Confused about outdoor night/box temperature recommendations

[SinLA]

I have read @Tom ‘s FAQs but I am still a little confused about the recommendations for the temperature for an enclosed/insulated box in an outdoor enclosure. I have a 4-5ish (?) yo rescue Russian, around 4.5” long, 15.3 ounces, location is Burbank CA.

On the one hand it sounds like recommendations are to keep a night box around 65 to 70° but then it also seems like the box should also be kept hot enough to be used as an alternative warming source in the day, in case it is cool/overcast/rainy outside - so maybe 90s (?) Degrees.

So… do you constantly adjust the temp of the box according to day vs night temp needs? Seems like a thermostat with two settings would make most sense if that’s the case, but I’m not sure that I’m understanding the recommendations correctly…

basically, I guess my question is, do I just set the box thermostat to have one temperature, or do I need to have it be warm “enough” at night, and then much warmer during the day in case ambient weather is too cool…

thanks for helping me understand…

 

[Tom]

I have read @Tom ‘s FAQs but I am still a little confused about the recommendations for the temperature for an enclosed/insulated box in an outdoor enclosure. I have a 4-5ish (?) yo rescue Russian, around 4.5” long, 15.3 ounces, location is Burbank CA.

On the one hand it sounds like recommendations are to keep a night box around 65 to 70° but then it also seems like the box should also be kept hot enough to be used as an alternative warming source in the day, in case it is cool/overcast/rainy outside - so maybe 90s (?) Degrees.

So… do you constantly adjust the temp of the box according to day vs night temp needs? Seems like a thermostat with two settings would make most sense if that’s the case, but I’m not sure that I’m understanding the recommendations correctly…

basically, I guess my question is, do I just set the box thermostat to have one temperature, or do I need to have it be warm “enough” at night, and then much warmer during the day in case ambient weather is too cool…

thanks for helping me understand…

I have a radiant oil heater set on a thermostat. A RHP would probably work too, but I haven't tried that in this application. For most of every year I set the ambient temp with this heater at 60-65. I'm not using it to make the box "warm". I'm just using this heater and thermostat to keep the night time low from dropping TOO low for most of the year.

During the day for most of the year we have warm sunny days. The tortoise can come out and bask in the sun to warm up. No need for any additional heat on this kind of day. I hibernate them in the winter so the box is unplugged. The issue that we run into here in our climate (I'm in SCV, just a little North of you) is that in early spring and late fall, it will be 90 one day and 55 and over cast two days later. If its cold and cloudy in the spring time after your tortoise is up from brumation and eating again, they need some way to warm up during our cold spells. I use a 65 watt incandescent flood lamp set on a timer for this. It makes a nice warm area under it, lights up the inside of the box, and heats the ambient temp in the box up quite a bit on a cold day. The timer kicks it off at sunset, and the temperature gradually drops down until it hit that 60-65 mark, and then the thermostat kicks the heater on to keep it from getting any colder over night. The next morning, the heat lamp is kicked back on by its timer. I do watch the weather and if the daytime highs are reaching high 60s or more and sunny, then I leave the heat lamp off. I either unscrew the bulb a little, or turn it off with a switch. I suspect the bulb will stay off until late fall, but we do get those odd May cold spells every year.

When fall rolls around I keep feeding the temperate tortoises through October since daytime temps often reach into the 90s in October. It is usually cold by early November, so I stop feeding them, but keep using the heat lamp so that they can empty their gut before hibernation. Using this system, it doesn't matter how cold it gets night or day, because my tort has the temperatures it needs to function correctly. Toward the end of November, I start shortening the day length on my heat lamp timer, and set the thermostat on the ambient heater about 5 degrees lower every couple few nights until I finally just shut everything off and let it get consistency cold. The insulated boxes keep them from getting too cold when night temps get near freezing, and they also prevent them from getting too warm on a warm sunny December day. For some species, if it stays consistently cold enough in the box, I will let them hibernate outside like this. Average temps in my boxes during most of winter will be 40-50F, and that is perfect for DTs, Chersina, eastern hermanns, and most greeks. It doesn't get consistently cold enough for Russians, so at some point the Russians come inside to a fridge that is set to about 38-39F. Any warmer than that and they are too active and restless. Colder than that and you risk freezing their eyeballs if the temp dips a little too much in your fridge.

When spring temps start to rise, usually late Feb or early March, I put the Russians back outside in their boxes with no heat and let them warm up gradually. Over time, I turn the heater on with it set down around 50-55, and the tortoises can come out and bask to get warm if they want. I gradually up the thermostat back up to 60-65 over the course of a couple of weeks, and use the heat lamp during the day if the weather isn't cooperating.

