Bell's Hingeback and Testudine Intranuclear Coccidiosis - A Case-study by Aaron Johnson

[2turtletom]

Aaron Johnson wasn't able to attend TTPG in person but he put together a succinct presentation detailing his efforts to manage a population of Kenyan-exported Kinixys belliana infected with TINC. It's an amazing, must-see TV for all tortoise owners, not just those that are Kinixys nuts like me!

 

[wellington]

I know absolutely nothing about any of the types of hinge backs. This is very interesting. However, he's only been into the hinge since 2022 and he keeps them in pairs. He doesn't seem to know that the mvb shouldn't be used which causes pyramiding but that a basking spot in most species is needed and can be done safely with the incandescents. Unless I misunderstood his stating year, I'm not sure I'd put much into how he keeps them.
The disease, a different story seeing he's lost many to it and learned the hard way about quarantine.

 

[2turtletom]

I know absolutely nothing about any of the types of hinge backs. This is very interesting. However, he's only been into the hinge since 2022 and he keeps them in pairs. He doesn't seem to know that the mvb shouldn't be used which causes pyramiding but that a basking spot in most species is needed and can be done safely with the incandescents. Unless I misunderstood his stating year, I'm not sure I'd put much into how he keeps them.
The disease, a different story seeing he's lost many to it and learned the hard way about quarantine.

If those are truly your takeaways from watching this video, I apologize for taking up your time.

 

[wellington]

If those are truly your takeaways from watching this video, I apologize for taking up your time.

Like I said, I know nothing about them. The majority of the video was interesting as I said and not that I will remember the differences, of the different ones it was nice seeing them. But if tortoises are housed under constant stress, which being housed in pairs can do, I wonder if he didn't contribute to the deaths or the infections from this way of housing. Not on purpose of course, but by lack of knowledge. Same with the basking area. Certain temp needs to be reach for proper digestion in most species. Maybe not this species, but I have no idea. I only know the RF that don't really bask like most others. We hardly see them on this forum. If I heard and understood correctly, he's only been in tortoises since 2022. He still has a lot to learn. If it's only been this species since 2022, then he might still have a lot to learn, unless this species actually can live in pairs, which I doubt.
Stress is a killer in all worlds of living things. A long with the things mentioned to not spread the disease, etc, he needs to learn to not house them under stress.

 

[turtlesteve]

@wellington you are way off base here. Aaron is doing better than anyone else in the US with this species - and has multiple clutches of eggs to show for it. He’s got at least a couple decades of experience with tortoises and is one of only a handful of successful Chaco tortoise breeders. He has practiced good quarantine for about as long as it’s been promoted on this forum, and from day 1 with this species. The disease exposure occurred before he had these animals unfortunately.

 

[2turtletom]

@wellington you are way off base here. Aaron is doing better than anyone else in the US with this species - and has multiple clutches of eggs to show for it. He’s got at least a couple decades of experience with tortoises and is one of only a handful of successful Chaco tortoise breeders. He has practiced good quarantine for about as long as it’s been promoted on this forum, and from day 1 with this species. The disease exposure occurred before he had these animals unfortunately.

I suppose we all have our bad days Steve! I thought that video would stand on its own merits, and I certainly didn't think others would have to defend it, but perhaps TFO has become more of a bastion of "Groupthink" than I realized.

 

[wellington]

@wellington you are way off base here. Aaron is doing better than anyone else in the US with this species - and has multiple clutches of eggs to show for it. He’s got at least a couple decades of experience with tortoises and is one of only a handful of successful Chaco tortoise breeders. He has practiced good quarantine for about as long as it’s been promoted on this forum, and from day 1 with this species. The disease exposure occurred before he had these animals unfortunately.

I may be way off, don't disagree with that. I have no knowledge of him or this species like I said. There is barely any info on here about them or owners of them. I don't believe I said anything about the quarantine or being an issue. It's the stress of pairs that I feel could contribute to the issues he has had. I have no idea when the tortoises got the disease, whether with him or not. I do know the stress of pairs does not help anything.

 

[wellington]

I suppose we all have our bad days Steve! I thought that video would stand on its own merits, and I certainly didn't think others would have to defend it, but perhaps TFO has become more of a bastion of "Groupthink" than I realized.

So I'm wrong about the stress of pairs? About the possibility of it causing issues, not only with this particular disease, but with recovery, and reinfection, breeding, egg laying, etc, etc? Wrong about being just plain bad housing to keep them in pairs? A long with the basking temp. Those are the issues I brought up, that so far you both have danced around. Turning this into something you are making out of it not what I have!
Maybe it's not "Groupthink" but fact and real major concerns!

 

[ajtorts]

So I'm wrong about the stress of pairs? About the possibility of it causing issues, not only with this particular disease, but with recovery, and reinfection, breeding, egg laying, etc, etc? Wrong about being just plain bad housing to keep them in pairs? A long with the basking temp. Those are the issues I brought up, that so far you both have danced around. Turning this into something you are making out of it not what I have!
Maybe it's not "Groupthink" but fact and real major concerns!

