Tortoise Supply.Com

[janiedough]

thank you kimber lee for your thoughtful response.

I also want to apologize for cursing. It wasn't aimed at anyone. I curse like a sailor in real life and it's hard for me to not type it when I am not only passionate but typing fast.

 

[dreadyA]

Hey, i'm too $^@%@!# to even follow along with this thread.


Hey, i think tortoise supply had a great deal during mothers day

 

[PeanutbuttER]

Come on people - really - I dare you to give me a good reason as to why they shouldn't put these warnings on their website.

"Because others don't"
"Because they don't have to"
Lame.

---

and I just want to say if the thread is closed - that's bull corn because I have not personally attacked anyone. If anything - all of you are giving me a headache saying the same thing and not giving good reasons or arguments - especially from most of you who don't own or know about sulcatas.

---

Doesn't your argument also degenerate to "Because they should"? The point is moot. There are many answers and many valid reasons available to you here and elsewhere on the internet.

I don't breed sulcatas, I don't own sulcatas, but I have owned and cared for protected animals in the past. In my opinion, the sulcata problem is only really big to tortoise keepers. Before I got tortoises I had no idea sulcatas existed let alone there was any "problem" of overbreeding with any of them. I was however aware of RES being overproduced. Aren't RES in a worse situation than sulcatas?

If you were a falconer for instance you would likely be concerned with irresponsible breeding of peregrine and gyrfalcons. But when you take a step back and look at this globally, the "problem" is not nearly as big as it seems. As tortoise keepers I'd even say we're all in the minority as far as pet owners go which is proof enough to me that this is likely a smaller problem than it may appear.

*side note, I'll bet tortoise supply is getting a boost on the number of people hitting up the site and the majority are pleased with what they see. Tyler- at some point I'd like to get some cypress from you.

Free publicity - woot!

 

[Jacqui]

I also want to apologize for cursing. It wasn't aimed at anyone. I curse like a sailor in real life and it's hard for me to not type it when I am not only passionate but typing fast.

I rarely swear in real life, but I do have a word or two that are used by me. Even I have to work hard at times to keep things worded in PG ways, so I understand.

I may not agree with you on many of the things you have said, but I do think there is no reason to close this thread. I think it's interesting hearing all the comments from folks.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

"What does bother me is that this supplier sponsors this forum (so he seems to care and be educated) and yet does not put forth a smaller bit of effort to put the proper warnings."

If you felt it was a 'smaller bit of effort' then why couldn't YOU put forth that 'small bit of effort' to contact him with your concerns?? Rather than insulting him on a 'public' forum janiedough? Ever heard the saying 'you'll get more with honey than vinegar'.....try it sometime.

I put this here to be debated - to be discussed. To ask why were they allowed to advertise on the board when they were like this.

Then they came on and said he was a sponsor and wasn't one of the bad guys, etc.

If he's not - then he can put more info.

