I don't mind capturing the next few worms I see and adding them to the leopards' enclosure, just for the sake of science. Does anyone want to ship me some pill bugs? I've never seen them here.
baby torts are WAY WAY WAY more carnivorous than we'd like to think.
- Thread starter Balboa
- Start date
- Status
So whos going to start a supplementing cat/dog food to youngsters? Seriously I dont doubt that a young tortoise could benefit from the protein of bugs and even small mammals. In fact, I was on you tube trying to find the video of the galap tortoise that would wait by the waters edge for birds to come sit under it, then squash them and eat them. There are even a few videos of turtles in brazil eating pidgeons that got too close. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6SpH3ysbJA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8rU-bLYM7Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6SpH3ysbJA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8rU-bLYM7Y
I want to add a word of caution - yes, all this makes sense, but until there is more info, please don't everyone start feeding cat and dog food. A few insects here and there are probably fine, and even a pinky occasionally for adult tortoises, but cat and dog food I think is taking it too far.
Just because we now believe that protein does not contribute to pyramiding, does NOT mean that too much can't cause other health issues. There just isn't enough information. YET.
I have maintained for years that tortoises are opportunistic eaters. We insist on variety, and all these vitamins, and no fruit and yadda yadda... But the tort doesn't see it that way. The tortoise is gonna sit under the tree and eat figs until they stop falling. The tortoise is going to munch on that particular weed until there isn't any more - and then go find something else. Where food sources are scarce, a tortoise is going to munch on anything that will offer nutrition. That is just how nature works. Even carnivores will eat vegetation if they are hungry enough or if their bodies need a certain something. They can't thrive on it indefinitely, but they will eat it.
As I pointed out before, chelonians have been evolving for 23 million years. At 3 million years old, we are just babies, and need to catch up with the program
Just because we now believe that protein does not contribute to pyramiding, does NOT mean that too much can't cause other health issues. There just isn't enough information. YET.
I have maintained for years that tortoises are opportunistic eaters. We insist on variety, and all these vitamins, and no fruit and yadda yadda... But the tort doesn't see it that way. The tortoise is gonna sit under the tree and eat figs until they stop falling. The tortoise is going to munch on that particular weed until there isn't any more - and then go find something else. Where food sources are scarce, a tortoise is going to munch on anything that will offer nutrition. That is just how nature works. Even carnivores will eat vegetation if they are hungry enough or if their bodies need a certain something. They can't thrive on it indefinitely, but they will eat it.
As I pointed out before, chelonians have been evolving for 23 million years. At 3 million years old, we are just babies, and need to catch up with the program
Yep, Kristina's right, I'd hate to see someone go whole hog on this.
I think I can see Tom doing a nice controlled experiment though.
My gut's telling me this is the last puzzle piece to raising healthy beautiful tortoises.
More mushrooms, more bugs, healthy babies.
never seen a pillbug Tortyqueen? wow ... I can't flip a rock without finding some.
I think I can see Tom doing a nice controlled experiment though.
My gut's telling me this is the last puzzle piece to raising healthy beautiful tortoises.
More mushrooms, more bugs, healthy babies.
never seen a pillbug Tortyqueen? wow ... I can't flip a rock without finding some.
Interesting fact - Pillbugs, aka rolly pollies, sowbugs, or wood lice, are not native to the U.S. They came over from Europe on lumber shipments, and quickly populated almost the entire continent. They also are not "bugs" at all. They are crustaceans. They also happen to be very beneficial to the soil, and are a great addition to set ups with bioactive substrate and tarantula cages, etc.
Balboa said:
Ahh.... I didn't say I've never seen one, just that I haven't seen them where I live now (in Wyoming). I spent 17 years in Kansas and was well aquainted with pill bugs. So, you can send me some of your extras.
As it relates to protein, along with possibly eating meat in the wild, what about eating animal feces? Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't something like lion poop be full of protein? My tortoises have free run of the backyard where they share with our dogs when they go outside. I try my best to clean up after the dogs poop, but sometimes I'm not home or not quick enough and the tortoises will eat it right up.
Neal Butler said:
oh no, not the poop topic, that one is covered, yep they eat poop, most believe that has to do with replenishing the active digestive cultures in their guts or whatever, and Zoo-Med already includes that one. LOL not poop per se, but live cultures.
back to them being killers!
