Tortoise Supply.Com

[janiedough]

This caught my attention from our own For Sale section.

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-15249.html


So I went on the website to see what they had/how much it was just out of curiosity. Here is what it says:

Product Description

Common Name: Sulcata or "Spur-Thigh" Tortoise
Scientific Name: Geochelone Sulcata
Current Size: 4-5"
Average Adult Size: 22-32" (males larger)
Area of Origin: North/Central Africa

Description: Sandy beige color almost throughout their body, head and legs. Some will develop a darker "honey" color. Aggressive spikes on their front legs help them to dig and prevent being pulled out of their burrows backwards (which is nearly impossible to do). The "spurs" on their rear thighs between the tail and legs give them their "spur-thigh tortoise" name.

Habitat: Hot, dry climates. They can handle variable amounts of humidity in captivity, but naturally are from lower humidity areas. They do not hibernate, but will go through a winter slow down period during cooler weather and shortened daylengths. As adults, they can safely handle body temperatures as low as 45 degrees at night as long as they are able to heat up into the 70's during the day. Summer highs up to 120 degrees can be tolerated as long as there is a cooler, shaded retreat the tortoise can get into. Dampness is not a problem in high temperatures (a cool mud hole on a hot day), but in cooler weather the tortoises should be kept dry.

Diet: This tortoise is naturally a grazer, and will wander about nibbling on grass the majority of its natural life. In captivity, sulcata tortoises will graze on grasses as well as leafy weeds and clover (dandelions are a favorite). As babies, we focus more on feeding them a wide mix of leafy greens (spring mix), since they have a harder time eating the more tough grass. Vegetables can be added to the diet for variety, but a focus should be on leafy greens and grasses. Fruit should generally be avoided.

Adult Behavior: Adult sulcata tortoises are interactive and curious tortoises. They can be aggressive towards eachother, particularly when two similar-sized adult males are housed together. Over time (and with careful watching by the owner), they usually develop a hierarchy and smaller males will assume a submissive role. Sulcatas are not aggressive towards people. They can be damaging to their environment, digging deep burrows to stay warm or cool if no shelter is provided. Most sulcatas will eagerly come to their keepers looking for food once they are comfortable in their environments. They can get impatient in small areas, so this is not a tortoise for the keeper looking for something that doesn't need space. When an enclosure is properly built for the tortoise, they are very enjoyable animals to keep.

SERIOUSLY???

1 - no one should breed these torts as they are freaking huge and people hardly ever know how to take care of them, but tortoise supply seems to do it for loads pf profit...so nice of them.

2 - where is the part on here where it says they can live to be 100???!!! and to weight around 200lbs?!!

This ad does NOT accurately describe a Sulcata OR the issues that come from it OR proper care instructions.

I think it's terrible.

 

[chadk]

You are not making a lot of sense.

1) It has been shown time and time again that it is hard to find sulcatas for those who are looking. In some specific regions it may be easier than others, but many of us have to look hard to find any.

CBB torts help ease the pressure of WC torts. There are other breeders and sellers on our forum as well, so I'm wondering why you would single out Tort Supply??

Who are you to say who can or can't breed an animal? Are you going after Golden Retriever breeders? Poodle breeders? Snake breeders?

2) With the internet at the finger tips of most people these days (and ANYONE ordering from their website...), folks have loads and loads of sites to read up on size, weight, age, diet, etc etc. Who knows, they may even stumble upon this great site

I think your post is terrible.

 

[dmmj]

I think people should do some research before they buy a tort, just a thought.

 

[Yvonne G]

Besides what David (dmmj) said, Tortoise Supply.com is one of the good guys! AND, he sponsors the forum and is a member here.

 

[Tom]

Hi Janie. Have to disagree with you on all counts. It should be noted that I consider the owner of
http://www.tortoisesupply.com/ a friend, so you may label me biased if you wish.

I think the sulcata description is very well written, honest and accurate.

Sulcatas are certainly not the best pet for everyone, but they are an EXCELLENT pet for some people. They are no harder to take care of than a goat, pig or horse. They certainly don't belong in a tenth floor small apartment, but they are great for anyone who wants to devote a decent size backyard, or more, for them.

