A guy told me there is a special wax ....

[Tortus]

I use just a drop or two of 100% argan oil once every week or so. It's easily absorbed and vitamin rich. It doesn't leave a greasy feeling behind.

My tort's shell is shiny anyway with or without it since it hasn't been baked by the sun yet. I figure if it's used to strengthen hair and nails in humans without any chemical additives, it shouldn't hurt.

A tortoise's shell is made of keratin. Human fingernails are made of keratin and women put all kinds of crap on those.

 

[Watsonpartyof4]

I use just a drop or two of 100% argan oil once every week or so. It's easily absorbed and vitamin rich. It doesn't leave a greasy feeling behind.

My tort's shell is shiny anyway with or without it since it hasn't been baked by the sun yet. I figure if it's used to strengthen hair and nails in humans without any chemical additives, it shouldn't hurt.

A tortoise's shell is made of keratin. Human fingernails are made of keratin and women put all kinds of crap on those.

It shouldn't hurt? But why chance it? ... Ok how about this, when people lay out in the sun they put oil on their skin, and what happens? You get hotter, you sweat and get over heated. I would worry about using anything on my Tort that could cause over heating under a lamp, let alone out in the sun! They have NO WAY of getting it off!

I would much rather have a healthy tort with dull looking shell, than be vain and superficial and have a tort with a shiny shell who could get over heated and sick.

Just my humble opinion .. And you know what they say ...opinions are like a$$holes ... Everybody's got one!

 

[Tortus]

I wasn't aware that tortoise shells got sunburn. You're comparing human skin to a shell. Not the same.

I hardly think a thin layer of argan once in a while would cause it to overheat. The temp gun under the light reads the same with or without any oil.

I do it mainly for the vitamin E since mine's not dull to begin with. It absorbs fairly quickly and doesn't leave a greasy film like suntan oil.

 

[RedfootsRule]

Watson, thats a very good example. I'm not exactly sure how well it applies to our shelled companions, but it is a good example never-the-less.

Neal,
What benefit has it, that you can say? I don't see how I can give an example that it doesn't have a benefit...Except this. Your leopards shell is gorgeous. I attribute that to proper husbandry excersiced by you, not the vita-shell. Proper humidity, proper diet. Thats why the shell is shiny...What people likely attribute to vita-shell is because of other husbandry practices, not the vita-shell.
I've never seen any benefit of it. Other then to please the vanity of the owners, there is no obvious benefit.

Yagyujubei,
That is a completely different subject. When you leave the house, you take a risk. USUALLY, there are benefits; going to the store to get that food you eat = benefit. Going to that job to pay for everything you have = benefit. Thus, taking a risk with a benefit. Thats an illustration that does not in any way apply to this topic.

Shelloise,
Your opposite advice is to "do it anyways cause I've done it for years and seen no harm". Just because you SEE no harm doesn't mean its there people...If you want to know for sure, get a scute from a tortoise thats been clogged with vita-shell for a year and a regular scute, and compare under a microscope...(Might have to search google for one of those...) Clearly, you've posted this to tell yourself your doing the right thing, not to let anyone tell you what your doing wrong...
USUALLY, the use of a debate is to change the opinion of others and sway them to the better side. Thats what I'm attempting to do. Your being narrow-minded about the whole situation and want to believe what YOU are doing is right.

Tortus,
A thin layer of argan oil is likely not harmful. However, the comparison of a womens finger-nails is irrelevant. A fingernail covers a finger-tip...A shell covers the whole body.

Please, someone show me substantial evidence that it has done any benefit to your tortoise...You will not be able to. You "feel" like it hydrates the shell; in reality, what it does and what you think it does are two completely different things. It is MADE to make the shells look shiny and please the owners aesthetically; that doesn't mean it has ANY benefit.

Heres my benefit to the contrary


Shiny enough for you? Oh, might I add, in the years this tortoise has been in my care, she has NEVER been slathered with any kind of wax or "shell conditioner". That shine comes from health and water....

 

[Neal]

Neal,
What benefit has it, that you can say? I don't see how I can give an example that it doesn't have a benefit...Except this. Your leopards shell is gorgeous. I attribute that to proper husbandry excersiced by you, not the vita-shell. Proper humidity, proper diet. Thats why the shell is shiny...What people likely attribute to vita-shell is because of other husbandry practices, not the vita-shell.
I've never seen any benefit of it. Other then to please the vanity of the owners, there is no obvious benefit.

