Blake’s exotic animal ranch, blue tort?

[Emily Contreras]

Evolution happens via mutations ... mistakes are a part of nature, and as long as this wee-beast isn't suffering, I think:

1. it's got a right to live
2. there's something to be learned from studying and recording its life
3. it might grow to contribute to a new line/sub-species/species of tortoise

As regards suggestions an email blitz or spamming the breeder, because he appears not to do things as people in this forum think are best, please consider:

• until very recently, everyone thought differently about raising tortoises, many still do, many of whom have been raising torts for decades
• I'm stubborn enough to dig in and act the opposite when faced with an angry mob bugging me while I'm sharing something cool
• internet mobs tend to be as smart as their least intelligent member

Just my thoughts and opinions, your mileage may vary.

Jamie

I agree. And when I wrote to spam him I was kinda outraged by the fact that he knew he was doing wrong but he still did it.
Still, the little one, avatar, will most likely die. I really think that he just looks.. wrong. something about the way he walks kind of gives me "unnatural" vibes. I also believe that if it isn't suffering that it should not be euthinized. I dont really know though, it might have a chance in correct care. But something tells me if he continues to care for it in that manner, it will die. no questions asked.

 

[Emily Contreras]

I understand that his methods and husbandry upsets you as I'm sure it does everyone else. However, getting angry at someone for doing what they have known to do for many many years is a pointless endeavour. I mean that's like me getting upset at every breeder and zoo around. And I completely agree that spamming him and so one will only push him away from any new approach. You can't just go up to a teacher who has been teaching for ten years and get all pissy with them because they aren't teaching the new way or the way that you know is better. Maybe they don't know another way. You have to give people a chance. And getting angry at someone for doing things different is just silly and a waste of time. If you want a child to learn a certain behavior you have to teach it and you also have to show the benefit of the behavior you wnt them to learn. Just stating this from a behavioral stand point.

I get it. I was really mad. Thats why I wrote that. I just really was upset because he is willingly keeping this animal in wrong conditions.

 

[Stuart S.]

I think it should be separated and watched closely. Who knows, it could live a long healthy life. No one can say that’s unlikely, because this seems to be pretty unheard of. In the flip side of that, it could do the opposite, the animal definitely shouldn’t suffer but it deserves a shot at least; under proper and diligent care.

 

[drew54]

I get it. I was really mad. Thats why I wrote that. I just really was upset because he is willingly keeping this animal in wrong conditions.

Yeah it's frustrating and not right, but that's what makes is educators is the fact that we can rise above the anger and help the person understand a better way. That's not to say that they will listen most people doing it as long as he has find it to be the optimal care as they were taught.

I spoke to a dry breeder and he was pretty knowledgeable, but mostly he just repeated a bunch of the same stuff that was I the care sheet that he gives people from a breeder in Arizona. He stated that doing the closed chamber method killed one of his torts. He further explained that two of his torts one in closed chamber and inner in open table both had same symptoms. He blamed the humidity for killing his tortoise in the closed chamber's I tried to explain to him that both his torts one sulcata and one leopard both had RIs due to cold temps with high humidity. He he contested his temps and everything were accurate and his torts never have pyramiding his way.

They all had the start of pyramiding. None of them looked dehydrated though. But that doesn't mean anything either. Nyx was big and weighed 89g 3in scl.
She is active, alert, and eats a lot of food. So, I'm hoping she thrives.

I guess the point in that is if they are reluctant to take any criticism over their set up and current care then at least look at other things, such as their success rates with hatchlings. He immediate showed me photos his customers had sent to him several years layer of their tortoise in good health however heavily pyramiding. But this was some proof that his dry started beefed up babies make it most of the time. I'm not an expert, but I try to learn from them and follow their advice closely as this is what I know to be right.
Others will disagree and raise healthy babies their way. I do agree what Tyler said that there are other ways to raise hatchlings other than Toms way. However, so I agree with all of his methods, absolutely not. Howeverxi do know he does produce healthy and beautiful hatchlings. That's what I find that's important.

 

[wellington]

Anyone saying humidity kills is because they aren't doing it right. A lot of breeders that produce more for business then hobby will not do a closed chamber cuz they don't see it as cost effective. They want too spend as little as possible. Their hope is the tort will be sold before any pyramiding starts or they just don't care about pyramiding as it's been excepted for so long as the norm. When a tortoise being raised in humid Florida can still pyramid without added high humidity then yo know a tortoise in AZ will for sure pyramid without a lot of added humidity.
However, even the highest of humidity won't help if your using a mercury vapor bulb in my opinion. My hatchling raised in closed chamber from day one, I hatched it, high humidity, swampy at times. Still pyramided. Mvb used, ugh.

 

[drew54]

Anyone saying humidity kills is because they aren't doing it right. A lot of breeders that produce more for business then hobby will not do a closed chamber cuz they don't see it as cost effective. They want too spend as little as possible. Their hope is the tort will be sold before any pyramiding starts or they just don't care about pyramiding as it's been excepted for so long as the norm. When a tortoise being raised in humid Florida can still pyramid without added high humidity then yo know a tortoise in AZ will for sure pyramid without a lot of added humidity.
However, even the highest of humidity won't help if your using a mercury vapor bulb in my opinion. My hatchling raised in closed chamber from day one, I hatched it, high humidity, swampy at times. Still pyramided. Mvb used, ugh.