The 5 acre plot that I'm on once housed seventy five horses. You don't think I have enough space for a few sulcatas? I live in sunny Southern California. The climate here is fairly similar to what they have in there native area too.

Also, as Chad noted above isn't it better to buy captive bred than deplete them from the wild? There has been no reason to remove any sulcatas from the wild since the early nineties. I think that is admirable.

If you don't think they are suitable pets, then, please, don't buy one or breed them. I see no reason why everyone else can't do some research and make there own decision, as you have. Anyone who owns any animal needs to be responsible and educated about their animals needs. Please don't make the all too common mistake of lumping the few bad folks with the overwhelming majority of good folks.

 

[TylerStewart]

SERIOUSLY???

1 - no one should breed these torts as they are freaking huge and people hardly ever know how to take care of them, but tortoise supply seems to do it for loads pf profit...so nice of them.

2 - where is the part on here where it says they can live to be 100???!!! and to weight around 200lbs?!!

This ad does NOT accurately describe a Sulcata OR the issues that come from it OR proper care instructions.

I think it's terrible.

Thanks (other) guys for the responses you gave.

This is an old debate. I think they are wonderful tortoises, and so do 99% of the owners that have sulcatas. If you don't feel people should breed sulcatas, then don't buy a sulcata.

Loads of profit? I'd like to say I'm sorry, first and foremost, for working my butt off on my animals to not sell them at a loss. I enjoy the endless cage cleaning, tortoise wrestling in the dust and mud, and expenses of feeding a large colony. I mean, who needs money? Really? When you're ready, I'll forgive all that expense and send you a free tortoise. I charge the least amount of money I'm willing to part with an animal for. If it's more than you have to spend, don't buy a sulcata.

I don't say on the website that they can live to be 100 because that's a big "if" (IF they're cared for properly, IF they are in a suitable climate, IF many other things). The average, old, big sulcata tortoise does not live to 100 years old, even if cared for properly. Also, the average big, old sulcata does not get to 200 pounds. It says right on the quote you did that they can reach up to 32".... I don't have any that are 32." Maybe I should change that down to 30" or so, which is what my biggest male is. Remind me why I'm obligated to give the biggest numbers possible? It would probably help me sell them, since lots of people want a big tortoise.... Maybe you're on to something. I'll have to think that one through.

What about what you quoted from my website was inaccurate? What issues "come from it?" Few quotes from my site that you apparently overlooked: They can be damaging to their environment, digging deep burrows to stay warm or cool if no shelter is provided. They can get impatient in small areas, so this is not a tortoise for the keeper looking for something that doesn't need space. Remind me why I'm obligated to give (by your definition) "proper care instructions?" I have a page full of tortoise books for sale, if you're interested

Do yourself a favor.... Don't ever start a business. Life will be hard.

 

[janiedough]

Look I'm open to the fact I'm wrong. Which is why I put it in the Debatable Topics Area.

If Sulcatas are so hard to find, then why are rescues full of them?

Maybe they're so hard to find because people end up killing them through neglect.

To me, sulcatas are one of those species that should not be promoted as pets. I have one, I love it and take good care of it, but I know of hundreds that were sold in my town and somehow I am the only one here who still owns one...

Mine was given to me by someone who didn't take care of him.


and I live in the south where it's easy to raise these guys! Mine just lives in the backyard and eats what naturally grows here - which happens to be a lot of it's natural diet - and the temps are high, etc.


To me, if you are going to say you're one of the good guys, then you should post links warning these people about sulcata issues.

Sulcatas are not your average tortoise. They get big and live a very long time. That should be emphasized.

YES, personal responsibility is number one, but we aren't talking about something that will harm the consumer, we are talking about these little guys being bought and sold as a hobby, when they really aren't. I think they are the farthest thing from a hobby that any tort besides the Galapagos can get.

I think that TortoiseSupply should at least put more of a warning or red flag on their website warning consumer to REALLY do their research. Otherwise you ARE one of the bad guys.



And I wouldn't want to own a business that made a profit off of the exploitation of these poor animals

 

[TylerStewart]

Look I'm open to the fact I'm wrong.

