Aquariums vs plastic tubs

[Vitreous]

Some of the compiled howtos recommend never using aquariums. They cause a 'green house effect' that dehydrate the tortoises. Another of the compiled howtos says this is nonsense and aquariums are fine. For the life of me I cant image what the difference would be between the two. They are both water tight enclosures. Why would glass cause 'green house effect' but plastic wouldn't?

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[wellington]

Aquariums are not a no no on this forum which has the correct info. However, a plastic tub is also a good choice and what I liked about them back in the day, was how I could easily cut a hole in it to attach another tub until my guy was big enough to move outside. Plus the tubs are much cheaper.
Now depending on what age you are getting, you will need a closed chamber to start and they all will need bigger then the biggest tub or easily bought aquarium

 

[Cathie G]

Hello and welcome. Sunlight intensifies when going through glass. Also plastic but not as much I use wood but I've not raised a baby. So either glass or plastic may be good for a baby so that you can make a little micro climate in a pinch. You'll have to do bigger and better at some point though. They grow up.🤗

 

[Vitreous]

Im getting 4 eastern babies 2 or so months old. I was going to use a 40 breeder or a 200 liter plastic tub. i know this will be outgrown within a year.

 

[wellington]

Too small for 4 of them to begin with. The 40 is used/good for one, maybe two but that's pushing it. They need to have the room to exercise. They will need a couple hides, a couple feeding spots and a larger clay saucer for drinking and soaking in.

 

[Tom]

Some of the compiled howtos recommend never using aquariums. They cause a 'green house effect' that dehydrate the tortoises. Another of the compiled howtos says this is nonsense and aquariums are fine. For the life of me I cant image what the difference would be between the two. They are both water tight enclosures. Why would glass cause 'green house effect' but plastic wouldn't?

Thanks,
Jeff

Welcome to the confusing and contradictory world of tortoise care advice!

Glass tanks have two issues: 1. They are too small for anything but a little baby. 2. The open tops let all the necessary heat and humidity out. All that other stuff you read about them is nonsense. Greenhouse effect? Any enclosure left in the sun will heat up like a green house. "Invisible barrier that stresses them out". Preposterous. I've raised hundreds of babies behind glass. Not a one of them ever had a problem with it.

Most of what you read or hear is old wrong info. Read this for more explanation of what the heck is going on, and then look for the temperate species care sheet near the bottom for the actual real correct care info:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

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[Vitreous]

Welcome to the confusing and contradictory world of tortoise care advice!

Glass tanks have two issues: 1. They are too small for anything but a little baby. 2. The open tops let all the necessary heat and humidity out. All that other stuff you read about them is nonsense. Greenhouse effect? Any enclosure left in the sun will heat up like a green house. "Invisible barrier that stresses them out". Preposterous. I've raised hundreds of babies behind glass. Not a one of them ever had a problem with it.

Most of what you read or hear is old wrong info. Read this for more explanation of what the heck is going on, and then look for the temperate species care sheet near the bottom for the actual real correct care info:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Your post is the first thing i read here. This is for 2" baby easterns. i'm planning to build a L shaped wooden enclosure 8 feet on one leg, 12 feet on the other, 4 feet wide. the tank or bin would just be for the first maybe 6 months. for either one i would build a wood top that opens with a hinge, so they wouldnt be open top.

 

[wellington]

Your post is the first thing i read here. This is for 2" baby easterns. i'm planning to build a L shaped wooden enclosure 8 feet on one leg, 12 feet on the other, 4 feet wide. the tank or bin would just be for the first maybe 6 months. for either one i would build a wood top that opens with a hinge, so they wouldnt be open top.

Now its 2? You said above 4 two year olds. If its two, they can not be housed in pairs. One will suffer, not grow as well as the other and both will be stressed. Groups or single not pairs.
If you get one, the enclosure you are building will last probably it's life, specially if you can also give it outside space. If you are getting two, you will need two enclosures and if you are really getting 4 then you will need bigger enclosure that is more of a room dedicated solely to them.

 

[McScoots]

i respectfully disagree about not having pairs. I have a pair of four year old westerns and they are fine. at one point i tried to separate them, but they just climbed over/under to get back to each other. i think you just need to observe and separate them if needed. their enclosure has evolved over time, initially it was a small cement tub, to a large cement tub, to a small waterland tub (http://www.waterlandtubs.com) to now their 3'x16' outdoor enclosure when conditions are right for outdoors (ie, all sumer and spring, most of fall)

 

[Vitreous]

Now its 2? You said above 4 two year olds. If its two, they can not be housed in pairs. One will suffer, not grow as well as the other and both will be stressed. Groups or single not pairs.
If you get one, the enclosure you are building will last probably it's life, specially if you can also give it outside space. If you are getting two, you will need two enclosures and if you are really getting 4 then you will need bigger enclosure that is more of a room dedicated solely to them.

my post says four two months old, not four two years old. these are 2" babies

 

[wellington]

my post says four two months old, not four two years old. these are 2" babies

Yes, 2 months old, not years, sorry, not sure why I wrote years. So you are getting 4 of them at approximately 2 inches, 2 months?