Please, someone show me substantial evidence that it has done any benefit to your tortoise...You will not be able to. You "feel" like it hydrates the shell; in reality, what it does and what you think it does are two completely different things. It is MADE to make the shells look shiny and please the owners aesthetically; that doesn't mean it has ANY benefit.

I have already listed what benefits I have seen and stated that I BELIEVE it has provided these benefits. I'll be the first to admit that my experience is debatable and subjective which is why I don't want to have that discussion. We could go back and forth until we were blue in the face. I have made no definitive statements here and I don't attribute the excellent shell condition of the leopard I posted specifically to Vitashell. It was shown to illustrate that it did not cause any damage or malformation.

Actually, I don't think anyone has said definitively that it does provide any benefit. The argument I have here is that you have said definitively that it doesn't...which is fine...and you went on to say that there is some great risk in using the product. Again, that is fine, but in order for me to except that as any matter of fact or legitimate risk, I'm going to need a little bit more than speculation and opinion when it has done no harm to my tortoises over the years. Based on the extensive experience I have with this product, I cannot accept the argument that there is some sort of underlying health risk to my tortoises that I simply haven't or cannot observe yet, so I hope you understand my need for something more substantial if I were to accept the argument that it is harmful.

 

[RedfootsRule]

Neal,
I understand what you mean. I can see no harm it has done to your tortoise, if it has been used regularly for years, but what benefit has it? No, it does not SHOW that it caused any damage; it also doesn't show any benefit...It looks like a normal, pretty leopard tortoise. Nothing more. There is slight pyramiding, so obviously it had little to no effect to "hydrate" the shell, or "trap in" moisture. There is none I can see.
I have continually illustrated the POSSIBLE risks...I can't say I've seen it in person. But many of the ingredients pose a possible risk....And the nature of the product. Just because any harm hasn't been observed doesn't mean it isn't there.
Several members here seem to say they "feel" like it "hydrates and conditions" the shells...Look back in the post; you will see where several members tried to state it had any benefit what so-ever. And no definitive evidence has been provided for benefit...Other then they "feel" like it. And its obvious, they "feel" like it has provided benefit, because the shell looks nice and shiny...That will make a person think it did benefit. Various chemicals could be smeared only our body and make it look nice and shiny; several of these will cause harm..But "look" nice and shiny.

 

[Neal]

Neal,
I understand what you mean. I can see no harm it has done to your tortoise, if it has been used regularly for years, but what benefit has it? No, it does not SHOW that it caused any damage; it also doesn't show any benefit...It looks like a normal, pretty leopard tortoise. Nothing more. There is slight pyramiding, so obviously it had little to no effect to "hydrate" the shell, or "trap in" moisture. There is none I can see.
I have continually illustrated the POSSIBLE risks...I can't say I've seen it in person. But many of the ingredients pose a possible risk....And the nature of the product. Just because any harm hasn't been observed doesn't mean it isn't there.

Yes, some pyramiding exists, but this tortoise is not grossly pyramided as you would have seen in other leopards, mind you, I am still of the mindset that some pyramiding does occur naturally in leopards...another debate for another thread.

Just because no obvious benefit has been identified (yet) does not mean that benefits do not exist when using the product. You haven't illustrated or provided examples of the possible risks, you have only stated them...which again goes back to my request for something more substantial.

---

No, it does not SHOW that it caused any damage;

That was the point...the only point. You stated that there are potential risks by using the product, I have shown you an example where it didn't as well as provide information on my experience with the product. While not conclusive, I would consider it a little more substantial than any argument to the contrary that has been made here.

 

[RedfootsRule]

Neal,
I didn't say she was grossly pyramided. But if this vita-shell "traps in moisture" so much, then why is there still pyramiding? And no, pyramiding is not natural in any tortoise...It is caused by dry scutes exerting force on the underlying bones and causing it to grow deformed. Its not natural; but thats a debate for another time.
It showed no damage. No. What damage can a shell show, other then being cracked, flakey, etc? You can't SEE clogged pores...You can't. I can't SEE a heart-attack coming, but it still could. As I must repeat, just because we don't see something doesn't mean its not there....Do you see microscopic bacteria? Yet its there.