Are you open to the fact that you're wrong again?

If Sulcatas are so hard to find, then why are rescues full of them?

False. They're not, and this has been talked about several times lately, and the overwhelming majority agreed that there are not large numbers in rescues looking for homes. I have repeatedly offered all over the place to take in unwanted, homeless sulcatas, and never have got a single one, including talking to the "rescues" directly.

Maybe they're so hard to find because people end up killing them through neglect.

False. If they're so hard to find, how are rescues full of them?

I know of hundreds that were sold in my town and somehow I am the only one here who still owns one...

False. Either there weren't hundreds sold in your town, or you're not the only one still with one. Doesn't matter where you are, I guarantee that's wrong.

To me, if you are going to say you're one of the good guys, then you should post links warning these people about sulcata issues.

False. I never said I was one of the good guys. Others did. If you don't like me, I think I'm ok with that. There's 3 or 4 others on this forum that don't like me either.

I think that TortoiseSupply should at least put more of a warning or red flag on their website warning consumer to REALLY do their research. Otherwise you ARE one of the bad guys.

Why should TortoiseSupply do that, and nobody else should? Am I the first person to sell sulcatas? If you don't think they should be bred (and obviously you don't), simply don't buy from the vendors selling them. Should Home Depot have a big red flag on their space heaters because there's a chance that they will burst uncontrollably into flames?

I wouldn't want to own a business that made a profit off of the exploitation of these poor animals

Exploitation because it's a sulcata? Or because I produced a tortoise? Do you think no other species are "exploited" or is it only bad because it's a sulcata? My tortoises live a good life here. I would gladly invite Fish & Wildlife, or animal cruelty officers into my places for an inspection. I think they'd leave impressed, and empty handed

 

[N2TORTS]

You are not making a lot of sense.

1) It has been shown time and time again that it is hard to find sulcatas for those who are looking. In some specific regions it may be easier than others, but many of us have to look hard to find any.

CBB torts help ease the pressure of WC torts. There are other breeders and sellers on our forum as well, so I'm wondering why you would single out Tort Supply??

Who are you to say who can or can't breed an animal? Are you going after Golden Retriever breeders? Poodle breeders? Snake breeders?

2) With the internet at the finger tips of most people these days (and ANYONE ordering from their website...), folks have loads and loads of sites to read up on size, weight, age, diet, etc etc. Who knows, they may even stumble upon this great site

I think your post is terrible.

Chad I new I liked you ! ..... WELL SAID !...
took the words right out of my mouth
JD~

 

[Tom]

Janie, I agree wholeheartedly with Tyler on this issue. Everything he said.

HOWEVER, I don't want you to feel like your are being jumped by a bunch of us and leave the forum. You are not alone in your FEELINGS about this issue. We sulcata folks have heard the sentiment you expressed before and that's why we are all so ready with the "counter-attack". In a perfect world, I would ask you to keep an open mind and consider the other side of this argument. Your initial post feels to me like an attack on my beloved animals (I said beloved animals, not "poor" animals) and an attack on my friends livelihood.

If you feel that selling, well cared for, healthy pet tortoises at a very fair price is "exploitation of poor animals", then there is really no point in further debate. You'll never agree with me and I'll never agree with that.

Are you familiar with the difference between animal welfare and animal rights? I don't mean that to sound snotty. There are a lot of people out in the world with good intentions that just don't understand the differences between, and the implications of, the two very different doctrines. The statement about profiting "off of the exploitation of these poor animals" is a very animal rightest thing to say, but if you keep pet tortoises yourself, that's very much against animal-rightist principals.

 

[janiedough]

First of all why do these tortoises NEED to be pets? They aren't pets - they are exotic wild animals that outgrow MOST owners if the owners don't kill them first.

I didn't buy mine. I rescued mine from some one who did not take care of it. Mine will live longer than me, and probably outgrow me. I'm freaking out about what to do with mine when it get's bigger and older - and it's only 8!

If you loved your torts, or if you did indeed value these torts, then you wouldn't sell them. Most people are not equipped to handle these tortoises. You are breeding them and making money off of sending them to their death.

