2 torts in the same enlcosure

[huntevans20]

Hello. I have a redfoot and a Leopard tortoise. They’re both about 2 years of age and have never had any health concerns or any issues whatsoever. I have always housed them separately but i am looking to consolidate some space for a little bit until i can build a full enclosure for them. They’re the same exact size and weight dang near. I was wondering what the problems of them living together would be. The enclosure would be plenty big for them both. They don’t seem to mind eachother when i have them outdoors together. What’re the possible downsides to this

 

[Thomas tortoise]

Hello. I have a redfoot and a Leopard tortoise. They’re both about 2 years of age and have never had any health concerns or any issues whatsoever. I have always housed them separately but i am looking to consolidate some space for a little bit until i can build a full enclosure for them. They’re the same exact size and weight dang near. I was wondering what the problems of them living together would be. The enclosure would be plenty big for them both. They don’t seem to mind eachother when i have them outdoors together. What’re the possible downsides to this

I was wondering about that too! Why cant we keep two different species together? Well I'll call some experts to tell us why! @Tom @Lyn W

 

[Lyn W]

I was wondering about that too! Why cant we keep two different species together? Well I'll call some experts to tell us why! @Tom @Lyn W

I'm certainly no expert and Tom and other more experienced members could probably explain it much better than I, but put simply, you shouldn't house 2 different species together because they carry different pathogens which doesn't affect them or their own species but could make one from another species ill.
The reason it isn't advisable to keep 2 torts together, whether they are same species, siblings, males, females or one of each, is because tort are territorial, solitary creatures so it is very stressful for them to share spaces with another. That stress can make them prone to illnesses.
One usually becomes dominant and will bully the other. This starts with subtle behaviour like staring, following, being too close and mounting - often mistaken for affection but is one tort trying to make the other leave. It can involve hogging the food and best basking spot etc.
It eventually become more aggressive with barging trying to tip the other over, and biting which can result on serious injury or death. A miserable life for both. They may be OK in a very large space where they can avoid each other.
I only have one tort so no personal experience of this, but there are plenty of threads from people who have tried and seen the bullying and its effect on their torts themselves. Apparently groups of the same species work better than pairs.
There may be exceptions to this but finding out could be very stressful for the torts so it's not something I would risk.

 

[Yvonne G]

The two species require completely different environments. The leopard, from Africa, a drier more open space and the redfoot, from the South American rain forest, a more busily planted, humid area. Besides that, these two species evolved on two different continents. The symbiotic microorganisms they live with also evolved with them. Adding these microorganisms to a tortoise that didn't evolve with them could be deadly to the tortoise.

 

[huntevans20]

The two species require completely different environments. The leopard, from Africa, a drier more open space and the redfoot, from the South American rain forest, a more busily planted, humid area. Besides that, these two species evolved on two different continents. The symbiotic microorganisms they live with also evolved with them. Adding these microorganisms to a tortoise that didn't evolve with them could be deadly to the tortoise.

I understand all that and it makes sense to me. But to that I would ask, how could you say the tortoise is “from” South America or Africa. These animals are captive born and raised. They never had the initial introduction to the microorganisms found in there natural environments. They were introduced to the microorganisms of the enclosures they were raised in. If we follow this guideline then I was born with organisms from Norway in me, even though I have never been there. It’s just where my ancestors are from. Genetics are one thing, but organisms from somewhere else are where I get very confused. Also how can we explain places like Kamp Kenan, or zoos across America, that keep multi species enclosures, or many many many torts ones the same area.

 

[Yvonne G]

Well, maybe I'm wrong, but I just assumed the microorganisms were passed through the egg from the mother to the baby.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Take a read of this short article, it describes how microbes can be vertically transmitted from mother to offspring. This article pertains to lizards, but ”the magic” transfer off mother‘s microbes to offspring occurs via the eggshell membrane & cloaca during egg laying.

