Babies Phayrei

[johndesiles]

Thank you for message No the female has not experienced MEE

 

[tortadise]

Kelly, that reference concludes that both pectoral scute configurations belong to the same 'species'. In reality, the two were given subspecific differentiation before the writing of the text (http://www.reptilia.net/articulos_ing/029.pdf - see Taxonomy). The text indicates the two subspecies were considered to have full generic distinction - T. phayrei vs. M. emys and the difference was sexual dimorphism not a subspecific morphological trait. Additionally, the specimens mentioned were supposedly collected in the northwestern limits (Arakan, Assam & Cachar) of Mep range and it is known [now] that Mee do not exist there. (http://www.chelonian.org/ttn/archives/ttn5/pp2-6.shtml - see Range Map). I cannot offer a resolution to those inconsistencies but would suggest there was some confusion or inaccuracy. This may be best illustrated by the last statement of the article on page 144. --no offense intended but it is hazardous to use old references...

@johndesiles, have you had the female tortoise longer than 2 to 4 years? If not, is it possible the female was kept in the same enclosure with Mee? Perhaps something of that nature is responsible. It is also possible the male is 75% Mep and 25% Mee or some other mostly Mep intergrade.

...just trying to cover all bases...

Fantastic source art. No offense taken at all. Old sources are very inaccurate. I do still like to read them though to see the pioneering of biology increase in more detail and new findings.

 

[johndesiles]

the issue is complicated !
what do you think @emysbreeder ?

 

[johndesiles]

http://www.chelonia.org/articles/diffmanouria.htm
Pictured same animal as described phayrei

 

[emysbreeder]

Thank you for your messages very very interesting
I am very interested, will you know a genetic laboratory for genetic identification
I agree with you, for me it seems MEP, but you never know?

...Their PHAYREI...dont worry about it. M.e.e and M.E.phayrei are very closely related. Tortoises from the middle of their range can share some trates. So for 30,000,000 years some animals on the North/South Kline (Thailand and now Burma*) L. McKaskill * per com. will have interbred somewhere along the line and then it is deluded out or become a midland sub. In some species there are named "midland species" if they breed "true to type". So, we get throw back trates or bits and pieces of the evaluational change from M.E.P. to M.E.E or the other way around. I talked to Dr.Peter Pritchard about this as we were looking at some in my collection. Being the wise a.. that I am I ask him "just what is the stratagee of survival in the evaluation of Pectoral scutes" he looked a one a few minutes then said, " The pectoral area of their shell is the only place that they could "become smaller" " It seems to make sense as M.e.e are smaller than M.e.p with smaller pectoral scutes. If Nature wants to have a intergrade that is fine but we as keepers should not interbreed. Its foolish, and devalues captive born Mt.Torts. for everyone. This sub forum is the only place that talks about intergrades/hybreds Manouria all the time. For now there only a few known mutts out there. We need to keep them apart from each other or it will make a mess of everything. These are majestic tortoises from yesteryear, not pet snakes bred like Koi/goldfish for the mass market. I'll be on facebook now with a weekly report of what is going on here at Defying Destiny Mt.Tortoise reserve. I'll check in here from time to time. You can ask me questions on mt.Torts anytime on my message board on facebook. Come on be and be FRIEND-ED. Vic Morgan

 

[emysbreeder]

Great news, John!!! I'm so happy for you.

I guess this means that the dad is actually an intergrade, and not full phayrei.

Why would you come to this conclusion? The thick group of growth lines mean nothing but that it was a captive animal that never experienced an abrasive substrate. If they are worn down by tortoise substrate friction you get a center line with pectoral scutes extending to the midline. You may be over thinking it. Vic

 

[emysbreeder]

on facebook. Vic

 

[johndesiles]

Hello Vic Thanks for the messages I recorded for Facebook Very soon a picture of the pectoral Manouria babies

 

[johndesiles]

- Here the two babies to weird plastron





- a picture to compare with a standard baby





- a picture of the male adult





- a picture of the female adult

 

[emysbreeder]

Sometimes pectoral scutes dont look normal compared to what we see in a few books. It makes no sense to try to put a percentage of each subspecies on them. Pectoral scouts do not hold up 100% of the time. When this happens you must look at all the features, of adults and babies. All the babies are phayrei. The adults are phayrei. Pectoral scutes all look clearly phayrei without question. The scutes that meat in the middle "together" and the ones that meet in two separate places are both phayrei .It means nothing. Same with the adult that doesn't quite meet. Doesn't matter. The fact that the babies are ALL born brown "in color" is proof of phayrei. We have all seen pictures of baby emys emys here, and they are not this color. Everyone is over thinking this hybrid thing. I hope this helps as there are so many cool things like the fact that this guy bred them in France. The more places in the world their bred the better. Natural disasters , War and government can wipe whole collections off the face of the earth at any moment. Vic

 

[johndesiles]

yes you are right Vic, the typical black mottled brown color Manouria Emys phayrei, I also reproduces the Manouria Emys Emys and babies are very light gray