At what age can you tell about pyramiding

[PeanutbuttER]

Maui is my first hatchling. I've been trying to keep her sprayed down, with lots of moss in the enclosure, and generally just maintain humidity. I just added it up and she turns 6 months next week. That means I've had her for 4 months and she looks to me like she's still growing smoothly.

But, I don't know if that's good enough. After having had her for 4 months would that be enough to tell if my husbandry is keeping her shell smooth? I hope it makes sense that I'm not asking about how to keep a tort from pyramiding, but rather about when I will be able to tell if what I'm doing is working. How soon do hatchlings start pyramiding if they're in an environment where they will? I'm doing my best to keep her healthy.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

You'd be seeing it by now, it starts young...good job!

 

[Kristina]

Pretty darn quick. At 4 months, you would see ridges between the scutes. My baby is 4 months old as well and as slick as a whistle Fantastic feeling, isn't it?

Got pics, silly?

 

[Tom]

I've seen it starting as early as two weeks. In sulcatas, most agree that you are safe by the time they reach 6-8", but I don't know about redfoots. I'd PM Terry K, (redfootnerd) and ask him. For the desert torts we can just get them to a certain size and then let them dry out and live outside, but for a forest tort, you'll need some humidity for ever. There is probably a size where you can relax a little.

The first month or two are the most critical, and really the first couple of years are pretty important.

 

[PeanutbuttER]

Thanks for the quick replies! I suppose I'm worried because she's my first, and since I've never seen the start of pyramiding before, so I wasn't sure what/when to expect it. Okay, that makes me feel better knowing that if there isn't pyramiding by now then things are probably just fine in the enclosure.

Oh, pics, of course These are like a week old maybe. I posted them on another thread.

I shouldda taken some pictures today. I had to lure her out of her humid hide for dinner with a cactus slice. She was chasing me all the way to the food rock

Here's two pics that show a side profile, and one more that is a bit of a close up. I think she's smooth, but let me know if anyone sees anything.

Tom, so I am right in assuming there is a size by which growth patterns are more or less set and barring drastic environmental changes you wouldn't need to worry so much. If Terry K doesn't see this in a few days I'll PM him for his opinion. He probably is one of the best sources to consult about this.

 

[Tom]

Well I know its that way for sulcatas, leopards and CDTs, but I really don't know if it works that way for all species. Desert species of torts spend almost all of their time underground in humid burrows as babies and then, when they get bigger, they march around in the hot dry air a lot. For a forest tort, like your redfoot, it might not work this way.

We are in agreement that Terry K is one of the best people to ask about this. He's a red foot expert AND he's been leading the way for this "wet" movement for many years now. The man doesn't get enough credit for what he's done. He met a lot of resistance to this initially and fought it a lot. Then when people like me came along, the battle was already mostly won by him. He was a lone voice opposing the crowd. Its been relatively easy for me to spread the word because he paved the way and now there are a whole bunch of us screaming, " HEY! THIS WET STUFF REALLY WORKS!" Its easier for people to listen now, because of the seeds Terry planted long ago. The people who come after our group will have an even easier time with it.

Anyway, I'd love to hear what he has to say about this.

 

[HarleyK]

I am sure you can see it by that age if there is any pyramiding at all, because mine has already begun pyramiding unfortunately. The scute right above the tail is a stacking a bit. He's only 8 months old and I had him for about 4 months now. Keep up the good work.

 

[cdmay]

[quote='Tom' pid='175007' dateline='1287548954']
We are in agreement that Terry K is one of the best people to ask about this. He's a red foot expert AND he's been leading the way for this "wet" movement for many years now. The man doesn't get enough credit for what he's done. He met a lot of resistance to this initially and fought it a lot. He was a lone voice opposing the crowd. Its easier for people to listen now, because of the seeds Terry planted long ago. The people who come after our group will have an even easier time with it.

Anyway, I'd love to hear what he has to say about this.
[/quote]

Well, not to rain on anyone's parade or sound like sour grapes but....Terry K did not pioneer it the humid environment concept, nor did he come up with it. The fact is that the humid hide-humid environment idea has been around for at least twenty years. Or more.
The principles of keeping young tortoises humid to avoid pyramiding are not new by any means and most of them have been discussed, ad naseum, on other forums, or discussed among tortoise keepers for years and years. It is not a new concept.
TerryK did come up with a very useful website where he took thoughts and experiences from other tortoise people and then made them available to newer keepers looking for advice. Terry K did his homework by questioning (oh man, with ENDLESS questions!) many long time keepers about how they achieved their success and what mistakes they made along the way. But to imply that these are 'his' ideas is simply untrue and slights the countless tortoise people who had to figure all of this out the hard way.

 

[Madkins007]

Maggie and Kristina are both correct in that thickened growth lines, etc. can start to show up really quickly. It is also important to remember that although babies are INCREDIBLY susceptible to pyramiding, it can happen later as well.

