Bentley 3M Substrate Death

[Kaydestort]

(Warning Graphic Tortise Content)
My 3M Desert Tort Bentley, died from eating his substrate. I have yet to come across posts or content, warning people with the negative side effects and danger, of keeping babies on wood chip or any substrate.
He hate so much of it, his stomach and intestine blew up, he prolapsed from straining and died at the vets office. If I would have known these little guys should only be on news paper and absolutely can not digest the substrate material… inevitably I would have done things differently. I lost the sweetest most loving little boy to a terrible choice. I just want to warn people out there who might not known or had someone tell them that bark chips and rocks are not digestible for them and there are side effects and consiquences. Anyone with advice or has struggled with the same loss, please shed some light on this absolutey painful experience. RIP beloved baby, who loved to be sang to, loved being held and loved his food. Desert Tortise. Born Oct 16,2023Little pebbles, small rocks, it’s just not worth it.

 

[Tim Carlisle]

May I share your experience? So sorry about Bentley

 

[Kaydestort]

May I share your experience? So sorry about Bentley Please!! For Bentley.

May I share your experience? So sorry about Bentley

Please!! Please. For Bentley.

 

[zovick]

(Warning Graphic Tortise Content)
My 3M Desert Tort Bentley, died from eating his substrate. I have yet to come across posts or content, warning people with the negative side effects and danger, of keeping babies on wood chip or any substrate.
He hate so much of it, his stomach and intestine blew up, he prolapsed from straining and died at the vets office. If I would have known these little guys should only be on news paper and absolutely can not digest the substrate material… inevitably I would have done things differently. I lost the sweetest most loving little boy to a terrible choice. I just want to warn people out there who might not known or had someone tell them that bark chips and rocks are not digestible for them and there are side effects and consiquences. Anyone with advice or has struggled with the same loss, please shed some light on this absolutey painful experience. RIP beloved baby, who loved to be sang to, loved being held and loved his food. Desert Tortise. Born Oct 16,2023View attachment 366012Little pebbles, small rocks, it’s just not worth it.

Very sad.

It would be very helpful to others if you could post a photo or two of the wood chips and/or pebbles which your tortoise ate.

I lost a beautiful female Star Tortoise in a similar way years ago. I had thought it would be good to keep my Star Tortoises on Aspen shavings both because of the ease of cleaning the enclosure plus the nice contrast with their shell colors, and for some reason she ate the Aspen shavings to the exclusion of everything else. Her stomach and intestines were filled with nothing but Aspen shavings when she died. Strangely, I never once saw her or any of the other tortoises eating the shavings, but obviously it had happened.

 

[wellington]

We use and recommend substrate always not paper towels.
Could you tell us what the exact substrate was?
What did you house him in?
What was his diet? How often and how much did you feed?
What were the temps. Basking? All over? Night?
How often did you soak? Did he have a low sided water bowl at all times?
So much more experience on here, that has always used coconut coir, orchid bark or fir bark without incident. I'm thinking, wondering if there was something else that caused him to eat so much.

 

[Kaydestort]

We use and recommend substrate always not paper towels.
Could you tell us what the exact substrate was?
What did you house him in?
What was his diet? How often and how much did you feed?
What were the temps. Basking? All over? Night?
How often did you soak? Did he have a low sided water bowl at all times?
So much more experience on here, that has always used coconut coir, orchid bark or fir bark without incident. I'm thinking, wondering if there was something else that caused him to eat so much.

Basking temp: 89-100 w. Temp Switch to turn off if it got too hot.
UVB lighting
Food: Cabbage, Carrot zest, Hibiscus flower,
DL greens, calcium (No D) every day.
He would soak himself daily in his bath and I would soak him once a day.
This was his routine.

 

[Kaydestort]

Very sad.

It would be very helpful to others if you could post a photo or two of the wood chips and/or pebbles which your tortoise ate.

I lost a beautiful female Star Tortoise in a similar way years ago. I had thought it would be good to keep my Star Tortoises on Aspen shavings both because of the ease of cleaning the enclosure plus the nice contrast with their shell colors, and for some reason she ate the Aspen shavings to the exclusion of everything else. Her stomach and intestines were filled with nothing but Aspen shavings when she died. Strangely, I never once saw her or any of the other tortoises eating the shavings, but obviously it had happened.

 

[Kaydestort]

I am so sorry to hear about your star. That’s crazy the same situation is happening to me. I have another baby and he doesn’t eat the substrate. I took him to the vet and his X-rays didn’t show any signs of inflation.

Basking temp: 89-100 w. Temp Switch to turn off if it got too hot.
UVB lighting
Food: Cabbage, Carrot zest, Hibiscus flower,
DL greens, calcium (No D) every day.
He would soak himself daily in his bath and I would soak him once a day.
This was his routine.

