Difficult yes, multi-generational (human) probably.... possible, I think so. We have created so many morphs and variations in other reptiles, but relatively little in tortoises. Would this take too much effort? I would think the demand for a tortoise that never got over say 4" would be immense.
Is anyone working on this?

Are tortoise genetics just not plastic enough?

Thoughts?

 

[EricIvins]

It wouldn't be "immense" at all with that 4" law in the way........

There are already Tortoise species that fit the typical 6" "Pet" size, so why try to re-invent the wheel?

 

[wellington]

Why change a already good thing. Humans always have to change things and it usually screws it up. Leave well enough alone. Get a hermanns or Greek or Russian if you want a smaller tort.

 

[Tortus]

Well, we have done it with dogs and horses. We've also selectively bred rabbits and cats to create new "breeds". We've created all types of hairless mammals.

I think it would be interesting for someone without a lot of space who may want a sulcata or leopard. I don't see how breeding them to be smaller (if possible) is any worse than doing it to a mammal.

But if you think about it, the appeal of certain breeds is the fact that they do grow larger.

 

[wellington]

Well, we have done it with dogs and horses. We've also selectively bred rabbits and cats to create new "breeds". We've created all types of hairless mammals.

I think it would be interesting for someone without a lot of space who may want a sulcata or leopard. I don't see how breeding them to be smaller (if possible) is any worse than doing it to a mammal.

But if you think about it, the appeal of certain breeds is the fact that they do grow larger.

Personally, I'm not happy about it being done with any breed, species, of any kind.

 

[Shannon and Jason]

I don't believe it should be done for that matter with any pieces. Just because "it's been done before" with other pieces doesn't make it right.......I also agree humans usually end up messing things up when they play with nature.

 

[Tortus]

We have bred certain health conditions into certain breeds of dogs. But if it wasn't for selective breeding to create different sizes, many people wouldn't be able to own one. In fact smaller breeds tend to live much longer than larger breeds. If we didn't mess with nature we'd have nothing but wolves, right? Since domesticated dogs come from wolves?

I'm not sure if any of this is relevant when it comes to tortoises though. I've always wanted a miniature giraffe but that's another topic...

 

[RedfootsRule]

I don't think humans have any right to mess with the creations of God in any way....

Snakes were meant to have scales. Here we are breeding "scale-less snakes" ad advertising them as something wonderful. Dogs were meant to be wolves. Not going to say I am not a happy owner of many dogs, but in the beginning, I don't think it should have been done to the extant it has been. We've created breeds such as great danes, "selectively breeding" them to the point where there hearts cannot support their bodies for more then a few years.
Cats also. Most all cats descend from the jungle cat felis chaus, but we have bred them to the point where they have smushed faces and troubled breathing....

I would hate nothing more then to see this happen to tortoises....And the health problems that would very likely associate it. Everything is made to be the way it is. When we breed it smaller, bigger, even furrier, nothing good will come from it.

 

[tickle]

They are a small tort any way so I don't see the endgame in this.investment would be huge and profits low.I feel humans can ans will crossbreed and selective breed foreever and find nothing wrong with it. We do it with areselves looking for best women or men with good traits and Intel.I just don't see how to even make a dwarf tortoises evolve very slowly it would take a century

 

[Greek914]

Most of the "smaller torts" still are not very small and the ones that are, are extremely rare and difficult to care for.

I would like to push this topic into a slightly different direction. The ethical arguments I am sure, have been hashed out in any number of other platforms, but what about the genetic?
One obstetrical that jumps out to me is smaller females becoming egg bound(ing). Are there others? I am personally unfamiliar with genetic plasticity in tortoises, but it seems like there are relatively few (and not particularly dramatic ones at that) variations within species. Is this a genetic issue or one of choice?
I could be way off base here, all I am saying is that I have not seen them. I have seen albinism, slightly reduced/enhanced pigment in some sliders (and one box) but nothing on the scale of say balls or corn snakes. Has anyone ever seen what could have been a "foundation" animal?

 

[RedfootsRule]

Selective breeding and evolution are two completely different things...

Selective breeding is the manifestation of the animals underlying genetic ability. Evolution is mans artificial escape from creation. It is completely false and has absolutely no scientific validity...Only by ignoring advances in genetics have the fictions of evolution been maintained.

 

[Baoh]

Selective breeding and evolution are two completely different things...

Selective breeding is the manifestation of the animals underlying genetic ability. Evolution is mans artificial escape from creation. It is completely false and has absolutely no scientific validity...Only by ignoring advances in genetics have the fictions of evolution been maintained.

I had a conversation with God. He told me your notions were incorrect.

 

[redfoot7]

I'm sure it could be done with certain species, but I wouldn't support it. Just look at reticulated pythons and boa constrictors. I know they are completely different than tortoises, but there are dwarf retics that stay around 12' and boas that mature around 4'-5'. That's almost a %50 decrease in size, produced in the past 15-20 years from selectively breeding smaller localities x the runts in other litters, etc. The end result is a smaller designer animal, and a whole bunch of unwanted mutts created in the process.