I know this is heresy on forums like this, but I will also point out that 'simple pyramiding'- that is, deformed scutes on a hard and otherwise well-shaped shell- seems to be primarily a cosmetic issue. Pyramided Red-foots (without other issues like MBD) appear to live as long and reproduce as well as smooth torts.

Or, to put it another way, simple pyramiding is not a sign of bad husbandry in the way that things like Metabolic Bone Disorder or dehydration are.

 

[Candy]

Very well put Carl (Cdmay).

 

[Tom]

[quote='Tom' pid='175007' dateline='1287548954']
We are in agreement that Terry K is one of the best people to ask about this. He's a red foot expert AND he's been leading the way for this "wet" movement for many years now. The man doesn't get enough credit for what he's done. He met a lot of resistance to this initially and fought it a lot. He was a lone voice opposing the crowd. Its easier for people to listen now, because of the seeds Terry planted long ago. The people who come after our group will have an even easier time with it.

Anyway, I'd love to hear what he has to say about this.

Well, not to rain on anyone's parade or sound like sour grapes but....Terry K did not pioneer it the humid environment concept, nor did he come up with it. The fact is that the humid hide-humid environment idea has been around for at least twenty years. Or more.
The principles of keeping young tortoises humid to avoid pyramiding are not new by any means and most of them have been discussed, ad naseum, on other forums, or discussed among tortoise keepers for years and years. It is not a new concept.
TerryK did come up with a very useful website where he took thoughts and experiences from other tortoise people and then made them available to newer keepers looking for advice. Terry K did his homework by questioning (oh man, with ENDLESS questions!) many long time keepers about how they achieved their success and what mistakes they made along the way. But to imply that these are 'his' ideas is simply untrue and slights the countless tortoise people who had to figure all of this out the hard way.
[/quote]

Carl! Finally we disagree! Okay the following is all intended with good humor and respect:

20 years??? Humid hides, yes. Humid hides for tortoises, I don't think so. If you knew about humid hides for sulcatas and leopards and how to prevent pyramiding 20 years ago, why did you keep it such a secret?!!

Maybe we've been living on two different planets. I've been professionally involved with tortoises since the mid 80's. My best friend was in wholesale. One of my primary mentors was the biggest importer on the west coast for 2 or 3 decades (He shut down around 1985). I did retail for 8 years. I've read every book and magazine I could get my hands on and talked to every tortoise person I could find about pyramiding. Not once did anyone, anywhere even hint about humidity or humid hides for tortoises. Now I'll grant you that the information may have been out there and I just missed it, but it wasn't from lack of trying.

The first mention I ever heard of humidity for baby desert species was in the Fife's 2007 Leopard tortoise book. I bought it as soon as it was published and the humid thing was mention the middle of the book. When I read that passage, I swear I heard trumpets sounding! From everything I've gathered Richard and or Jerry "discovered" this in 2001-2002. If anyone should get credit for "discovering" this breakthrough its the Fife's. They were the first to publish it on a large scale that I ever saw anyway.

TerryK seems to have picked up on all this around 2003-2004. I don't credit TerryK for "discovering" this, but I DO credit him for sticking his neck out and PROMOTING the heck out of it. Others certainly discovered it, but Terry did play a large part developing and sharing the info. It should also be noted Carl, that Terry thinks very highly of you and credits you with a lot of his knowledge. He mentions you and his "ENDLESS" question frequently in our conversations and he has a very humble and appreciative tone when discussing how you've helped him.

So Carl, it seems I've been remiss in not mentioning YOU as one of the major contributors to this big discovery and for that I apologize.

 

[Madkins007]

Just as a point of information, I was reading articles on humid hides and humidity chambers for American Box Turtles in the late 70's/early 80's. I can picture the diagrams clearly in my mind although I cannot tell you what book it was in. I adapted the idea to my Red-foot when I had one in '84-93ish and he was drying out in his usual habitat.

Information can be well known to one group and nearly unknown to a similar group even in this Internet instant information age. When I was the editor of the local herp newsletter back in the last half of the 80's we did a lot of newsletter swaps. I saw this phenomena all the time- cool info in one newsletter that no one else had ever heard of.



And I think we may be veering into rocky waters if we discuss people in this thread rather than issues.

 

[terryo]

I can go back further than that Mark. As far back as I can remember, my Dad had glass tanks that he made himself. I don't remember every species that he had in there, as I was very little, but I always remember looking in there and sometimes you couldn't even see in the tank it was so wet and humid. When I was older and got into my own boxies, he always remimded me that the hatchlings that were inside had to have a lot of humidity. When I got Pio I applied this concept to my enclosure. My Dad never wrote a book, or an article for a magazine, but he used to take me into the woods when I was little just to "learn" as he put it. So I believe the concept of humidity and humid hides have been around a long time. We didn't have a computer to spread the word then.