Hi Wellington,

I'm Aaron Johnson, the creator of the short documentary on true Bell's Hingebacks and TINC. I'll address the concerns you brought up:

1. Stress in pairing off belliana.
First, testudine intranuclear coccidiosis was already in these tortoises before they arrived to me, and unbeknownst to me, a few that died already showed symptoms.
They had not been kept in pairs but in female heavy trios or in outdoor groups of 6 by previous owners; a couple from the groups had already died or were on the way out before the remainders arrived.
One group was kept as a trio of 1.2 til diagnosis, and one pair of 1.1 were kept individually in their own terrariums and were going to be for 6 months to a year to establish them. Those all died from TINC.
The pair in treatment have been kept isolated from each other in their own terrariums.
The healthy, egg laying pairs have been kept successfully as such since 2020-21 by previous owners and then subsequently myself. The paired off animals aren't doing well because they are in pairs -- it has nothing to do with it. It's the matter of being infected with TINC versus not and unknowns about tortoise immune systems. There's a lot more to the science of coccidian species which I won't address here, and if you're interested, you can find the citations in my video.
Raising tortoises in pairs is not a deal breaker. Some species can be, others need to be raised as singles, others in larger colonies.
One size doesn't fit all.
2. Basking.
I addressed basking with Hingebacks which also can apply to young Chaco tortoises, which I implied by showing a hatchling in an equivalent terrarium setup. I didn't address basking and temperatures for every species of tortoise. To conclude otherwise is your own mistake. Likewise, don't conclude that because Hingebacks eat worms that Chaco tortoises or Testudo species do so. That would be ridiculous.

 

[wellington]

Hi Wellington,

I'm Aaron Johnson, the creator of the short documentary on true Bell's Hingebacks and TINC. I'll address the concerns you brought up:

1. Stress in pairing off belliana.
First, testudine intranuclear coccidiosis was already in these tortoises before they arrived to me, and unbeknownst to me, a few that died already showed symptoms.
They had not been kept in pairs but in female heavy trios or in outdoor groups of 6 by previous owners; a couple from the groups had already died or were on the way out before the remainders arrived.
One group was kept as a trio of 1.2 til diagnosis, and one pair of 1.1 were kept individually in their own terrariums and were going to be for 6 months to a year to establish them. Those all died from TINC.
The pair in treatment have been kept isolated from each other in their own terrariums.
The healthy, egg laying pairs have been kept successfully as such since 2020-21 by previous owners and then subsequently myself. The paired off animals aren't doing well because they are in pairs -- it has nothing to do with it. It's the matter of being infected with TINC versus not and unknowns about tortoise immune systems. There's a lot more to the science of coccidian species which I won't address here, and if you're interested, you can find the citations in my video.
Raising tortoises in pairs is not a deal breaker. Some species can be, others need to be raised as singles, others in larger colonies.
One size doesn't fit all.
2. Basking.
I addressed basking with Hingebacks which also can apply to young Chaco tortoises, which I implied by showing a hatchling in an equivalent terrarium setup. I didn't address basking and temperatures for every species of tortoise. To conclude otherwise is your own mistake. Likewise, don't conclude that because Hingebacks eat worms that Chaco tortoises or Testudo species do so. That would be ridiculous.

Thank you for actually addressing my concerns instead of dancing around them like the others.
I don't agree about the pairs. I do think that doesn't help whether a healthy or sick tortoise. We seen so many on here, of different species, where it just doesn't work. However, as I have said a few times, we don't get much or have much info on any of the Hingebacks. We will have to agree to disagree on that, which is fine.
I'm assuming the worm comment was an example as I said nothing about feeding. I also don't believe I said anything to blame you for this disease, if I did, I didn't mean too. I understood they arrived sick or at least having been infected unknown to you.
Again, thank you and good luck.

 

[ajtorts]

Thank you for actually addressing my concerns instead of dancing around them like the others.
I don't agree about the pairs. I do think that doesn't help whether a healthy or sick tortoise. We seen so many on here, of different species, where it just doesn't work. However, as I have said a few times, we don't get much or have much info on any of the Hingebacks. We will have to agree to disagree on that, which is fine.
I'm assuming the worm comment was an example as I said nothing about feeding. I also don't believe I said anything to blame you for this disease, if I did, I didn't mean too. I understood they arrived sick or at least having been infected unknown to you.
Again, thank you and good luck.

You're welcome. 👍🏻
Yes, I made the feeding example as a point against extrapolating one part of husbandry that is suitable for a given species or genus to others that have very different requirements.

 

[ajtorts]

@wellington you are way off base here. Aaron is doing better than anyone else in the US with this species - and has multiple clutches of eggs to show for it. He’s got at least a couple decades of experience with tortoises and is one of only a handful of successful Chaco tortoise breeders. He has practiced good quarantine for about as long as it’s been promoted on this forum, and from day 1 with this species. The disease exposure occurred before he had these animals unfortunately.

Aaron Johnson wasn't able to attend TTPG in person but he put together a succinct presentation detailing his efforts to manage a population of Kenyan-exported Kinixys belliana infected with TINC. It's an amazing, must-see TV for all tortoise owners, not just those that are Kinixys nuts like me!

Tom, I really appreciate you sharing/supporting my video here, and phrasing it as must-see TV for all tortoise owners! 🙌🏻

 

[ajtorts]

@wellington you are way off base here. Aaron is doing better than anyone else in the US with this species - and has multiple clutches of eggs to show for it. He’s got at least a couple decades of experience with tortoises and is one of only a handful of successful Chaco tortoise breeders. He has practiced good quarantine for about as long as it’s been promoted on this forum, and from day 1 with this species. The disease exposure occurred before he had these animals unfortunately.

Thanks Steve for all you said! If I hadn't had the quarantine and bio security up from day one, anything could have happened. One of the worst things that can happen to us is having one of these lethal organisms or viruses rampaging through our colonies we've raised for years and years.

 

[dd33]

Hi Aaron, thanks for making the great video and joining the forum.

 

[wendigo]

Thanks for sharing. What a heartbreaking journey. Glad you’ve had some success, losing that group of 5 must have been awful.