If we want PROOF that this somehow has ANY benefit, Tom needs to do an experiment like this...Since the theory of vita-shell is that it "traps in moisture" (or one of the theories), then why don't we raise a baby sulcata in a low RH of 40-50% and spray the shell and then apply vita-shell daily? Lets see the effect, and see if there is any benefit.
This got me thinking of ALDRABAMAN's tortoises...He has, what, 14 aldabras? Huge tortoises....Look at those shiny shells. I have extreme doubts he buys a pallet of vita-shell to slather them all with a week.
There are plenty of shiny, beautiful, HEALTHY shells that have never used vita-shell. There is your proof...Then there are a few WAXY, SHINY shells that aesthetically appeal the owner, yet have no benefit...

 

[Tortus]

Watson, thats a very good example. I'm not exactly sure how well it applies to our shelled companions, but it is a good example never-the-less.

A very good example of what? It's common knowledge that oil can accelerate the tanning/burning process on skin. That has nothing to do with a tortoise shell. If your actual body temperature raises, that's due to the heat of the sun/burn/dehydration and you're on the verge of heat stroke. Again I've taken the temp under the light and it doesn't raise with the addition of argan, so the example of oil on human skin is not relevant.

But this conversation is about vita shell so I'll just watch the outcome.

 

[Neal]

As I must repeat, just because we don't see something doesn't mean its not there....Do you see microscopic bacteria? Yet its there.

Your logic doesn't make sense here. If you say this when no case of bacteria or disease has been linked to the product, how can you then say that it has no benefit as a matter of fact?

What is wrong with proof? If someone is going to say something is bad, when others have used it without any "bad" experiences...then saying that we just haven't seen anything yet, or something bad is happening that we can't see...I want proof. I for one am not asking for proof. I just need a little something more than you saying it does not provide any benefit without any support.

Again, no one is saying that Vitashell is the only way to get a tortoises shell shiny. The argument here is that you said it doesn't provide any benefit and is harmful, I think it may provide benefits and is not harmful... show me something!!!!!

 

[RedfootsRule]

[/quote]

Your logic doesn't make sense here. If you say this when no case of bacteria or disease has been linked to the product, how can you then say that it has no benefit as a matter of fact?

What is wrong with proof? If someone is going to say something is bad, when others have used it without any "bad" experiences...then saying that we just haven't seen anything yet, or something bad is happening that we can't see...I want proof.

Again, no one is saying that Vitashell is the only way to get a tortoises shell shiny. The argument here is that you said it doesn't provide any benefit and is harmful, I think it may provide benefits and is not harmful... show me something!!!!!
[/quote]

I said no case of shell-rot or fungus has been linked to the product; it does not mean the shell-rot or fungus wasn't a direct or indirect result of the usage of the product. That is exactly the point I was trying to get across.....This would mean it can cause harm. And there is no examples of any benefit...I can't understand what your point is there. The two have nothing to do with each other....
Nothings wrong with proof? Have I in any way asserted that? No. I said I would love to see any possible proof of it having any benefit; likewise, I would love to see proof of the opposite.
Neal, show me benefit! Come, show it to me. Can you? No. There is no example in your picture of vita-shell having any benefit to the tortoise (however, as I said, the look of the tortoises' shell does not necessarily display what effect there is)...It has a regular, typical leopard shell, with slight pyramiding. There is no displayed benefit of the usage of the product...I said it doesn't provide any benefits, because none of the ingredients would have any benefit to the shell; I believe it to likely be the opposite. As I've illustrated, there are many possible harms. Yet, you have in no way been able to show me any possible benefit the ingredients have...Please, show me a positive effect the wax has on the keratin. (Note: that is a positive effect to the KERATIN and the tortoises' SHELL. Not a positive effect because it pleases the owners eye.)

I have illustrated the possible risk the petroleum wax and lanolin could pose to the pores in a tortoises' scute. Please, show me some way the ingredients will actually benefit the shell, keratin, and living tissue.

---

Watson, thats a very good example. I'm not exactly sure how well it applies to our shelled companions, but it is a good example never-the-less.

A very good example of what? It's common knowledge that oil can accelerate the tanning/burning process on skin. That has nothing to do with a tortoise shell. If your actual body temperature raises, that's due to the heat of the sun/burn/dehydration and you're on the verge of heat stroke. Again I've taken the temp under the light and it doesn't raise with the addition of argan, so the example of oil on human skin is not relevant.

But this conversation is about vita shell so I'll just watch the outcome.