 

[Yvonne G]

(Warning Graphic Tortise Content)
My 3M Desert Tort Bentley, died from eating his substrate. I have yet to come across posts or content, warning people with the negative side effects and danger, of keeping babies on wood chip or any substrate.
He hate so much of it, his stomach and intestine blew up, he prolapsed from straining and died at the vets office. If I would have known these little guys should only be on news paper and absolutely can not digest the substrate material… inevitably I would have done things differently. I lost the sweetest most loving little boy to a terrible choice. I just want to warn people out there who might not known or had someone tell them that bark chips and rocks are not digestible for them and there are side effects and consiquences. Anyone with advice or has struggled with the same loss, please shed some light on this absolutey painful experience. RIP beloved baby, who loved to be sang to, loved being held and loved his food. Desert Tortise. Born Oct 16,2023View attachment 366012Little pebbles, small rocks, it’s just not worth it.

I'm so sorry to hear this. Pretty little tortoise! But what you've said is not right. Quite a few of us here on the Forum use bark as substrate. Fir bark is perfectly fine to use. However, if you see your tortoise eating his substrate, no matter what kind it is, that means he's missing something in his diet. How we make sure to give them the required vitamins and minerals is to add a supplement to the diet. I like to use Miner-All (manufactured by Sticky Tongue Farms). It provides the calcium and minerals they think they're getting when they eat the substrate.

 

[zovick]

I am so sorry to hear about your star. That’s crazy the same situation is happening to me. I have another baby and he doesn’t eat the substrate. I took him to the vet and his X-rays didn’t show any signs of inflation.

View attachment 366016

That Cypress Mulch should be OK to use IMHO. After Eucalypus Mulch became impossible for me to get any longer, I used Cypress Mulch for all my tortoises (literally hundreds of them) for 20 years or more and none of them ever had a problem. I never saw one eating it, either, but as we have both learned the hard way, that doesn't mean they aren't eating their substrate somehow.

I personally think that a tortoise would be just as likely to eat its orchid/fir bark substrate as to eat Cypress Mulch, though some members would probably disagree with that opinion.

You could try switching over to the coco coir. Those particles are small enough to pass through the gut without causing a blockage if they do get ingested.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I'm so sorry to hear this. Pretty little tortoise! But what you've said is not right. Quite a few of us here on the Forum use bark as substrate. Fir bark is perfectly fine to use. However, if you see your tortoise eating his substrate, no matter what kind it is, that means he's missing something in his diet. How we make sure to give them the required vitamins and minerals is to add a supplement to the diet. I like to use Miner-All (manufactured by Sticky Tongue Farms). It provides the calcium and minerals they think they're getting when they eat the substrate.

There are several reasons for a tortoise to eat rocks. Lack of nutrition is highest on the list.
Substrate eating can be lack of nutrition or the use of RED light bulbs that make the substrate look like food. Etc.
I've kept my tortoises on wood chips and pebbles and rocks in my yard now for decades and I've never had a single issue.
I'm sorry that this happened

 

[wellington]

This tortoise was not fed a good proper diet which may have led it too eating the substrate.
Keeping tortoises on paper towels is not the answer.
Before getting another tortoise, do more research on this forum for care and diet.
Basking lights should not be turned off except at night. If it gets too hot then you need a smaller watt bulb or raise the fixture. They can't digest their food without a proper basking area and things inside also doesn't move properly.

 

[Tom]

(Warning Graphic Tortise Content)
My 3M Desert Tort Bentley, died from eating his substrate. I have yet to come across posts or content, warning people with the negative side effects and danger, of keeping babies on wood chip or any substrate.
He hate so much of it, his stomach and intestine blew up, he prolapsed from straining and died at the vets office. If I would have known these little guys should only be on news paper and absolutely can not digest the substrate material… inevitably I would have done things differently. I lost the sweetest most loving little boy to a terrible choice. I just want to warn people out there who might not known or had someone tell them that bark chips and rocks are not digestible for them and there are side effects and consiquences. Anyone with advice or has struggled with the same loss, please shed some light on this absolutey painful experience. RIP beloved baby, who loved to be sang to, loved being held and loved his food. Desert Tortise. Born Oct 16,2023View attachment 366012Little pebbles, small rocks, it’s just not worth it.

I am sorry for your loss, but you are jumping to incorrect conclusions about why it happened. It is unhealthy for any baby tortoise to be housed on newspaper or paper towels and your vet is wrong, as they usually are about tortoise care. Vets learn about tortoise care from the same wrong sources that everyone else learns from. Babies NEED to be on substrate like what you were using, or orchid bark, or coco coir, and it does NOT kill them. I literally have raised dozens of DT babies on these substrates, and @Yvonne G and @Maggie3fan , among other members have probably raised 100s of them this way. I have also raised literally over 1000 sulcata, star, leopard, pancake, Russian, and other species babies in these three types of substrate. It wasn't the substrate that killed your baby. If you were to raise a DT on paper or any other dry substrate, terrible pyramiding will occur and death by dehydration, or dehydration related complications, like bladder stones, is likely. Dehydration, due to the typical bad care advice, is the number one killer of baby DTs in my experience. Mauling by the family dog being a close second.