To recap:
1. Ambient heat is maintained by a thermostat and a radiant oil heater.
2. A basking lamp on a timer is used only if needed due to cold weather.
3. Temps are adjusted seasonally, as needed.

This gives them the best of all worlds and they thrive.

 

[Yvonne G]

In my opinion, a russian tortoise living in Burbank, Calif. Doesn't need a heated night box. How cold do your nights get in Burbank?

 

[Tom]

In my opinion, a russian tortoise living in Burbank, Calif. Doesn't need a heated night box. How cold do your nights get in Burbank?

Down to freezing in winter. 30s and low 40s is common all winter. Its about 20 miles south of me. 50s and low 60s this time of year, in which case the thermostat would simply keep the heat shut off. I don't advocate a "heated" box. I recommend a box where the temperature is simply kept above brumation level temps at night when we have cold spells.

 

[SinLA]

In my opinion, a russian tortoise living in Burbank, Calif. Doesn't need a heated night box. How cold do your nights get in Burbank?

They go into the 40s during winter, 50s most of the rest of the time. Occasionally 30s but it’s rare… if a heat wave it can stay in the 70s but that’s also rare

 

[SinLA]

I have a radiant oil heater set on a thermostat. A RHP would probably work too, but I haven't tried that in this application. For most of every year I set the ambient temp with this heater at 60-65. I'm not using it to make the box "warm". I'm just using this heater and thermostat to keep the night time low from dropping TOO low for most of the year.

During the day for most of the year we have warm sunny days. The tortoise can come out and bask in the sun to warm up. No need for any additional heat on this kind of day. I hibernate them in the winter so the box is unplugged. The issue that we run into here in our climate (I'm in SCV, just a little North of you) is that in early spring and late fall, it will be 90 one day and 55 and over cast two days later. If its cold and cloudy in the spring time after your tortoise is up from brumation and eating again, they need some way to warm up during our cold spells. I use a 65 watt incandescent flood lamp set on a timer for this. It makes a nice warm area under it, lights up the inside of the box, and heats the ambient temp in the box up quite a bit on a cold day. The timer kicks it off at sunset, and the temperature gradually drops down until it hit that 60-65 mark, and then the thermostat kicks the heater on to keep it from getting any colder over night. The next morning, the heat lamp is kicked back on by its timer. I do watch the weather and if the daytime highs are reaching high 60s or more and sunny, then I leave the heat lamp off. I either unscrew the bulb a little, or turn it off with a switch. I suspect the bulb will stay off until late fall, but we do get those odd May cold spells every year.

When fall rolls around I keep feeding the temperate tortoises through October since daytime temps often reach into the 90s in October. It is usually cold by early November, so I stop feeding them, but keep using the heat lamp so that they can empty their gut before hibernation. Using this system, it doesn't matter how cold it gets night or day, because my tort has the temperatures it needs to function correctly. Toward the end of November, I start shortening the day length on my heat lamp timer, and set the thermostat on the ambient heater about 5 degrees lower every couple few nights until I finally just shut everything off and let it get consistency cold. The insulated boxes keep them from getting too cold when night temps get near freezing, and they also prevent them from getting too warm on a warm sunny December day. For some species, if it stays consistently cold enough in the box, I will let them hibernate outside like this. Average temps in my boxes during most of winter will be 40-50F, and that is perfect for DTs, Chersina, eastern hermanns, and most greeks. It doesn't get consistently cold enough for Russians, so at some point the Russians come inside to a fridge that is set to about 38-39F. Any warmer than that and they are too active and restless. Colder than that and you risk freezing their eyeballs if the temp dips a little too much in your fridge.

When spring temps start to rise, usually late Feb or early March, I put the Russians back outside in their boxes with no heat and let them warm up gradually. Over time, I turn the heater on with it set down around 50-55, and the tortoises can come out and bask to get warm if they want. I gradually up the thermostat back up to 60-65 over the course of a couple of weeks, and use the heat lamp during the day if the weather isn't cooperating.

To recap:
1. Ambient heat is maintained by a thermostat and a radiant oil heater.
2. A basking lamp on a timer is used only if needed due to cold weather.
3. Temps are adjusted seasonally, as needed.

This gives them the best of all worlds and they thrive.

Ok I think we are saying the same thing with “heated box”. I don’t plan on having him bromate this year so I’ll adjust accordingly.

how many “cold” days - not sunny 70+ - would you do before providing basking heat? Like even if it’s one bad day, or just if he can’t get sun after a few days? This time of year thru the fall shouldn’t be an issue it will be warm enough most days but we might have occasional cool patches….