---

My sister has been involved in turtle and tortoise rescue for over 30 years and when I injured myself in 2003 and started volunteering at her rescue there were many homeless Sulcata. I am also friends with a woman who runs a rescue in New York state and there as with Yvonne's were many homeless Sulcata. Zoo's wouldn't take them anymore neither would any other animal exhibit like a zoo. That is not the case anymore. With my traveling coast to coast I had the opportunity to see many of these places and then they were overrun with Sulcata, that is not the case anymore. Many tortoise people got together and did something about the over population of Sulcata. I know first hand that rescues are NOT overrun with Sulcata anymore. The ability to place them in homes opened up thanks to the work of many tortoise people coast to coast. I challenge anyone to find a rescue that can't find homes for Sulcata.
I am the keeper of an 80 pound Sulcata. He is only 11 years old. I cannot say that he hasn't caused some trouble for me, but with the help of some friends my yard was changed around and he is now set up in a situation that is safer for him and nicer for me. Bob is a being that is so full of personality he makes me laugh out loud. He follows me around as I go about my chores ever looking for that strawberry he knows I have. When I get down to pull weeds he climbs up in my lap and sniffs my face all over, then finds that pocket with the ever elusive strawberry. I push him off of me and run across the grass with him chasing me right at my heels. I would hate the thought of never having the chance to keep this wonderful animal. You should see the crowds he draws when I take him to sit on Santa's lap. Yes, I do that. And I use that time to talk to the people about Sulcata and how to keep them and just how there used to be so many homeless. I took him to get microchipped and met DoctorCousmought there. I used that crowd as another opportunity to educate the people about Sulcata. I use every chance I get to take Bob out in the public and talk to the crowds he draws about keeping Sulcata. There are many keepers like me doing what I do and that is one reason or hundreds why there aren't so many homeless Sulcata anymore. Because a lot of people just like me educated a group of people about Sulcata.
I would hate the thought that I wouldn't have been able to keep Bob because some law or some person didn't understand and robbed me of the enjoyment that is King Robert III

Thank you Maggie.

But do you not agree that suppliers/breeders need to be more specific and warn people more when they are selling sulcatas?

---

In a perfect world maybe. But this is not a perfect world and Tyler is a businessman, so it doesn't make sense, even to me, that when a couple is standing there holding that cute little hatchling for Tyler to say..."and in a few years he will be knocking holes in your sheetrock". He wants to sell the animal. I would hope that he gives a care sheet made specifically for Sulcata and I hope he tells the people to do their research. My specific desire would be that he makes damn sure that they know how to care for the hatchling. I would really like to see less hatchlings dying, and a care sheet for Sulcata hatchlings would really do it for me...

 

[chadk]

Here in western WA there is not a sulcata crisis. I am involved with a well known rescue and have seen only a few come through in the last year. If an adult female came through, I might take it in, but have not found one yet. I also check CL weekly and see continuous "wanted" ads for sulcatas, but rarely any sulcatas available. Those that are available have pretty high costs associated with them.

The first one I got for free but I had to pay for the tank and supplies. Poor thing was neglected, but doing great now. The other 2 were totally free and I had to jump fast to get them. I also had to do a good job of convincing them I'd be able to provide a good home. Both (seperate instances) were well taken care of and well loved, but the owners were moving out of state to apartments. So in this area, I've been looking hard for over a year, and have seen maybe 6 to 8 available between CL and the rescue. There are a few in the local petstores now and then as well. Usually priced very high. But what is clear to me is that in this area at least, there is clearly no sulcata crisis.

 

[reptylefreek]

SULCATAS ARE NOT THE SECOND LARGEST UNDER GALOPS! people say this to me all the time "sulcatas are like the largest tortoise in the world and they get like really really big, like 200lbs". please look at the other posts that have been posted on this subject. it seems to me like you dont encounter smart people on a day to day basis. This forum is packed full of people who are smart enough to care for sulcatas and give them a great life. i understand you rescued a sulcata and you feel like you did the right thing, but if you dont think they should be kept as pets then you should part with him now before you realize he is the best "pet" you'll ever have. I too look on CL all the time to look for these "unwanted" sulcatas, not one to be found. On top of everything you have said, you have to realize you are telling a third of this forum that they are wrong in owning what they do. Whether you believe it or not, people have owned pets since the begining of time... and its probably in the last couple hundred years that people have actually been improving animals quality of life. And lastly I will agree that is the BEST caresheet I have seen on a sulcata from someone who is selling.

 

[fifthdawn]

Although I disagree with a lot of the way you've defended your arguments Janie, I have agree on the point that there should be warnings on the potential size and care sulcata's need. Although there are no legal obligations (I could be wrong, not a law major), I feel there should be a moral ogligation to post this information. From what I've seen, big reptiles such as sulcatas, iguanas, etc, are generally the cheapest on the market because of their potential size and that price attracts new reptile hobbyist. This increases the risk of neglect as they get bigger and I feel that we shouldn't just focus on short term harm (when sulcatas are still small) but the long term potential harm for the animal's well being.

