Captive Bred Vs Wild Caught

[KatyshaB]

About a month ago, I got a female Russian Tort named Natalie. I got her for breeding purposes, but when I got her she was REALLY tame, she would hang her head out and let you pet it when you picked her up. She is 7 in long, and I believe she is captive bred, they said at the store where I got her that almost all of there animals are captive bred. Now, moving on to my male tort, Bosley. I've had him for four years, he is very shy and I do think he is wild caught because for one, we WILL NOT let you touch his head. And he was a lot more stressed when we first got him. (He is fine now, we took care to make sure he was healthy), now before I begin to ask my question let me tell you I'm not asking the question: "Witch one is better, wild caught or captive bred". I would prefer a captive bred tort (If I knew Bosley was wild caught I wouldn't have gotten him) because of the way they treat wild caught ones in shipping. Anyway, one day I came home and Natalie was upside down pressed against the wall (I will try to post a picture) after taking a picture I quickly flipped her back and wondered what happened. I think Natalie was climbing her log when she flipped and tumbled backwards. Thankfully she was not upside-down long because she hadn't started struggling when I first saw her. Now, Bosley has climbed up onto his log many times and never fallen. He also likes to dig more than Natalie does. So does Bosley have more of an instinct to climb and dig, then Natalie. Because wouldn't Natalie still have the instinct to climb, captive bred or not?

 

[Merrick]

I am not sure if it is captivity or not it may just be that one is a little bit more "wild"

 

[Yvonne G]

At 7" your female is most certainly wild caught. The U.S. is way behind the curve when it comes to breeding the Russian tortoises. We've not been at it long enough to have an adult Russian tortoise that big. She's probably just from a previous home where they handled her a lot.

Some tortoises are able to turn themselves back over when the flip, and some aren't. It's a pretty good guess that the male flipped her. They're pretty rough when it comes to breeding females. It would be a very good idea for you to have two enclosures, only putting them together to breed, then separating them again. I've seen females with bitten off eyelids, missing leg spurs, etc. The males are ferocious breeders.

 

[wellington]

As Yvonnd said. They should not live in the same enclosure, specially russians unless you have one make to several females and in a very large enclosure, bigger then most could have in a house and with a lot of sight barriers. Even then the male may have to live alone or even a bully of a female.

 

[KatyshaB]

As Yvonnd said. They should not live in the same enclosure, specially Russians unless you have one make to several females and in a very large enclosure, bigger then most could have in a house and with a lot of sight barriers. Even then the male may have to live alone or even a bully of a female.

They are in separate enclosures. I only put them together a several times a year for them to breed. She flipped herself on her own, probably from climbing her log and then falling down. The place I got Bosley from mistreated there tortoises. Bosley was in an enclosure with like ten other torts. So I believe he is wild caught. And I also assume that he and the other torts had just been caught and shipped and not handled by any other person. The place I got Natalie, said that most of there animals where captive bred, now this could just be some silly old propaganda, but her medical records where perfect, when most wild caught torts have some parasite of some sort, her cage was clean she was with an other male but they said they never saw them mate. So either way, I think Natalie was treated better wild caught or no, so could the way they have been treated effect there instinct?

 

[wellington]

They are in separate enclosures. I only put them together a several times a year for them to breed. She flipped herself on her own, probably from climbing her log and then falling down. The place I got Bosley from mistreated there tortoises. Bosley was in an enclosure with like ten other torts. So I believe he is wild caught. And I also assume that he and the other torts had just been caught and shipped and not handled by any other person. The place I got Natalie, said that most of there animals where captive bred, now this could just be some silly old propaganda, but her medical records where perfect, when most wild caught torts have some parasite of some sort, her cage was clean she was with an other male but they said they never saw them mate. So either way, I think Natalie was treated better wild caught or no, so could the way they have been treated effect there instinct?

That's something we will never know. My guess is that we can not effect their instinct. Some can right themselves others can't. She probably tried before you found her. The one time I seen my one tort flip, it struggled to right itself and then just laid there when it couldn't do it.
I would play it safe and put something in front of the logs so she can't even try to climb them.

 

[KatyshaB]

Natalie might have been able to flip herself back, she started using her head and lift herself up and her legs to jerk. But when I'm away for a long time I will put something there so she doesn't die of dehydration.

 

[Tom]

The behavioral traits you discuss are not indicators of CB or WC. I've seen dog tame WCs and I've seen very shy CBs. This is more of an individual tortoise personality thing, coupled with what experiences they have had interacting with humans in their life time. I have 20 russians right now. They are 3 years old and I raised them all from CB hatchlings. They are all marked with color dots, so I can easily tell them apart. Some dig very well and frequently, while others never dig at all. Some climb everything they can find, others stay firmly on the ground. Some run away at the sight of me, some are indifferent to my presence, and others run toward me to beg for food. Some let me pet their heads or legs, some withdraw at my touch.

Some of them initially freaked out about soaking and some don't care from day one. All of them relaxed about the soaking within a few days of me doing it daily when they were babies.

Most pet stores claim CB, when in fact they are really WC. There are very rarely adult CB russians for sale in a pet shop. It takes years for them to reach adult size, so where would the pet store get a steady supply of 5-10 year old tortoises to sell? What would it cost for someone to raise a tortoise for 10 years and then sell it to a pet shop at a wholesale price?

What you are seeing with your tortoises is more likely due to individual personality differences, than to WC or CB.

 

[KatyshaB]

Thank you, one thing though, they only had two torts where I got Natalie. Two torts in the whole store, so she COULD be captive bred but I think not, thank you for helping me, I love my pair with all my heart shy or not, WC or CB.