 

[SinLA]

I have a radiant oil heater set on a thermostat. A RHP would probably work too, but I haven't tried that in this application. For most of every year I set the ambient temp with this heater at 60-65. I'm not using it to make the box "warm". I'm just using this heater and thermostat to keep the night time low from dropping TOO low for most of the year.

During the day for most of the year we have warm sunny days. The tortoise can come out and bask in the sun to warm up. No need for any additional heat on this kind of day. I hibernate them in the winter so the box is unplugged. The issue that we run into here in our climate (I'm in SCV, just a little North of you) is that in early spring and late fall, it will be 90 one day and 55 and over cast two days later. If its cold and cloudy in the spring time after your tortoise is up from brumation and eating again, they need some way to warm up during our cold spells. I use a 65 watt incandescent flood lamp set on a timer for this. It makes a nice warm area under it, lights up the inside of the box, and heats the ambient temp in the box up quite a bit on a cold day. The timer kicks it off at sunset, and the temperature gradually drops down until it hit that 60-65 mark, and then the thermostat kicks the heater on to keep it from getting any colder over night. The next morning, the heat lamp is kicked back on by its timer. I do watch the weather and if the daytime highs are reaching high 60s or more and sunny, then I leave the heat lamp off. I either unscrew the bulb a little, or turn it off with a switch. I suspect the bulb will stay off until late fall, but we do get those odd May cold spells every year.

When fall rolls around I keep feeding the temperate tortoises through October since daytime temps often reach into the 90s in October. It is usually cold by early November, so I stop feeding them, but keep using the heat lamp so that they can empty their gut before hibernation. Using this system, it doesn't matter how cold it gets night or day, because my tort has the temperatures it needs to function correctly. Toward the end of November, I start shortening the day length on my heat lamp timer, and set the thermostat on the ambient heater about 5 degrees lower every couple few nights until I finally just shut everything off and let it get consistency cold. The insulated boxes keep them from getting too cold when night temps get near freezing, and they also prevent them from getting too warm on a warm sunny December day. For some species, if it stays consistently cold enough in the box, I will let them hibernate outside like this. Average temps in my boxes during most of winter will be 40-50F, and that is perfect for DTs, Chersina, eastern hermanns, and most greeks. It doesn't get consistently cold enough for Russians, so at some point the Russians come inside to a fridge that is set to about 38-39F. Any warmer than that and they are too active and restless. Colder than that and you risk freezing their eyeballs if the temp dips a little too much in your fridge.

When spring temps start to rise, usually late Feb or early March, I put the Russians back outside in their boxes with no heat and let them warm up gradually. Over time, I turn the heater on with it set down around 50-55, and the tortoises can come out and bask to get warm if they want. I gradually up the thermostat back up to 60-65 over the course of a couple of weeks, and use the heat lamp during the day if the weather isn't cooperating.

To recap:
1. Ambient heat is maintained by a thermostat and a radiant oil heater.
2. A basking lamp on a timer is used only if needed due to cold weather.
3. Temps are adjusted seasonally, as needed.

This gives them the best of all worlds and they thrive.

THis is very helpful thanks!

 

[Tom]

Ok I think we are saying the same thing with “heated box”. I don’t plan on having him bromate this year so I’ll adjust accordingly.

how many “cold” days - not sunny 70+ - would you do before providing basking heat? Like even if it’s one bad day, or just if he can’t get sun after a few days? This time of year thru the fall shouldn’t be an issue it will be warm enough most days but we might have occasional cool patches….

One cold over cast day certainly won't kill them, but if they've got food in their gut I like to give them the option to warm up every day. If Mother Nature doesn't provide my tortoises with warm sunshine, then I provide it for them.

None of this is set in stone. Russians tend to be very hardy and adaptable. They will survive just about any care routine in just about any North American climate. Our climate is pretty mild, but we still get those cold nights most of the year. Many people just leave them outside with nothing and they survive year after year. Time, trial and error, and experiences has taught me that while they can survive outside here, they do better and thrive when I offer optimal conditions vs. survivable conditions.

 

[SinLA]

One cold over cast day certainly won't kill them, but if they've got food in their gut I like to give them the option to warm up every day. If Mother Nature doesn't provide my tortoises with warm sunshine, then I provide it for them.