Sure, select few people are educated and will take excellent care of these torts, but you don't require screening or anything. Just money.

You say the others don't why should you? Because some one called you "one of the good guys." To me you look the same as every other supplier looking to make a buck off of selling sulcatas. Which is why I used the word exploitation: to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage.

Sulcatas should not be pets, and should not be sold as pets. In the very least it should be limited and there should be a selection process like they do in rescues.

 

[Neal]

I have a few issues with this reply

First of all why do these tortoises NEED to be pets? They aren't pets - they are exotic wild animals that outgrow MOST owners if the owners don't kill them first.

The tortoises being bred by Tortoise Supply are not "wild" animals, they are bred for the pet industry. Doing this decreases the demand on actual wild tortoises from being taken out of the wild. To say "MOST owners" either kill their tortoises or the tortoises outgrow them is unfounded to say the least. But, if that happens it's the buyers responsibility not the sellers so I think your frustration is misguided.

I didn't buy mine. I rescued mine from some one who did not take care of it. Mine will live longer than me, and probably outgrow me. I'm freaking out about what to do with mine when it get's bigger and older - and it's only 8!

So does this mean that you yourself are not prepared for the responsibility of housing an adult sulcata? Why did you "rescue" it in the first place? Isn't that hypocritical?

If you loved your torts, or if you did indeed value these torts, then you wouldn't sell them. Most people are not equipped to handle these tortoises. You are breeding them and making money off of sending them to their death.

Again you say "most people" which is completley unfounded. There are more sulcata owners out there than you think and I would be willing to bet that the majority do take good care of them...of course that's just my opinion but I happen to know quite a few sulcata owners and can speak from experience.

Sure, select few people are educated and will take excellent care of these torts, but you don't require screening or anything. Just money.

What obligation does any business have to screen people? I'm an accountant, if I screened all of my clients I would end up with none. In the business world it makes no sense. And it isn't just money, I'm sure Tyler will tell you it's a hobby for himself and for the people he sells to, and as I stated above it decreases the demand for wild caught specimens.

You say the others don't why should you? Because some one called you "one of the good guys." To me you look the same as every other supplier looking to make a buck off of selling sulcatas. Which is why I used the word exploitation: to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage.

Sulcatas should not be pets, and should not be sold as pets. In the very least it should be limited and there should be a selection process like they do in rescues.

I completely dissagree with you that sulcatas should not be pets. I have seen many sulcatas and I'm sure any owner here will tell you they are full of as much personality as any cat or dog. They are exotic and interesting and if properly cared for can bring as much joy into someones life as any other type of pet.

I have been to a rescue here in AZ that has over 200 sulcatas. The rescue itself is breeding them and selling them, as well as selling the adults they get for free for a large profit. Do you see that as a problem? Tyler and others on this forum have offered to take in sulcatas from people who elsewise would give them to one of these rescues. There ARE homes for sulcatas, it seems the problem is that people don't do their homework and instead drop them off at a rescue because they think a rescue is a good place.

I've never met Tyler in person, but have talked with him a few times. From what I can tell he is a good guy, and I can say that based on my experience with him. If you don't think what he is doing is right or he's a "bad guy" than don't buy from him or try to figure out why he does it BEFORE you come on here and tell everyone that what he is doing is terrible.

---

Sorry for the bolding, I thought my whole response was going to be on the white background, next time I will preview. Also in my first paragraph I don't mean to sound like I'm speaking for Tortoise Supply, my statement I feel was common knowledge. It's past my bed time!

 

[BethyB1022]

Personally, I was impressed that tort supply had such a big description on their website. It was much better than the lack of description they usually have at pet stores, or even on some other websites selling torts.

Maybe we should start a new debatable thread on rescues being "full of sulcatas"?

 

[Shelly]

For every neglected sulcata out there, there are probably 100,000 neglected dogs and cats.