The argument suggesting that small tortoises are opportunistic hunters does sound good... but wouldn't it make equally as much sense to suggest that the tortoises might be eating the roots/tubers they find in their burrows instead? I know, I know, picturing the little guys chomping on those amazing root systems that arid plants have isn't as neat as the hunter image, but I think that roots make much more sense as a dietary choice than live prey for most grassland tortoise species. I'm not saying that hunting isn't possible, but I don't think its probable (except in forest species).
onarock said:
I've got 16 species of roaches. How many do you want? Those wouldn't be a problem there, would they? You've got lots of Jackson's chameleons to eat them up if any get out, right?
Thanks to Balboa for a great thread.
I could do a little experiment with some roaches tomorrow. You know, in the name of science. Not for fun or anything.
One detail here is that insects don't have any D3 in them. Well, at least the captive raised ones don't. Anybody know about the wild ones?
Tom said:
I had no idea that it would turn out this well, I really expected more resistance LOL.
According to this page I got to via Mark's website there actually is D3 in insects. How much that is I have no clue.
TerryK makes a big deal out of not giving his baby redfoots D3 powder and uvb lights. They get all they need from a little weekly cat chow. *shrug*
As to eating roots vs bugs, who knows, but the bugs have more nutrition and are less work.
I should also point out that I'm NOT suggesting they are opportunistic carnivores, that is well known.... I'm suggesting they are PRIMARILY Carnivorous
small reptiles are almost always insectivores, there's a reason for this. "Bugs is good food" and readily available in the places small reptiles live. Baby tortoises are small reptiles.
That must have been fantastic to see...I've been on desert tortoise surveys with AZ game and fish and you will find these animals living in a small home range for decades growing very little in some of the most desolate conditions. Makes a lot of sense that G.agssizii in the wild would take an opportunity like that. Such an event could provide a strong short term boost of nutrition for a very vulnerable animal living in energy deprived habitats. Kind of like a super natural energy supplement. I know we see WAY more lizards out on those surveys than tortoises so there's enough of them out there to eat.
Events like this probably are still very rare I imagine, but personally I wouldn't be surprised if adult desert tortoises eat 3-4 lizards a year...who knows for sure though.
Events like this probably are still very rare I imagine, but personally I wouldn't be surprised if adult desert tortoises eat 3-4 lizards a year...who knows for sure though.
maggie3fan said:When I lived in Calif I head started Gopherus agssizii for the rescue. One day I was sitting in the sun with a clutch of 4 or 5 month old babies. I was just watching them walk around and graze when all the sudden one of them froze, head out and up, eyes bright and alert and then he took off like a shot and grabbed a bluebelly lizard off the wall. The lizard was bigger than the hatchling but I'm damned if the hatchling didn't eat the whole thing! I say they eat meat when they can...
This has been a very interesting thread. Who is going to be the first to try this out. If anybody does can this be stickied in the food and diet forum, mods?
Im thinking about trying to mix in 1 lump of dog food, once a month in with livingstones mazuri, the consistency would be the same and it would be very diluted amongst the mazuri. Sounds like a safe starting point. Any opinions?
Im thinking about trying to mix in 1 lump of dog food, once a month in with livingstones mazuri, the consistency would be the same and it would be very diluted amongst the mazuri. Sounds like a safe starting point. Any opinions?
I think that the only way to really find out is to try it. No disrespect to Tom, as he should know how much I admire the work, research, and time that he has put into his theory(ies), but anyone can experiment to see what does and doesn't work. If you have some baby tortoises, throw in a few bugs and see what happens. The worst that could happen is they ignore them and you have to take them out..
*Note: By "anyone" I mean anyone that has a more-than-basic concept and understanding of the needs and requirements of keeping and caring for the animal.
While I'm not playing devils advocate; I do have to agree that meat-meals seem to be more readily available and would make more sense.
*Note: By "anyone" I mean anyone that has a more-than-basic concept and understanding of the needs and requirements of keeping and caring for the animal.
While I'm not playing devils advocate; I do have to agree that meat-meals seem to be more readily available and would make more sense.
Neal Butler said:
Not a lot of vertebrates like to eat carnivore poop, and a lot of dogs eat bad things or take meds that show up in the poop. I would not worry about them eating wild animal poop much, but dog and cat poop worries me.
chairman said:
Except that most roots are not loaded with the sorts of nutrients that help a lot- which is why they play such a small role in the adult diet. The amount of root they would need to eat probably exceeds their stomach volume.
Another point is that some species of tortoise do not burrow, so would not be digging to maximize root choices.
J. Ellis said:
kyryah said:
Interesting...never knew they weren't native to North America.
I've seen 'em as far north as Juneau, Alaska and as far south as Quito, Ecuador, and assumed they'd always been in the Americas.
- Status