There are three primary reasons why a tortoise will eat its substrate like that:
1. Incorrect diet.
2. Sickness.
3. Incorrect lighting.

1. "Food: Cabbage, Carrot zest, Hibiscus flower, DL greens, calcium (No D) every day."
These are not good tortoise foods. Cabbage isn't toxic, but it is full of goiterogens and if fed at all, should be fed sparingly, in small amounts, mixed with other foods. What is "Carrot zest"? Carrots are too high in sugars and should not be fed to babies at all, and sparingly in small amounts, mixed with other foods for adults. What are "DL greens"? An occasional hibiscus flower is okay, but that should be a very small part of the diet. Calcium for an indoor baby should have D3 in it.

What your tortoise should have been eating is a plethora of weeds, leaves and freshly sprouted grasses. Opuntia cactus pads should be an essential part of the diet for any species that eats these in the wild, like DTs. In your climate weeds are available year round, and mulberry or grape leaves are seasonal. There are dozens of great weed species around you right now. Mallow, sow thistle, dandelion, plantain weeds, clover, etc... You can grow your own opuntia or buy it at any Mexican grocery store like Vallarta or Tres Sierras. If grocery store foods must be used, you should have been favoring curly endive, escarole, dandelion greens, arugula, and any of the lettuces. Lettuce alone is not good, but lettuce can be used as a great delivery vehicle for good stuff that you mix in. Soaked horse hay pellets or ZooMed Grassland tortoise food are great ways to add fiber and variety to grocery store greens. Kapidolofarms.com sells all sorts of fantastic dried leaf options to mix in. Herbal Hay from tortoisesupply.com, or Flower Topper from ZooMed are great too. Some occasional kale, collards, mustard greens, turnip greens or radicchio are fine for variety too.

When a tortoise is fed the incorrect foods, like what you were offering, it leads to this rock or substrate eating. Grocery store foods, and especially the cabbages, lack the fiber needed, have low calcium, have incorrect calcium to phosphorous ratios, and many have deleterious compounds like the previously mentioned goiterogens. You got and followed bad care info from a vet or from the internet. Most of the sources for DT care info are terribly wrong.

2. Some tortoises diseases cause this sort of substrate eating. I saw it once with some sick ivory sulcata babies that I bought back in 2011. These babies came in with what I now believe to be Austwikia, but was diagnosed at the time as cryptosporidium. Whatever they had, some of them would sit there and eat their substrate. Meanwhile, the sulcata babies that I had recently hatched were in an identical enclosure, in the same room, on identical substrate from the same bag, and cared for exactly the same in every way. There were several dozen of them and not a one of them ate the substrate.

There are a lot of tortoise diseases circulating around right now. It is terrifying. It is possible that your baby somehow contracted one of them.

3. What type of UV bulb were you using? What distance above the tortoise? Some of them burn tortoises eyes, and the result can be eating the substrate. Some UV bulbs make WAY too much UV, while others make none at all. Lack of UV can cause lack of D3, which in turn causes calcium deficiency. Having D3 your calcium supplement might have helped compensate for this.

Some people still use colored bulbs like "infrared", or red or blue bulbs. These colored bulbs will sometimes make the poor little guys decide to eat inappropriate things, like substrate.

Heat lamps should not be set on a thermostat that turns them on and off all day. The "sun" shouldn't be going on and off like that. If your basking area directly under the bulb is getting over 100 degrees, then raise the bulb up a little higher, or use a lower wattage.

What I hope you take away from this is the understanding that the substrate did not kill your baby. If it did, we all would have seen it here too. What killed your baby was one of these commonly seen underlying problems that I have described here, or possibly something else. Sadly, your baby would have died even if it was on newspaper. I can't use paper towels in my brooder boxes for hatchlings because they will eat them after day one or two. You tortoise might have impacted on paper if you had housed it that way and it would have been terribly dehydrated too.

Here is the correct care info and another thread with a bunch of general info explaining why there is so much contradictory and wrong info out in the world. I hope you will try again, and I hope you will let us help you do it better this time.

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

P.S. What is a 3M desert tortoise? Does that mean it was 3 months old?