Vertically transmitted microbiome protects eggs from fungal infection and egg failure - PubMed

Overall, our results indicate that female S. virgatus lizards transfer beneficial microbes from their cloaca onto their eggs during oviposition, and that these microbes reduce fungal colonization and infection of eggs during incubation and increase female fitness. Cloacal transfer of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Tom]

I understand all that and it makes sense to me. But to that I would ask, how could you say the tortoise is “from” South America or Africa. These animals are captive born and raised. They never had the initial introduction to the microorganisms found in there natural environments. They were introduced to the microorganisms of the enclosures they were raised in. If we follow this guideline then I was born with organisms from Norway in me, even though I have never been there. It’s just where my ancestors are from. Genetics are one thing, but organisms from somewhere else are where I get very confused. Also how can we explain places like Kamp Kenan, or zoos across America, that keep multi species enclosures, or many many many torts ones the same area.

You know how some breeds of dogs are more susceptible to certain dogs disease than others? Its like that. Or like people. To people get covid and one has no symptoms at all, while the other dies, or anywhere in between these two extremes.

Here another way to look at it: If an asymptomatic dog carrying Parvo virus poops on the sidewalk and the owner cleans it up and then walks away, that virus will remain transmittable in that spot for up to 9 months, and some say longer. Rain, snow, and burning summer heat have no effect on it. If a puppy walks by and sniffs or licks that spot, BOOM! Parvo. Tortoises have bene imported from all over the world for decades. Most adults are housed outside and then people walk through their pens and then walk out in public. These organisms abound in the environment. They can come from any number of sources. Just like substrate flies. You can bake your substrate before use, and you are still going to get substrate flies.

Did you know that females of most species leave poop in or near the nest for babies to "seed" their GI tracts upon hatching?

Yet more: Behaviorally, these species speak different languages. They shouldn't be mixed for this reason alone.

Preventing hybridization is yet another reason.

Needing different living conditions is one more.

Eating totally different diets. How will you leave food out for them daily? Which one is going to be eating the wrong foods?

Also, tortoises should NEVER live in pairs.

They should never be outside together either. They shouldn't even share the same outside pen at different times.

Many people argue these points and then one day, something tragic will happen, and they will argue no more. Don't be THAT guy. Don't learn this lesson the hard way. Keep species separate.

 

[huntevans20]

You know how some breeds of dogs are more susceptible to certain dogs disease than others? Its like that. Or like people. To people get covid and one has no symptoms at all, while the other dies, or anywhere in between these two extremes.

Here another way to look at it: If an asymptomatic dog carrying Parvo virus poops on the sidewalk and the owner cleans it up and then walks away, that virus will remain transmittable in that spot for up to 9 months, and some say longer. Rain, snow, and burning summer heat have no effect on it. If a puppy walks by and sniffs or licks that spot, BOOM! Parvo. Tortoises have bene imported from all over the world for decades. Most adults are housed outside and then people walk through their pens and then walk out in public. These organisms abound in the environment. They can come from any number of sources. Just like substrate flies. You can bake your substrate before use, and you are still going to get substrate flies.

Did you know that females of most species leave poop in or near the nest for babies to "seed" their GI tracts upon hatching?

Yet more: Behaviorally, these species speak different languages. They shouldn't be mixed for this reason alone.

Preventing hybridization is yet another reason.

Needing different living conditions is one more.

Eating totally different diets. How will you leave food out for them daily? Which one is going to be eating the wrong foods?

Also, tortoises should NEVER live in pairs.

They should never be outside together either. They shouldn't even share the same outside pen at different times.

Many people argue these points and then one day, something tragic will happen, and they will argue no more. Don't be THAT guy. Don't learn this lesson the hard way. Keep species separate.

I completely understand. I really wasn’t trying to be rude in my comment, it’s just something i couldn’t understand. Thank you all for clarifying.

 

[Tom]

I completely understand. I really wasn’t trying to be rude in my comment, it’s just something i couldn’t understand. Thank you all for clarifying.

I didn't take it as rude at all. I read it as someone asking a genuine question about why to do, or not do, a thing with tortoises. I hope that we answered your question in a satisfactory way, and that you will keep these two very different species in their own enclosures.

 

[huntevans20]

I didn't take it as rude at all. I read it as someone asking a genuine question about why to do, or not do, a thing with tortoises. I hope that we answered your question in a satisfactory way, and that you will keep these two very different species in their own enclosures.

They are most defintely going to be in their own enclosures!

 

[Yvonne G]

Another thing to think about - because tortoise metabolism is so slow they take a long time to show symptoms of something wrong. The tortoise may sicken and die months, maybe even years after having contact with a different species, and the light bulb may never go off over the keeper's head.