I acknowledged that I'm not sure how it applies to our shelled companions...However, it MAY in this sense...The effect the oil has on humans' skin is an insulating one. This MAY or MAY NOT have the same effect on keratin; in one way I believe it would have the same exact effect of insulation, but at the same time I'm not sure. The temp of what? How did you take the internal temperature of the tortoise? The carapace temperature has little to nothing to do with it...If you have a method of taking the internal temperature of a tortoise, please share it with me.

 

[Neal]

And there is no examples of any benefit...I can't understand what your point is there. The two have nothing to do with each other....
[/quote]

But, it has everything to do with this debate here...right? My point is that you said it does not provide any benefit...if you are going to say that, I want some support. That is my point....as I have said a few times now.

Neal, show me benefit! Come, show it to me. Can you? No. There is no example in your picture of vita-shell having any benefit to the tortoise

Lol, I'll show that to you when you can show me that it causes harm. How about that buddy? You're making an argument here where there is none. I have said in the first post, I don't have anything useful for that debate...and there is no useful counter argument.

---

There is no example in your picture of vita-shell having any benefit to the tortoise
[/quote]

See post 47...again. That was not the intent of showing the picture...

 

[RedfootsRule]

And there is no examples of any benefit...I can't understand what your point is there. The two have nothing to do with each other....

But, it has everything to do with this debate...right? My point is that you said it does not provide any benefit...if you are going to say that, I want some support. That is my point....as I have said a few times now.

Neal, show me benefit! Come, show it to me. Can you? No. There is no example in your picture of vita-shell having any benefit to the tortoise

Lol, I'll show that to you when you can show me that it causes harm. How about that buddy? You're making an argument here where there is none. I have said in the first post, I don't have anything useful for that debate...and there is no useful counter argument.
[/quote]

How am I supposed to "show you evidence" that you want, exactly? The tortoises' shell is a normal, slightly pyramided shell. Nothing more healthy than usual about it...What am I supposed to do, Neal? The shell is the same as others, there is no displayed benefits....How am I supposed to "support" how it has no benefit, besides the fact that there is none shown? I don't understand what you expect me to do....
Well, if I can find some pictures of the scutes of two tortoises (same species, raised with same diet, same housing, except one using vita-shell and the other none) under a microscope, I may be able to show you the harm (or benefit that your determined exists)...Until that, I can only go off of speculation (based on research) of the effect the ingredients has on the keratin, living tissue, etc. There is nothing else I can do, Neal....I can tell you what harmful effect it can have on the keratin in the scutes; unfortunately, until I found these photos I'm looking for, I can't show you what you want here. I CAN illustrate to you how there may be a possible harmful effect vita-shell has on the scutes...Thats all I can do. I don't have access to the proof your looking for. However, I'm convinced you would likely deny and discredit any evidence to the contrary, since your mind is clearly made up it is beneficial because it pleases the vanity of the owner....

 

[Neal]

How am I supposed to "show you evidence" that you want, exactly? The tortoises' shell is a normal, slightly pyramided shell. Nothing more healthy than usual about it...What am I supposed to do, Neal? The shell is the same as others, there is no displayed benefits....How am I supposed to "support" how it has no benefit, besides the fact that there is none shown? I don't understand what you expect me to do....

One more time, you said that this product does not have any benefit.period. You're words there. I am not saying either or. I am asking for support since you are so confident in your answer. Why did you make such a statement if you can't support it with anything other than speculation?

I'm not asking for support using my picture. Your statement was made before I posted the picture.

---

However, I'm convinced you would likely deny and discredit any evidence to the contrary, since your mind is clearly made up it is beneficial because it pleases the vanity of the owner....

Why would you make such a statement? It's about at the end of the debate when insults begin to be thrown around. If you have nothing constructive to add to your arguments about Vitashell, please direct all insults to me via PM.

It's not how your statement is intended, it's how it is received...

 

[RedfootsRule]

How am I supposed to "show you evidence" that you want, exactly? The tortoises' shell is a normal, slightly pyramided shell. Nothing more healthy than usual about it...What am I supposed to do, Neal? The shell is the same as others, there is no displayed benefits....How am I supposed to "support" how it has no benefit, besides the fact that there is none shown? I don't understand what you expect me to do....

One more time, you said that this product does not have any benefit.period. You're words there. I am not saying either or. I am asking for support since you are so confident in your answer. Why did you make such a statement if you can't support it.