 

[zovick]

I am sorry for your loss, but you are jumping to incorrect conclusions about why it happened. It is unhealthy for any baby tortoise to be housed on newspaper or paper towels and your vet is wrong, as they usually are about tortoise care. Vets learn about tortoise care from the same wrong sources that everyone else learns from. Babies NEED to be on substrate like what you were using, or orchid bark, or coco coir, and it does NOT kill them. I literally have raised dozens of DT babies on these substrates, and @Yvonne G and @Maggie3fan , among other members have probably raised 100s of them this way. I have also raised literally over 1000 sulcata, star, leopard, pancake, Russian, and other species babies in these three types of substrate. It wasn't the substrate that killed your baby. If you were to raise a DT on paper or any other dry substrate, terrible pyramiding will occur and death by dehydration, or dehydration related complications, like bladder stones, is likely. Dehydration, due to the typical bad care advice, is the number one killer of baby DTs in my experience. Mauling by the family dog being a close second.

There are three primary reasons why a tortoise will eat its substrate like that:
1. Incorrect diet.
2. Sickness.
3. Incorrect lighting.

1. "Food: Cabbage, Carrot zest, Hibiscus flower, DL greens, calcium (No D) every day."
These are not good tortoise foods. Cabbage isn't toxic, but it is full of goiterogens and if fed at all, should be fed sparingly, in small amounts, mixed with other foods. What is "Carrot zest"? Carrots are too high in sugars and should not be fed to babies at all, and sparingly in small amounts, mixed with other foods for adults. What are "DL greens"? An occasional hibiscus flower is okay, but that should be a very small part of the diet. Calcium for an indoor baby should have D3 in it.

What your tortoise should have been eating is a plethora of weeds, leaves and freshly sprouted grasses. Opuntia cactus pads should be an essential part of the diet for any species that eats these in the wild, like DTs. In your climate weeds are available year round, and mulberry or grape leaves are seasonal. There are dozens of great weed species around you right now. Mallow, sow thistle, dandelion, plantain weeds, clover, etc... You can grow your own opuntia or buy it at any Mexican grocery store like Vallarta or Tres Sierras. If grocery store foods must be used, you should have been favoring curly endive, escarole, dandelion greens, arugula, and any of the lettuces. Lettuce alone is not good, but lettuce can be used as a great delivery vehicle for good stuff that you mix in. Soaked horse hay pellets or ZooMed Grassland tortoise food are great ways to add fiber and variety to grocery store greens. Kapidolofarms.com sells all sorts of fantastic dried leaf options to mix in. Herbal Hay from tortoisesupply.com, or Flower Topper from ZooMed are great too. Some occasional kale, collards, mustard greens, turnip greens or radicchio are fine for variety too.

When a tortoise is fed the incorrect foods, like what you were offering, it leads to this rock or substrate eating. Grocery store foods, and especially the cabbages, lack the fiber needed, have low calcium, have incorrect calcium to phosphorous ratios, and many have deleterious compounds like the previously mentioned goiterogens. You got and followed bad care info from a vet or from the internet. Most of the sources for DT care info are terribly wrong.

2. Some tortoises diseases cause this sort of substrate eating. I saw it once with some sick ivory sulcata babies that I bought back in 2011. These babies came in with what I now believe to be Austwikia, but was diagnosed at the time as cryptosporidium. Whatever they had, some of them would sit there and eat their substrate. Meanwhile, the sulcata babies that I had recently hatched were in an identical enclosure, in the same room, on identical substrate from the same bag, and cared for exactly the same in every way. There were several dozen of them and not a one of them ate the substrate.

There are a lot of tortoise diseases circulating around right now. It is terrifying. It is possible that your baby somehow contracted one of them.

3. What type of UV bulb were you using? What distance above the tortoise? Some of them burn tortoises eyes, and the result can be eating the substrate. Some UV bulbs make WAY too much UV, while others make none at all. Lack of UV can cause lack of D3, which in turn causes calcium deficiency. Having D3 your calcium supplement might have helped compensate for this.

Some people still use colored bulbs like "infrared", or red or blue bulbs. These colored bulbs will sometimes make the poor little guys decide to eat inappropriate things, like substrate.

Heat lamps should not be set on a thermostat that turns them on and off all day. The "sun" shouldn't be going on and off like that. If your basking area directly under the bulb is getting over 100 degrees, then raise the bulb up a little higher, or use a lower wattage.

What I hope you take away from this is the understanding that the substrate did not kill your baby. If it did, we all would have seen it here too. What killed your baby was one of these commonly seen underlying problems that I have described here, or possibly something else. Sadly, your baby would have died even if it was on newspaper. I can't use paper towels in my brooder boxes for hatchlings because they will eat them after day one or two. You tortoise might have impacted on paper if you had housed it that way and it would have been terribly dehydrated too.

Here is the correct care info and another thread with a bunch of general info explaining why there is so much contradictory and wrong info out in the world. I hope you will try again, and I hope you will let us help you do it better this time.

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

P.S. What is a 3M desert tortoise? Does that mean it was 3 months old?

Yes, I think it means 3 months old. The first post says it was hatched on October 16th.