Of all your arguments, the one that stood out the most to me is you saying goats or cows are meant to be eatten. This is very subjective. All animals should be treated as ends in themselves, as individual agents. In some countries, cows are holy animals, and in other countries, tortoises are raised and farmed as food. I don't think sulcatas should get any special treatment. As people have mentioned before, other animals such as dogs, cats, RES, etc, are much more in need of help and awareness.

 

[TylerStewart]

We are talking about this supplier. did you go to their website? do you feel they have a substantial warning/information about the needs of the sulcatas?

Sulcatas are not dangerous or OVERLY difficult until they get older. The difficult part is when they get too big to put in aquariums or indoors.

Then people don't know what to do with them.

So a redfoot can be in an aquarium its whole life? How about a leopard? The eventual needs of a sulcata are not much different than any other tortoise, really. What do large sulcatas need that is much more difficult than what a large leopard needs? Large redfoot? I would think a large redfoot's needs would be greater than a large sulcatas needs in every category besides maybe space. The diet and water requirements make them (in my opinion) more difficult for people to meet the needs than a sulcata that is happy grazing on grass its whole life.

Like reptylefreek said (and many others already know), sulcatas are not the second largest, and there are occasional giants in all species, just like a 200 pound sulcata would be an occasional giant (not the norm). There are massive yellowfoots out there... Massive leopards. So should anyone seling a yellowfoot have a big red flag saying that they will get to be 150 pounds, since sometime in the past, maybe one has? You never answered my question about the Home Depot space heater bursting into flames, either. Should they have a big red flag on them telling you not to buy it because one of them in the past has caused a fire (which is much more serious than a big tortoise).

If any of you has ever called us and asked about a sulcata, you would have gotten the verbal warning that "you need to know what you're getting yourself into." I challenge anyone to call us and act interested in a sulcata, and see what you are told. We tell that to people on a daily basis. Also, on the majority of the web pages for our baby tortoises (not on the one that was originally linked to, but it is on the baby sulcata one), there is a section of "our current care," telling exactly how we are keeping that tortoise at this time. I also did an extensive sulcata tortoise caresheet for ReptileChannel.com that I gave them about a month ago (not yet on their site) that addresses many of the complications that come with owning a large tortoise.

 

[gummybearpoop]

People will continue to breed sulcatas as long as there is a demand. The drawback is that tortoises live so long and by the time that the demand has receded.....there MAY be a lot of unwanted large tortoises.

The breeders I know will gladly take back unwanted animals. Many times I have offered to take unwanted animals and I will find them new homes. Snakes are given to me a lot more frequently than tortoises.

All the sulcata keepers I know.....love their sulcatas. If I had more property, I would keep 5 of them for myself. haha.

Either way Janie.... I would love to see your face when you see 60 adults. Not including the next generation breeders and 1200-2000 babies produced EACH year.

 

[Red]

I am the second half of TortoiseSupply, my hubby Tyler being the business half and I the primary care giver to our tortoises. I would love to state that I LOVE all of my tortoises. From our huge sullys to every little baby we produce. I care for all of them along with my 2 kids, 2 huge dogs, cat, iguanas, and all while being pregnant.

I stay at home taking care of our 1 yr old and answering phones for TortoiseSupply. I have many times spent over 30 mins talking to people with a problem they are having with their tortoise. Sullys or Redfoots, whatever. They often didn’t buy from us and yet there I am spending my time helping them with what they need. I happily do so because of our love for our hobby. For someone to say that we are “extorting these animals” is very upsetting to me due to the time I take to help people when there is no “big money” as you say for me in the end.

I always alarm people about the pros and cons of every type of tort we sell along with any info they need. I would love to see any other company out there take the time and effort we do to ensure the proper care of these animals.