Neal,
I can show it has no benefit in your picture. Your picture of a leopard tortoise is a normal tortoise....Not shiny, or appearing more healthy. Its a regular leopard tortoise, with slightly pyramided scutes.
I can support it in the fact that there has NEVER been any evidence to support ANY benefit it could have! There is not even any speculation you can present, based on research, of a positive effect the ingredients in the product could have on keratin. However, I can present numerous examples of harmful effects it could have to the porous keratin in the scutes....Clogging the pores with wax. Possibly interfering with thermo-regulation. Trapping in anaerobic bacteria that causes shell-rot and shell fungus. These are my examples. You have no leg to stand on in this sense, other then to demand I show you some sort of evidence that is has no benefit, which isn't really possible, without having what I stated before. But once again, I can show you many ways the ingredients can have a negative effect on the keratin in the scutes.
You can show me no information to the contrary; your method here is to continually argue because I can present no evidence that it has no benefit...Which, other then comparing a vita-shell tortoise to another, which can be done with google and your picture, there is no way to do.

Neal, the conclusion you draw from my statement is irrelevant. No, it is NOT about how its wrongly received by you, its how it is meant. No matter what people wish to say, using the product because you like your tortoise to be shiny would be defined as vanity (I guess a mere few use it with the wrongful assumption its beneficial, however)...I mean it in no insulting way. I used it as a word to capture the meaning...Whether you wish to believe it or not, I'm not throwing any insults. Based on past experiences in this thread, I would believe that you would deny it because its not the answer you want...

 

[Neal]

I can show it has no benefit in your picture.

How does this show that there is no benefit?

---

Neal, the conclusion you draw from my statement is irrelevant. No, it is NOT about how its wrongly received by you, its how it is meant.

If it's not relevant then why did you make it? You're wrong, it is not how it is meant. I don't know what you're thinking when you wrote it. All I can do is read it.

---

And when did I say I like my tortoises shell shinny?

 

[RedfootsRule]

Neal,
I'm done going round and circles on this....Clearly you can't understand it. I'm not going to continually answer your question for you to reply with another question. The picture shows no benefit.
You took the statement as a personal attack. You didn't think through what it could have meant...It was quite easy to grasp my meaning.
All of this is irrelevant to the debate. Please present some kind of now information, other then to continually demand I present evidence that it DOESN'T do benefit, instead of yourself trying to present evidence of how the ingredients of this product DO have benefits. Thats what you should be focusing on.

 

[Neal]

If anyone could provide constructive arguments to this topic, I am open to hearing them.

As genuine as I can say, I am an open minded person and will consider all forms of evidence. I don't have my mind made up on ANYTHING. Previous debates and other discussions should illustrate that.

I just want to learn...if someone says something that is contrary to what I have experienced. I want to dig in to that. I have not ignored anything here, I have just not dismissed my own personal experience for someone else's speculations. There's a difference there.

 

[RedfootsRule]

Excuse me if I draw the incorrect conclusion, but your statement sounds like it is to say that mine was not a construction argument...

You have not in any way considered the possible harmful effects I have illustrated....You have several times demonstrated your mind is made up that its not harmful and is beneficial, yet you can create no speculation on HOW it is beneficial. You haven't tried to "dig in" to what I've said from the beginning; you've continually denied it and demanded I present evidence that it doesn't have benefit...

 

[Yvonne G]

Please, don't use any kind of shell coatings...Never. Ever. Period. Completely unneeded and potentially very harmful. A tortoises shell is made up of thousands of pores. The shell has to breathe; some of the "waxes" on the market can clog those pores. While I've heard nothing to horrible about VitaShell (yet) it is still unneeded and has a potential to cause underlying harm we can't see....Spray the shell with water if you want a photoshoot. Shiny the natural way.

The alpha-keratin and beta-keratin of a tortoise' shell are very absorbent...When wet, they swell and absorb the water. Something tells me it isn't good in any way to clog it up with anything other then water (or other natural substances). The argan oil Karley is using is most likely fine, and some other oils are rather harmless. But wax? Never.

This is your very first post in this thread. This is what started all the argument.

You unequivocally state that using the product can be very harmful. THIS is what we'd like for you to prove. Please show us ONE tortoise that has been harmed by using the product.

And, incidentally, if you'll look at MY post, you'll see that I'm NOT in favor of using topicals on tortoises' shells.

Also, Please show me some proof that tortoises shells have pores. I don't believe this.