 

[Tom]

Good morning Janie. I was going to relate the story of the rescue in Pheonix that was over run with hundreds of poor, unwanted, homeless sulcatas. ihaveaquestion3, the original poster of that thread, already pointed out the this "rescue" was actually a collector, breeder and seller. This story has been repeated all over the country. The stories you've heard of all those thousands of unwanted, homeless sulcatas are false. Myth. Bogus. Yes there are unwanted sulcatas from time to time, but there are far more Russians, Box Turtles and Red Eared Sliders. Not to mention the unwanted mammals out there. (Good point, Shelly) The sulcata "problem" pales in comparison. Do the tortoise rescues see some sulcatas every year? Sure, but the numbers are relatively small and they get placed pretty quickly, according to the rescuers.

What I don't understand is why you are so opposed to SULCATAS as pets. There are lots of other large outdoor pets out there. There are lots of other large tortoise species out there. We just recently had a thread discussing which species grow the largest and there have been Leopards and Yellowfoot tortoises over a hundred pound too. Several other species get over 50 pounds. Is it the size? Are you opposed to goats as pets? They come from Africa too and are all now captive bred and can get over a hundred pounds. I can tell you from experience , its much easier to handle a 100 lb, tort than a 100 lb. goat. What about Vietnamese Pot Bellied Pigs? Sheep?

My wife was a vet tech for 13 years. She and I just had a conversation about this. She was relating that most of the people that came into the vet hospital with tortoises (any species) didn't know how to take care of then properly and she was starting to go down the same path as you. I asked her if it was any different for parrots, cats, fish, dogs, etc... She thought about it for a minute and said no. She admitted that animal ignorance is pretty universal. Then I asked her how many times I had been to the vet with any of my chelonians. ZERO. Her brother? My tortoise owning friend? Zero and Zero. Our other tortoise owning friends? Zero. My point was; most tortoise owners know how to take care of them properly and don't need a vet very often. Sure they can have health problems,even if you do everything right, but most of them are pretty hardy and healthy. Most of the people that end up at the vet are either ignorant and did something wrong (like me in 1979 with my box turtle) or trying to rehab one from someone else that was ignorant. (I said most, not all. So those of you that have been keeping lots of torts for many years and have been to the vet occasionally, don't get all upset. I'm just relating what my wife observed.)

So what is your reason for recommending so strongly against sulcatas as pets and railing so strongly against breeding them? Is it because they are exotic? Their size? Your perception that the tortoise keeping public is largely ignorant? Your perception that there is a huge problem with sulcata overpopulation and the rescues are overflowing with them? I'd like to understand where you are coming from and right now, I don't. I know lots of big sulcata owners and their torts are all well cared for, healthy and loved. AND not a one of them is a wild caught animal snatched from the wild in Africa.

You mentioned exploitation. Are you a strict vegan? Animal rightist? If so, then I totally understand your point of view. I don't agree with, at all, but I could understand it. For anyone who is not a strict vegan, aren't we all exploiting animals for personal gain? I certainly am.

 

[chadk]

The 'exploiting' for most of us is 'win win'. We get a great pet and the tort get's a great home. Fresh food everyday. Fresh water daily. Protection from extreme weather. Protection from predators.

In the wild, how many hatclings survive the first year?
Do you think they enjoy droughts? Floods? No food or water for long periods of time? Extreme weather extremes? Constantly trying to survive and avoid predators.

Now and then a tort will end up in the wrong hands and get stuck in 'tort hell'. A tiny glass tank with hot dogs and iceburg lettuce for water. No heat or too much heat. And eventually they get sick and die. That sucks. But now we have the internet and more and more tort owners have help right at their fingertips.

 

[DeanS]

I don't really care who breeds (and sells) as long as the individual acquiring will be responsible. That's really it in a nutshell. To me, there just can't be enough sulcatas. I'm hooked and ALWAYS will be.

 

[dmmj]

hey I like hot dogs.

 

[franeich]

If no one bred them then people would take then out if the wild and keep them as pets. I would rather see them bred and made into dog food then have them all stolen out of the wild.

 

[RichardS]

My suggestion is that the mods delete this thread. Online defamation is a grey area of the law. I wouldn't want to jeopardize tortoiseforum.org and make its owner personally liable with this type of discussion when its linked to a specific individual and their business. Just a thought.