28 Sick Tortoises please help, Bumps under Neck

[Montana Pearce]

What were you going to do with 28 sulcatas? I can't imagine how much food, land and poop cleanup that is needed for that many.

Let us know who you bought it from, I'm sure he knows what he is selling...

Hey Ghazan,

I have always been passionate about tortoises, especially sulcatas and have had them for several years. The seller offered me a discounted rate if I were to purchase them all and and planning on buying a property large enough to take care of them when they grow older. Currently have a room dedicated for them and a designated side of the yard where only the tortoises are able to access and go out for sun for approximately 4 hours a day depending on the temperature.

 

[Montana Pearce]

One of the reasons I believe some people don't want to expose the seller is because the seller has convinced the buyer that "he sold him healthy babies and it must be the buyer's fault." The buyer feels he is personally responsible somehow as a result of inexperience. You can feel this poor buyers doubts about his husbandry, even in his initial question. I can understand having doubts and fearing the ramification of making a false accusation. This buyer doesn't have the experience we all have had learning about this disease and isn't as sure about this diagnosis as we are.

Thank you Gijoux for the input,

I have had experience raising sulcata tortoises, and I have not had this problem occur. I believe I did as much as I could right for the tortoises, but don't want to accuse a seller without all information gathered. I have brought the sickest tortoises to several vets, and they are saying that it is from the breeder. They prescribed antibiotics, and as well gave them subcutaneous fluids. One of the tortoises passed away today, and we are considering taking it to the University to get a biopsy study done. We had a vet do a culture, but from the post that I'm reading they can be inconclusive and it might be beneficial to have a biopsy done.

 

[Montana Pearce]

This is pure speculation, but it looks to me as though this buyer probably bought some albinos and some hets hoping to begin producing a lot of albinos down the road.

Like you, I am wondering if he actually understood how large these tortoises will get and how much space and food they will require in just a couple of years or so. The four I had ate me out of house and home after they reached adult size. Mine were kept in CO and CT, so had to be indoors for the winters and the food expenses for them were very high in those winter months.

Hey zovick,

Thank you for your time and responding regarding my situation. I understand the tortoises needs, and it has always been my dream to be surrounded by nature and tortoises. I bought more tortoises than I was originally planning on getting because I was offered a discounted price. I understand how big the tortoises will get, and I'm in the process of buying a house to support those needs with a lot of land for them to graze on while having their space.

 

[Montana Pearce]

Has it been determined that it IS the yellow bump disease?

The vet took two cultures, and I am supposed to know the results this week or next week, but they have not been concluded yet. It has not been concluded that it is yellow bump disease at this time

 

[Montana Pearce]

In my opinion, just from reading all the previous threads on the yellow bump disease, you have done nothing wrong. It's all on the seller. It's bad news for the tortoise industry that this seller doesn't want to listen and admit there's something wrong with his babies. More people are going to buy these tortoises and the disease will spread far and wide. Once you get the determination from your vet, don't protect the seller. When people ask you who you got the babies from, tell them.

Did you give your vet the name of the disease (Austwickia Chelonae)?

Yes I did give the vets that I saw the name of the disease, and they said that the tortoises were some of the sickest that they have ever seen, but they would need a biopsy to determine it

 

[wellington]

Thank you Gijoux for the input,

I have had experience raising sulcata tortoises, and I have not had this problem occur. I believe I did as much as I could right for the tortoises, but don't want to accuse a seller without all information gathered. I have brought the sickest tortoises to several vets, and they are saying that it is from the breeder. They prescribed antibiotics, and as well gave them subcutaneous fluids. One of the tortoises passed away today, and we are considering taking it to the University to get a biopsy study done. We had a vet do a culture, but from the post that I'm reading they can be inconclusive and it might be beneficial to have a biopsy done.

I can't help you with the desease. I am so sorry this has happened to you. What I can help with is document everything and get vets to put in writing all findings and opinions. If nothing else, all the proof you can get in writing to back you up, that it's not from anything you did, might help to get the breeder to either do something for you and hopefully get them to stop selling their sick babies.
We can't make you divulge the breeders name. However, if they keep selling to people that have no clue about the desease, they could be putting a death sentence on a lot of innocent tortoises. You should plaster the breeders name on this forum, faunaclassifieds.com and every other place out there where tortoises are sold.
Good luck and again, I am so very sorry.