There is no way we can assure that people will listen, but to have our name bashed due to someone not taking the time to research or simply call with a question is absurd and out of our control. We are the good guys, we make many people happy with their new family additions and help others when they need.

If this was such a huge “money maker” then I would be buying maternity clothes at Pea in the Pod instead of on sale at Old Navy. We do this for our enjoyment and others.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Red:

Welcome to the forum! Its nice to hear from Tyler's other half.

 

[chadk]

Hey, what's wrong with Old Navy???

 

[Kristina]

I am seriously frustrated.

I was majorly on the bandwagon with a signpost reading, "STOP BREEDING SULCATA!!!!"

But everything Tyler said about Leopards, Redfoots, and Yellowfoots, makes complete sense. My one female Redfoot is the size that my largest Sulcata was. What is the difference?

By the way, my goats were pets. That makes no sense. Anything can be a pet that you want to be a pet.

And as for "paddling to Africa," How the heck do you think the first Sulcata GOT to the US? I suppose they flew or something. Oh, wait.... They were yanked from the wild, that's right, I remember.

Being passionate about your stance is one thing. Downright bashing someone is another. Your language and broken record of "information" that mostly isn't even correct is not going to endear anyone to your cause.

Saying that "no one" is capable of caring for a Sulcata is plain ignorant. Yvonne, Maggie, Tom, JD, Tyler, Dean, Laura, and a BUNCH of other people on this site have large, very well cared for Sulcatas.

Get off your high horse. Just because you "rescued" a Sulcata does not make you an authority, or give you the right to dictate to others what they should and should not do. There are people on this forum with 30+ years of experience with these animals, and saying that his forum is not fulfilling it's duty of helping others because one of the sponsors and members DARES to breed Sulcata, is, well... I hate to say it, but plain DUMB.

I don't think that Sulcata should be kept in certain states. But I certainly don't want a law made against it. I don't want some fool bureaucrat that doesn't know the difference between an invasive species and a harmless exotic telling me what I can and cannot do, which is why I lobbied my butt off against HR669. I won't have YOU or anyone else for that matter telling me what I can and cannot do. I am an American and my family, friends and forefathers fought for the right for me to be free. If you want to educate the public, have at it. But doing it at the expense of someone else is just plain wrong, and low, and because of that I have absolutely no respect for what you are trying to achieve. A POLITE personal email to Tyler probably would have gotten you way farther than trying to create a public stir. You might have achieved something. Now you have just managed to anger everyone.

 

[Tom]

Old Navy? That's fancy. I go to Wal-Mart or Good-Will. You can get almost new pants for six bucks.

Hey, what's wrong with Old Navy???

 

[ehopkins12]

If anyone plays World of Warcraft...we have a term for the person that started this thread...a troll. Just trolling for attention. The best way to remedy the situation is simple...ignore the troll.

 

[Jacqui]

If anyone plays World of Warcraft...we have a term for the person that started this thread...a troll. Just trolling for attention. The best way to remedy the situation is simple...ignore the troll.

Please watch with the name calling. I debated if this term (troll) should be deleted and at this point am letting it go. However, please refrain from such tactics. (Mod Jacqui)

 

[reptylefreek]

I think you misunderstood the term. Not like the ugly troll that lives under a bridge...lol. It just describes someone who is seeking attention or just says untrue and useless things. JACQUI, look it up in the urban dictionary . I dont think this WAS a case of trolling until the person started making untrue statements just to defend themself instead of just admitting that tortsupply is doing nothing wrong.

 

[janiedough]

I was going to leave this since no one has anything else to add. It is what it is.

But I am not a troll. This was my first and only thread in the debatable section. It was not done for attention. I still feel very strongly and passionately about it.

None of you have changed my mind or made the situation right in my eyes. And I don't believe calling me a troll would be effective either.

But thanks for attacking me personally since you have nothing else to add to the argument.