Back to the OP though... like others said, there would be no point in mixing the gene pool anymore than it is already when there are readily available species that stay around or under 6". It would also only be possible with certain species that show a lot of variance in size, such as Redfoots and Leopards. Plus the rate tortoises reproduce, and resources required, it would take a ton of money and time for no beneficial reason. The negative list could go on and on....

 

[Baoh]

For a more serious post on my part, I was considering working on hybrids of smaller species. I assembled a variety of smaller tortoise types for this purpose. I think the easier ability for more folks to handle them in apartment-style living situations throughout maturity could have appeal. Generating particularly attractive patterns and coloration could be other points of appeal. They can be sold the same way babies are now if one is concerned about the 4" law. Never bulletproof, but a viable option that probably would not turn any more unwanted heads than the current situation. In order for this to take off broadly and be profitable, they would have to be small, they would have to be attractive, and they would need to look distinctly different from the smaller species that are currently available. An alternative that could sell dull or non-distinct results would be low price, but I do not advise that or you run into devaluation for a large number of individuals and you also get a greater chance of concerns regarding muddied waters when breeding and selling as people either do not care or will lose track. If done at all, I would like to see such things done with a sense of responsibility and clarity of information surrounding the product.

With that said, I do not feel the same enthusiasm for working with small tortoises these days that I feel for working with large ones, so I will probably keep my experiments confined to the larger types.

 

[Yvonne G]

I may be way off base here, because I really don't know what I'm talking about, but` what popped into my mind is that you can see the results of your "playing with nature" in mammals much sooner than you can with tortoises. I'm sure it didn't take very long at all to breed certain traits into, for example, dogs. Not too many generations to see if what you did worked. But tortoises take so long to grow, I think it would just take to long to realize if your experiment is working or not.

 

[Tortus]

If people want to bring God into it, as I've been told here he's given us dominion over animals, so we're free to do what we want with them.

Selective breeding and evolution are two completely different things...

Selective breeding is the manifestation of the animals underlying genetic ability. Evolution is mans artificial escape from creation. It is completely false and has absolutely no scientific validity...Only by ignoring advances in genetics have the fictions of evolution been maintained.

I had a conversation with God. He told me your notions were incorrect.

Evolution seems to be nature's version selective breeding. The most successful animals in an particular ecosystem are able to breed, therefor passing their characteristics on to the next generation. If said ecosystem is more favorable for smaller animals, then they would evolve to be smaller. Selective breeding is pretty much forced evolution.

I don't know how anyone can even fathom doubting evolution in this day and age.

 

[tickle]

I no evolution is diff that's not what I Kent.I Kent tortoise took a long time to evolve the way they are and I breeding program to produce bonzai's/dwarf soul take forever since they evolve so slow.sorry this kindle sux

 

[Baoh]

I may be way off base here, because I really don't know what I'm talking about, but` what popped into my mind is that you can see the results of your "playing with nature" in mammals much sooner than you can with tortoises. I'm sure it didn't take very long at all to breed certain traits into, for example, dogs. Not too many generations to see if what you did worked. But tortoises take so long to grow, I think it would just take to long to realize if your experiment is working or not.

It is exactly a matter of generation time, as you mentioned. Leopard geckos are fast, and so we have had many, many traits emerge which can be evaluated and incorporated into projects. If you create something on the scale of a red ear slider farm for high-fecundity tortoises (such as the sulcata), you may be able to see things happen faster. That is just for random mutations, though. Line breeding will take more careful involvement and time/generations because of the nuances involved in progress from one point to another.

 

[RedfootsRule]

If people want to bring God into it, as I've been told here he's given us dominion over animals, so we're free to do what we want with them.

Selective breeding and evolution are two completely different things...

Selective breeding is the manifestation of the animals underlying genetic ability. Evolution is mans artificial escape from creation. It is completely false and has absolutely no scientific validity...Only by ignoring advances in genetics have the fictions of evolution been maintained.

I had a conversation with God. He told me your notions were incorrect.

Evolution seems to be nature's version selective breeding. The most successful animals in an particular ecosystem are able to breed, therefor passing their characteristics on to the next generation. If said ecosystem is more favorable for smaller animals, then they would evolve to be smaller. Selective breeding is pretty much forced evolution.

I don't know how anyone can even fathom doubting evolution in this day and age.

Thats intersting. "At this day and age" I can't even fathom how someone can believe evolution...Can you explain to me polonium-214 in crystalline granite? How about the fact that for the most MINIMAL cell to evolve, the chance would be 1x10 to the 4,478,296 power? Keep it mind this is for a very minimal cell...For a more advanced one, I believe humans do not have a number to put to the chance...

However, a discussion on evolution belongs in the debate section, not here...So lets get back to dwarf tortoises.

 

[Jacqui]

I don't really see how breeding for a smaller size, is all that much more wrong or different then breeding for color as in for example more red in a cherryhead, more white in a leopard. I think a great many folks would love to have an aldabra tortoise if it would stay more the size of say a leopad tortoise.