 

[mastershake]

if you are willing the lab we use at usf has our ongoing study of this and you can send them in i can give you the form and they have been working on this exact thing for well over a year for us now. a lot of labs will in the end send the specimen out to them anyway since they have experience with this where most do not. they can perform the necropsy for you if you would like their info or i can set it up if you would like to use them

 

[mastershake]

The vet took two cultures, and I am supposed to know the results this week or next week, but they have not been concluded yet. It has not been concluded that it is yellow bump disease at this time

remember keep in mind this when tested and cultured usually is not definitive for the bacteria until the full testing / necropsy is done. we have seen this happen first hand. austwickia can present as other things until the animal itself is tested / organs / bones / muscle / cartilage etc etc etc if this is aw it can be found in all those places or just one of them. again i am very happy to discuss it with you im messages if you would like. aw will cause necrosis internally of all or one or more of those. its a terrible way to die honestly. as said above i am happy to set that up for you.

 

[zovick]

Hey zovick,

Thank you for your time and responding regarding my situation. I understand the tortoises needs, and it has always been my dream to be surrounded by nature and tortoises. I bought more tortoises than I was originally planning on getting because I was offered a discounted price. I understand how big the tortoises will get, and I'm in the process of buying a house to support those needs with a lot of land for them to graze on while having their space.

You will need about 12-15 acres or more to comfortably house 28 adult sulcatas. I am not overly certain that you realize that an adult sulcata weighs over 100 lbs. Some males even get over 250 lbs. After Galapagos and Aldabra Tortoises, sulcatas are the next largest tortoises in the world.

I had 2.2 adults and over 3 acres of land and still found that they were too much work when they got to be around 85 to 100 lbs each. I put them out on breeding loan to a zoo to lighten my workload.

Note that back when I had them, there were probably less than 6 of them in the entire country. How times have changed! My 2.2 were the only two breeding pairs in the US and zoos were very interested in getting their hands on any available specimens of the species. Those 2.2 of mine produced the first CBB sulcatas in the US back in 1978-79.

 

[zovick]

Yes please, message me of the vet in LA and I would like to get in contact with them

@Montana Pearce - I sent the vet info to you via a conversation message yesterday but have not heard anything from you indicating that you saw the message. I also called Dr. Proenca to let her know that you would very likely be contacting her.

Did you see the message I sent you or not? Please advise.

 

[Montana Pearce]

@Montana Pearce - I sent the vet info to you via a conversation message yesterday but have not heard anything from you indicating that you saw the message. I also called Dr. Proenca to let her know that you would very likely be contacting her.

Did you see the message I sent you or not? Please advise.

Yes, information received, thank you very much.

 

[Montana Pearce]

You will need about 12-15 acres or more to comfortably house 28 adult sulcatas. I am not overly certain that you realize that an adult sulcata weighs over 100 lbs. Some males even get over 250 lbs. After Galapagos and Aldabra Tortoises, sulcatas are the next largest tortoises in the world.

I had 2.2 adults and over 3 acres of land and still found that they were too much work when they got to be around 85 to 100 lbs each. I put them out on breeding loan to a zoo to lighten my workload.

Note that back when I had them, there were probably less than 6 of them in the entire country. How times have changed! My 2.2 were the only two breeding pairs in the US and zoos were very interested in getting their hands on any available specimens of the species. Those 2.2 of mine produced the first CBB sulcatas in the US back in 1978-79.

Thank you for the input,

When the tortoises get to the size you are talking about, they will be around 10-15 years old. I have planned accordingly to the timeframe, however my major concern I did think about is depending on if the tortoises were fighting or not I might require additional land. I do plan on buying a property with a couple acres and am going to start on one with an acre while they are young, then purchase a property that is developed specifically for their needs. I enjoy gardening and taking care of the tortoises so my plan is to naturally incorporate plants that they enjoy. 12-15 acres seems excessive as I was basing my expectations off of breeders' such as Kamp Kennan and his habitats that he has built for his sulcata tortoises.

 

[Montana Pearce]

I can't help you with the desease. I am so sorry this has happened to you. What I can help with is document everything and get vets to put in writing all findings and opinions. If nothing else, all the proof you can get in writing to back you up, that it's not from anything you did, might help to get the breeder to either do something for you and hopefully get them to stop selling their sick babies.
We can't make you divulge the breeders name. However, if they keep selling to people that have no clue about the desease, they could be putting a death sentence on a lot of innocent tortoises. You should plaster the breeders name on this forum, faunaclassifieds.com and every other place out there where tortoises are sold.
Good luck and again, I am so very sorry.