I completely agree. With that breeder I tried to explain why his hatchlings died do too low temps and getting Ri. He refused that answer. I looked at his stick in thermometer and the temp in his table was around 75-78. I doubt he actually checked his temps. He seemed like the "show and tell" type. He raises them on straight mazuri and romaine to beef them up so they will sell faster. He stated that he does it because he wants then used to mazuri for when they get older he will feed them other greens. I just know I wanted to buy his whole clutch and the parents so he couldn't breed anymore.

 

[Brent morreale]

Has anyone here seen the blue tortoise hatchling video on youtube ? i

 

[Brent morreale]

Hopefully this guy takes proper care for this little guy so he makes it. that set up did not look good enough.

 

[T Smart]

Hopefully this guy takes proper care for this little guy so he makes it. that set up did not look good enough.

Check out this thread!

Blake’s exotic animal ranch, blue tort?

https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Blake’s-exotic-animal-ranch,-blue-tort?.170556/

Best,

Thomas

 

[Yvonne G]

It looks like it has hatched out without the top layer of skin/scales and keratin on the shell. Seems like it will be vulnerable to infection.

 

[Brent morreale]

Check out this thread!

Blake’s exotic animal ranch, blue tort?

https://tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Blake’s-exotic-animal-ranch,-blue-tort?.170556/

Best,

Thomas

Thank you i should have known someone here would have seen it already

 

[Yvonne G]

Thank you i should have known someone here would have seen it already

You have to get up pretty early in the a.m. to beat some of our members!

 

[Brent morreale]

You have to get up pretty early in the a.m. to beat some of our members!

lol Note taken

 

[Emily Contreras]

It looks like it has hatched out without the top layer of skin/scales and keratin on the shell. Seems like it will be vulnerable to infection.

Yeah! Thats what I thought too, it doesn't even look like it has scutes.

 

[Timozss]

Felt I had to say this ...evolution is what this planet is about ...allwayz has been ...Blake did not get all Jurassic park and mess with the genetics of this tortoise...once again this is evolution..YOU would not be here without it ...

 

[StephandTay]

Well I mentioned this thread on his FB page in hopes he can get some more education and care more about the torts he is raising and selling instead of just looking at them as a profit margin. Poor little guy here needs to be separated and given a lot of TLC to survive hopefully we can follow his quality of life on videos this guy posts on his page. Either way I wish he would not look at it like he just bred something unusual and once in a life time.... sadness

 

[drew54]

I wouldn't call it evolution as much as it is a genetic defect. I understand evolution, but I highly doubt this is evolution. Evolution involves slow genetic change over multiple generations advancing the species to better cope with their environment. Rapid genetic change is a genetic defect. I don't see really any advantage of this poor torts condition.

 

[wellington]

Felt I had to say this ...evolution is what this planet is about ...allwayz has been ...Blake did not get all Jurassic park and mess with the genetics of this tortoise...once again this is evolution..YOU would not be here without it ...

No this is just a mix of genetics that went wrong and underdeveloped. Has nothing to do with evolution. I don't think anyone thinks he did this on purpose either.
The problem is he is not caring for it properly. There is in your face bullying going on, low humidity and crowded conditions and he is not doing anything about it even though he seems to know it's all there.
Blue/purple skinned tortoises is not new with this tortoise. There has been a few RF hatched by one of our members and they were normal, no deformities.

 

[DesertGirl]

This is the video I am also very lost!!

I’m sorry, but this is just a deformed baby. He’s aware enough of the other two larger ones to be very timid about even moving towards to food. Poor little fellow. If he’s so RARE, why isn’t he being coddled in his own tank rather than being left to fend for himself? So so sad.

 

[Joma]

I see where you are coming from and I get the idea of relief from pain or suffering. These are the arguments used for people with the idea - we have a right for choosing our own end of life in the case that no medical intervention will make us better.

For personal pets I have had to make this choice as well, and it is very fraught with emotions. I had one cat poisoned with chocolate and his kidney failure was terminal, keeping him alive was more about me not wanting to accept the path the vet recommended (euthanasia), than a relief from his own suffering for his own sake. He had become a mess. My current cat has had the price of new small car invested in his health as each time to potential outcome was good, and so far that has indeed been the case.

About this blue tortoise. I see too many mutations used to hype the idea of rare and exotic at the expense of the animal's well being, like all the short pallet dogs that can asphyxiate at high altitude or on a plane. There are now 'designer' ball pythons and maybe other snakes that all have some disorder (I don't recall) and what I see if this tortoise being used for that, and being bred into ever greater numbers (if it survives).

I'm somewhere between a 'farmer' mentality, a conservationist, and species purist. Under all these hats that blue tortoise is an abomination. It ends up being a curiosity or amusement, like a person making a living being a circus freak, bearded woman, etc. Like I said, I can hold disperate POV at one time.

So now we are wayyyyyyy off topic, I suppose. Glad that so far our mods have not shut this thread down.

Yes. When we are being honest with ourselves and we are putting aside ego related concerns (such a fame, Utube Iikes etc ) euthanasia is generally universally reserved for "pain, suffering and quality of life" concerns. The challenge is that, outside of competent humans deciding for themselves within a human constructed system, we are always deciding for another being with whom we cannot fully communicate.

This topic is not way off. Most of us will out live our charges whether they are tortoises/turtles or other non-human beings. I have outlived several charges as I am involved in transporting dogs from high intake shelters to shelters that can find them homes and, as a result, I have had to make these decisions for another. What are our indicators of suffering? This is a very pertinent ethical question.