 

[Vitreous]

i respectfully disagree about not having pairs. I have a pair of four year old westerns and they are fine. at one point i tried to separate them, but they just climbed over/under to get back to each other. i think you just need to observe and separate them if needed. their enclosure has evolved over time, initially it was a small cement tub, to a large cement tub, to a small waterland tub (http://www.waterlandtubs.com) to now their 3'x16' outdoor enclosure when conditions are right for outdoors (ie, all sumer and spring, most of fall)

thank you, thats extremely helpful

 

[Vitreous]

Yes, 2 months old, not years, sorry, not sure why I wrote years. So you are getting 4 of them at approximately 2 inches, 2 months?

thats correct sir

 

[ZEROPILOT]

thank you, thats extremely helpful

Actually it's not at all helpful.
It's bad information.
The act of one climbing back to be with the other one is aggressive behavior. Not a sign of friendship.
It's hard to stop thinking like a cuddly mammal. But tortoises do not make tortoise friends.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

i respectfully disagree about not having pairs. I have a pair of four year old westerns and they are fine. at one point i tried to separate them, but they just climbed over/under to get back to each other. i think you just need to observe and separate them if needed. their enclosure has evolved over time, initially it was a small cement tub, to a large cement tub, to a small waterland tub (http://www.waterlandtubs.com) to now their 3'x16' outdoor enclosure when conditions are right for outdoors (ie, all sumer and spring, most of fall)

I can't speak for every veteran member here. Just myself. Pairs are something that I did myself. Decades ago. Before these groups. Before the internet. We were just winging it and learning as we went. Helped out by old books with mostly old and Incorrect information about EVERYTHING. Feeding, general husbandry, etc.
So much of the behavior that I saw: following each other around. Sleeping together, eating together and acting inseparable all seemed to me like those two tortoises really liked one another.
Knowing what I know now. I'm horrified by that. But no one pointed out what was really going on. And everything looked fine to me.
Please trust us when we say that a pair of tortoises. Any tortoises. Are stressed. And stress can cause serious health issues.
Some species will bite off tails and limbs. Most others are more subtle.
But it's harmful.
With groups, a lot of times the agression can get spread out so that the group bullie(s) don't single out any one tortoise. But I've got to tell you that I've had groups that didn't work out, also. And that's with hundreds of square feet of outdoors enclosure in an ideal climate for my species

 

[Tom]

Your post is the first thing i read here. This is for 2" baby easterns. i'm planning to build a L shaped wooden enclosure 8 feet on one leg, 12 feet on the other, 4 feet wide. the tank or bin would just be for the first maybe 6 months. for either one i would build a wood top that opens with a hinge, so they wouldnt be open top.

Wood will rot with the necessary moisture and humidity. Use expanded PVC sheets instead of plywood.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

As for aquariums. The issue isn't the glass. Glass would be fine.
It's that almost every aquarium will be too small. And they're also expensive. So they're not a great choice.
With many species, such as Redfoot
They type I keep. That "greenhouse effect" is wanted.

 

[Tom]

i respectfully disagree about not having pairs. I have a pair of four year old westerns and they are fine. at one point i tried to separate them, but they just climbed over/under to get back to each other. i think you just need to observe and separate them if needed. their enclosure has evolved over time, initially it was a small cement tub, to a large cement tub, to a small waterland tub (http://www.waterlandtubs.com) to now their 3'x16' outdoor enclosure when conditions are right for outdoors (ie, all sumer and spring, most of fall)

Look up the word "anthropomorphism". That is what you are doing here.

You assume that they climber over/under to get back to each other. Could it not be that they wanted to get back to that section of their familiar enclosure for any number of reasons? Maybe they wanted to get back over there to ensure that the persistent intruder isn't using up their resources or sleeping in their favorite spot?

Because they are not actively trying to kill each other with overt obvious hostility, does not mean they are "fine". Things are not oaky, and you are doing them a disservice by housing them this way whether you realize it yet or not.

Are you basing this assertion on a sample size of two tortoises? You are arguing this point with someone who has raised more than two tortoises, just so you know.

Here is an excerpt from the care sheet I wrote explain this in more detail:
9. Pairs: Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. Groups of juveniles can sometimes work, but not pairs. Group dynamics are different than pair dynamics. Whenever there are just two, one will be dominant and the other submissive. The dominant is clearly telling the submissive to "GET OUT!" of my territory, but the submissive can't. This can be seen in animals as primitive as flatworms. Most people do not see the signs in tortoises. Our tortoises don't have the ability to growl. They don't have lips to snarl, or hackles to raise, yet they show their hostility just the same, but in their own way. Following each other, cuddling in a shelter, sleeping face to face, sitting on the food pile... All of these are blatant tortoise aggression. People are looking for biting, ramming and other overt signs. Those overt behaviors do happen in some cases, but more often the two tortoises are just forced to live in each other's space in a state of constant chronic stress, while the owner thinks everything is just fine because they aren't actively attacking and biting each other. It is NOT fine. Keep tortoises alone, which is totally fine, or in groups of three or more, which can sometimes lead to other problems down the road as they all begin to mature. Tortoises do not want or need company. Some species tolerate company better than others, but none should be kept in pairs. For some breeding projects, it is advantageous to raise them up in groups, but never pairs. If you only want two tortoises, that is great. Get two separate enclosures. And two outdoor enclosures for fair weather too.

Here is the whole thing:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[McScoots]

idk. i checked in with the breeder (Chris @ Garden State) and i havent ever seen any signs bleeding/bruising/abuse. Chrisr didnt seem phased by the notion of pairs. . neither did my vet. maybe i have two unicorns? lol