 

[Tom]

Likewise, I've been using humid hides for turtles and lizards since the early 90's. It was just never brought up for hatchlings of "desert" species torts.

Mark your newsletter story was very interesting. I remember being handed my first copy of "The Vivarium". I couldn't put it down. It was so different than any other thing I had ever read. Things are most certainly different in the internet age.

 

[Kristina]

I got my first tortoise at the age of 12. It was a displaced Florida Gopher that was given to me by my biology teacher (at 12 years old I was already in the 9th grade, lol.) I had him for several years in a large glass tank, with top soil as the substrate. For a "burrow" he had one of those "wine chillers." They are a long terra cotta tube that you put wine bottles in with ice to chill. Every couple of days I would soak the burrow it in warm water, and he got sprayed every day. When he outgrew the wine chiller he had a larger terra cotta pot, which I also soaked to keep it nice and damp. Made sense to me that it was very humid where he came from, especially under ground.

He grew nice and smooth, and was about 10" and maybe 18-20 lbs when he died (predator broke in to his outside pen and killed him. I was devastated and still mourn his loss, 7 years later.)

My point is, I was using humid hides and daily misting 17 years ago. (Granted I was using a heat rock also, but, well, we can't all be perfect )

 

[Tom]

Well jeez Kristina. Why didn't YOU tell the rest of the world sooner?

 

[Kristina]

Actually Tom, I tried. I had my own tortoise website even back then (it is gone now, since Geocities shut down.)

Like anyone was going to listen to a 12 year old know-it-all kid, lol.

 

[cdmay]

20 years??? Humid hides, yes. Humid hides for tortoises, I don't think so. If you knew about humid hides for sulcatas and leopards and how to prevent pyramiding 20 years ago, why did you keep it such a secret?!!

I'm laughing here but for one, I've never kept sulcatas nor had any interest in them. Regarding leopard tortoises, as they are somewhat pyramided naturally (as are star tortoises) I expected them to have a different shaped shell than the redfoots, yellowfoots, elongated tortoises and even the Testudo I used to keep. Besides, when I raised my leopard tortoises outdoors they were as perfect as could be anyway so unnatural pyramiding for me was not an issue.
I've never kept any 'secrets' but then you also have to remember that the tortoise keeping world was very different 20 or more years ago than it is now. We didn't have the Internet with dozens of different web sites focused on keeping reptiles. Ideas simply were not exchanged back and forth instantly as they are now. Except for the various Expos--which themselves are relatively new--the only thing we had to exchange information was the telephone or the U.S. Mail. Nobody kept secrets but there were nowhere near the number of keepers there are today and no real way to spread information effectively.
So while some folks learned of things in one part of the country that didn't mean everyone else learned the same things simultaneously. And even though the concept of humid hides/humid environment was something talked about a long time ago, many people (like me) also believed that diet played a factor. BTW, I still believe diet plays a role.
One thing about the forums and other web sites...even with the Internet at hand, that doesn't insure accurate information. There are a great many keepers today who base nearly everything they know about tortoises on what they see offered for sale on the Kingsnake.com classifieds or somebody's web site. Sometimes you just have to put in the years before you get things straight. I remember one guy, maybe even on this forum, arguing with me about some race of redfoot tortoises. His whole argument was centered on the fact that because he had never seen what I was describing offered for sale on Kingsnake.com they must not exist.

 

[cdmay]

20 years??? Humid hides, yes. Humid hides for tortoises, I don't think so. If you knew about humid hides for sulcatas and leopards and how to prevent pyramiding 20 years ago, why did you keep it such a secret?!!

I'm laughing here but for one, I've never kept sulcatas nor had any interest in them.
My leopard tortoises all grew perfectly outdoors and besides, as they are somewhat pyramided naturally, I never expected them to have the same shaped carapace as my redfoots, yellowfoots, elongateds and even Testudo that I used to keep.
Nobody kept secrets Tom but the tortoise keeping world was very different 20 (or more) years ago. You didn't have the Internet where ideas could be exchanged instantly. Keepers talked on the phone or used the U.S. Mail and then more recently would meet at the various reptile expos or conferences.
The idea of the humid hide/humid environment was a general idea kicked around by a lot of people---in no way am I taking any credit for that at all--as was diet, lack of sunlight and a bunch of other things that were thought to cause, or influence pyramiding. I still think there are many factors that can cause pyramiding just as I think there are different types of this condition.
The fact that you didn't hear of the humidity factor years ago is simply a result of the fact that not everyone in the country was able learn of things simultaneously like they are now.

 

[DeanS]

Tom! Any current plans to take on some Babcocki as well and put this baby to rest? I feel they would be the ultimate tell-all, being as your sulcata and pardalis are coming along quite nicely (understatement).