The breeders name who sold me the tortoises is Zandieh Hassan.

 

[mastershake]

The breeders name who sold me the tortoises is Zandieh Hassan.

then yes im going to tell you its prob austwickia. ill go as far as saying 99.9%. thats exactly the person i was thinking it was and its 100% confirmed he has sold animals with this in fact we had 3 of them here which came from him, one of which is the necropsy report i posted in this yellow bump forum. ill be honest that is almost for sure what you are dealing with. and remember there is nothing that is 100% effective we have done tons of testing. in fact that one tortoise is what started us here on this journey to do all the testing and figure out what was going around all over the usa. we have also tested other from him ivory's included who tested positive. many resellers who bought from him lost many animals. one in new mexico bought a whole bunch from someone who was supposedly a breeder but turned out they were not they were buying his animals and reselling them they euthanized a whole bunch of them i think almost 80 of them or so.

also no offense but if he is claiming he knows nothing about it, he does. he knew last year when he was told by people and prior to that by some sellers as early as feb - march 2020.

 

[Toddrickfl1]

then yes im going to tell you its prob austwickia. ill go as far as saying 99.9%. thats exactly the person i was thinking it was and its 100% confirmed he has sold animals with this in fact we had 3 of them here which came from him, one of which is the necropsy report i posted in this yellow bump forum. ill be honest that is almost for sure what you are dealing with. and remember there is nothing that is 100% effective we have done tons of testing. in fact that one tortoise is what started us here on this journey to do all the testing and figure out what was going around all over the usa. we have also tested other from him ivory's included who tested positive. many resellers who bought from him lost many animals. one in new mexico bought a whole bunch from someone who was supposedly a breeder but turned out they were not they were buying his animals and reselling them they euthanized a whole bunch of them i think almost 80 of them or so.

also no offense but if he is claiming he knows nothing about it, he does. he knew last year when he was told by people and prior to that by some sellers as early as feb - march 2020.

I can confirm this. I know breeders who have received animals with Austwickia from him also.

 

[wellington]

then yes im going to tell you its prob austwickia. ill go as far as saying 99.9%. thats exactly the person i was thinking it was and its 100% confirmed he has sold animals with this in fact we had 3 of them here which came from him, one of which is the necropsy report i posted in this yellow bump forum. ill be honest that is almost for sure what you are dealing with. and remember there is nothing that is 100% effective we have done tons of testing. in fact that one tortoise is what started us here on this journey to do all the testing and figure out what was going around all over the usa. we have also tested other from him ivory's included who tested positive. many resellers who bought from him lost many animals. one in new mexico bought a whole bunch from someone who was supposedly a breeder but turned out they were not they were buying his animals and reselling them they euthanized a whole bunch of them i think almost 80 of them or so.

also no offense but if he is claiming he knows nothing about it, he does. he knew last year when he was told by people and prior to that by some sellers as early as feb - march 2020.

Is there no way to stop this seller? Some agency that could do something?
His name needs to be plastered every place anyone would look for tortoises.
Where is he located? The only one I found was a dentist in AZ.

 

[mastershake]

a lot of people are looking into all that. up till now sadly no. there is a lot to it all. problem is he sells in bulk. and he sells cheap. MANY people will buy a bunch and then resell them as their own or claim they are ones they hatched. this is the biggest issue.

 

[Toddrickfl1]

Is there no way to stop this seller? Some agency that could do something?
His name needs to be plastered every place anyone would look for tortoises.
Where is he located? The only one I found was a dentist in AZ.

Apparently, he's selling them here on the forum.

 

[mastershake]

not that ive seen where is he doing that? the people here know the situation i would be highly surprised if so.

 

[wellington]

a lot of people are looking into all that. up till now sadly no. there is a lot to it all. problem is he sells in bulk. and he sells cheap. MANY people will buy a bunch and then resell them as their own or claim they are ones they hatched. this is the biggest issue.

This is so very sad that sellers knowingly sell with this desease.
This could have a long lasting affect on owning/buying/selling tortoises let alone the the hundreds/thousands that could get it and spread it.