None of this is set in stone. Russians tend to be very hardy and adaptable. They will survive just about any care routine in just about any North American climate. Our climate is pretty mild, but we still get those cold nights most of the year. Many people just leave them outside with nothing and they survive year after year. Time, trial and error, and experiences has taught me that while they can survive outside here, they do better and thrive when I offer optimal conditions vs. survivable conditions.

Yes, as I'm learning about reptiles as pets (really, anything exotic) its pretty horrifying how "its enough to survive" seems to be the norm because that's what people find easy. Coming from the dog/cat world, its been a real shock... i feel badly for so many of them...

 

[Tom]

Yes, as I'm learning about reptiles as pets (really, anything exotic) its pretty horrifying how "its enough to survive" seems to be the norm because that's what people find easy. Coming from the dog/cat world, its been a real shock... i feel badly for so many of them...

I've been working to improve the situation tirelessly for decades. Many of the people who have argued these points with me over all the years have only ever done it their way. I come along and recommend and unconventional or different way that I have found through experimentation and much trial and error to work better, and some people really go off the deep end with insults, attacks, and other such non-sense. They argue from a position of complete ignorance since they have never tried what is being recommended, but I am arguing from the position of knowing and trying both methods and being able to compare and contrast. And I don't even mention these ideas until I have thoroughly tested them and observed the results over a long time period. Its amusing to me at this point watching them paint themselves into a corner and then get mad at me for what they've done to themselves.

Luckily, there are not currently any people like that here on the forum right now. Everyone here is respectful and courteous even when we disagree about some points. We have many members here with decades of experience to share, and even those members seem to enjoy learning of new developments and trying out new things. You begin to understand why some of the old timers have had so much success when you see their ability to assimilate new info and try out new and improved ideas. Many veterans simply won't, can't or don't learn the new stuff to their own detriment and the detriment of the animals in their care. I admire and respect the people who were doing this long before I was even born, and are still learning new things. I hope there is some kid out there that is going to learn more and improve upon the things I've learned and teach me how to do it better in the years to come. I'm pretty stubborn and pig headed about some things, but I'm eager to learn new and better ways to improve the lives of the animals in my care. I'll gladly accept knowledge from anyone of any age or experience level if what they say makes sense.

 

[SinLA]

One cold over cast day certainly won't kill them, but if they've got food in their gut I like to give them the option to warm up every day. If Mother Nature doesn't provide my tortoises with warm sunshine, then I provide it for them.

None of this is set in stone. Russians tend to be very hardy and adaptable. They will survive just about any care routine in just about any North American climate. Our climate is pretty mild, but we still get those cold nights most of the year. Many people just leave them outside with nothing and they survive year after year. Time, trial and error, and experiences has taught me that while they can survive outside here, they do better and thrive when I offer optimal conditions vs. survivable conditions.

Hey @Tom you say you round yours up at night and make sure they are in their boxes, is it ok to take them out of a burrow they have dug for themselves? Is that traumatic for them to be pulled out of a burrow? Right now mine is picking a sunny spot to burrow so he ends up with topshell or butt exposed to the sun, but everything else underground. I have pretty tough clay ground but he’s good at getting a few inches down. I just feel bad taking him out of his burrow and he sure doesn’t like it either…. Still setting up the enclosure and getting substrate down but he likes digging in the grass so far…

 

[Tom]

Hey @Tom you say you round yours up at night and make sure they are in their boxes, is it ok to take them out of a burrow they have dug for themselves? Is that traumatic for them to be pulled out of a burrow? Right now mine is picking a sunny spot to burrow so he ends up with topshell or butt exposed to the sun, but everything else underground. I have pretty tough clay ground but he’s good at getting a few inches down. I just feel bad taking him out of his burrow and he sure doesn’t like it either…. Still setting up the enclosure and getting substrate down but he likes digging in the grass so far…

If you leave them outside, rat, raccoon, or insect damage is likely. I would find each and every one of mine, underground or not, and put them in their night shelters.

 

[SinLA]

Yes that is my plan I was just wondering if it was traumatic for them to be pulled out of their burrows In order to be moved to safety.

Speaking of rats, do you have issues with them wanting to live in your substrate? It seems like it would be tempting for them…

 

[Tom]

Yes that is my plan I was just wondering if it was traumatic for them to be pulled out of their burrows In order to be moved to safety.

Speaking of rats, do you have issues with them wanting to live in your substrate? It seems like it would be tempting for them…

I have no idea what their mental perception of being dug up and put in the safety of the night box is, and I never cared even a little. Being chewed on by a nocturnal predator would be far more traumatic to them.

I've never had rats in my substrate, but I have had rats running around the enclosure at night. The substrate is contained inside the closed box, so they can't get to it.