 

[Tom]

...so she COULD be captive bred but I think not

I agree. It is possible. Someone could have raised her from a CB baby for years and then needed to part with her for some reason and sold her or given her to the pet shop. It does happen. I'd estimate that for every time something like that happens, there are at least 100 times when its a WC, if not 1000.

I'm glad you love them either way.

 

[ascott]

About a month ago, I got a female Russian Tort named Natalie. I got her for breeding purposes, but when I got her she was REALLY tame, she would hang her head out and let you pet it when you picked her up. She is 7 in long, and I believe she is captive bred, they said at the store where I got her that almost all of there animals are captive bred. Now, moving on to my male tort, Bosley. I've had him for four years, he is very shy and I do think he is wild caught because for one, we WILL NOT let you touch his head. And he was a lot more stressed when we first got him. (He is fine now, we took care to make sure he was healthy), now before I begin to ask my question let me tell you I'm not asking the question: "Witch one is better, wild caught or captive bred". I would prefer a captive bred tort (If I knew Bosley was wild caught I wouldn't have gotten him) because of the way they treat wild caught ones in shipping. Anyway, one day I came home and Natalie was upside down pressed against the wall (I will try to post a picture) after taking a picture I quickly flipped her back and wondered what happened. I think Natalie was climbing her log when she flipped and tumbled backwards. Thankfully she was not upside-down long because she hadn't started struggling when I first saw her. Now, Bosley has climbed up onto his log many times and never fallen. He also likes to dig more than Natalie does. So does Bosley have more of an instinct to climb and dig, then Natalie. Because wouldn't Natalie still have the instinct to climb, captive bred or not?

Even the most skilled of us at the task of walking or climbing will stumble and find ourselves bottom up....luckily for us we are bendy. Some torts are dare devils, others adventurous and some just a clutz and are darn lucky they are in a captive environment and not in the wild...lol...

 

[biochemnerd808]

Good answers above already! I think it would be pretty easy to tell whether she is CB or WC by simply looking at pics of her... CB tortoises are pretty easy to pick out! Do you have some good pics to post of her?

 

[KatyshaB]

I'll try.. I'm on a Mac computer and I have good pics with my phone.. But I don't know how to download them on my phone. I'll see if I can figure it out.

 

[Tom]

I'll try.. I'm on a Mac computer and I have good pics with my phone.. But I don't know how to download them on my phone. I'll see if I can figure it out.

I email them to myself. Reduces their size at the same time.

 

[KatyshaB]

Ok so here are my pics ~Warning, I'm not good with photos~ This is Natalie.

 

[KatyshaB]

The one with two of them is pics of both my torts. Natalie is on the right. Followed by Bosley, on the left.

 

[biochemnerd808]

Looking at their shells, they are almost certainly both wild caught. glad they are both healthy, and they look beautiful!

The one with two of them is pics of both my torts. Natalie is on the right. Followed by Bosley, on the left.

 

[KatyshaB]

Looking at their shells, they are almost certainly both wild caught. glad they are both healthy, and they look beautiful!

thank you, out of curiosity. How can you tell? There shells are very different.

 

[biochemnerd808]

Good question. Yes, the coloring of their shells is different from each other, but wild caught tortoises have a few very distinctive markers:
- regular ridges; a result of seasons changing each year, with brumation in winter, steady food and growth in Spring, aestivation in Summer, followed by more food and growth in the Fall. There is a more regular food supply in captivity, so those ridges don't happen.
- slower growth, since tortoises in the wild don't have as much access to food as they do in captivity. The shell hardens well before the next growth, so the shell of a WC tortoise doesn't have the same "waxy" appearance as a CB one often does
- more wear and tear from clonking around a rocky terrain
- the shells of a WC tortoise have clearly been exposed to vastly more UV light from natural sunshine.
- smooth growth, overall. WC RTs generally show zero pyramiding. CB ones are showing less, now that folks are finally figuring out proper humidity in early years, and other factors that contribute to healthy shell growth... but the CB Russian torts of this size and age were still from the "dry baby" era, and usually have a somewhat "quilted" appearance.

 

[KatyshaB]

Good question. Yes, the coloring of their shells is different from each other, but wild caught tortoises have a few very distinctive markers:
- regular ridges; a result of seasons changing each year, with brumation in winter, steady food and growth in Spring, aestivation in Summer, followed by more food and growth in the Fall. There is a more regular food supply in captivity, so those ridges don't happen.
- slower growth, since tortoises in the wild don't have as much access to food as they do in captivity. The shell hardens well before the next growth, so the shell of a WC tortoise doesn't have the same "waxy" appearance as a CB one often does
- more wear and tear from clonking around a rocky terrain
- the shells of a WC tortoise have clearly been exposed to vastly more UV light from natural sunshine.
- smooth growth, overall. WC RTs generally show zero pyramiding. CB ones are showing less, now that folks are finally figuring out proper humidity in early years, and other factors that contribute to healthy shell growth... but the CB Russian torts of this size and age were still from the "dry baby" era, and usually have a somewhat "quilted" appearance.

Cool! I didn't know that. I don't like WC tortoises. Now, I have captured many reptilian of Utah over the last few years and some I have kept forever. I have no problem with that, because we are careful to not take any endangered species. And we treat them the best we can. BUT when they take WC torts out of the wild. They are almost whipping out there natural range. Also they treat the torts VERY poorly, they are all put into boxes where they are literally climbing on top of each other! I have 0 problem with taking animals out of there natural habitat. As long as you are RESPECTFUL of the animal. These people clearly are not. Oh well, if I had known that I would have bought another one. But I'm NOT giving my beautiful torts up now. NO WAY