The End Of Pyramiding

[Tom]

Extreme close up of Tuck's shell. He's just over six weeks in this pic.

This pic is literally just minutes out of the egg:

Tuck is the first of my three hatchlings, so he's the oldest by a couple of days. Weights and measurements will be coming soon.

 

[Tom]

Update: These pics are from a few days ago, just shy of the 60 day mark. I left them in their sunning cage for a couple of hours in the hot dry sun and then put them down on the dry ground for these pics. It looks as stark and dry as possible, in contrast to the usual wet photos. I wish I had photos of my adults when they were this size for comparison, but no such luck.

Here's Tulee:

Trey, the youngest, but quickly catching up in size:

Tuck, the first one to hatch:

The end:

 

[ChiKat]

Wow Tom, they all look incredible!! How exciting to see such great results
I love how rounded they are. I'm used to my Russian "pancake"

Love the picture updates; keep them coming!

 

[kbaker]

Those are great shots!!

Trey is my favorite of the three.

 

[-EJ]

Total nonsense.

AH actually gave the closest explaination to pyramiding and it does involve humidity.

This is a post from Andy Highfield at Tortoise Trust after I said that I thought Pio was smooth because of all the humidity he grew up in.
Terry,

The diet you are using is excellent and I would not expect to see poor bone development or "pyramiding" on such a regime - regardless of environmental conditions.

On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed. Let me put it this way. There are thousands of people (apparently) who believe that Adolph Hitler is still alive and was take to a secret base on the moon using flying saucers built by Nazi scientists ( ) They believe this passionately. Oh, and the moon is not airless - it has an atmosphere like Earth. NASA know this, but keep it secret so that "other countries" will not go there ( ). Everyone who disagrees is part of the great New World Order conspiracy or is simply a gullible fool. It is quite easy to get such nonsense accepted as fact, especially on the Internet where you have a lot of very vocal people spreading myths and "facts" they barely understand.

Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.

If you control growth, and ensure adequate serum (blood) D3 and trace element levels the bone will develop correctly, at an optimum density. There will be no deformity. It cannot happen.

The whole "humidity" issue is a total red herring. It is unscientific, illogical, and unfortunately, leads many people to make fatal mistakes. Sadly, the good old Internet is the perfect place for such anti-science myths to spread like a nasty disease.

Andy

 

[Tom]

Total nonsense.

AH actually gave the closest explaination to pyramiding and it does involve humidity.

This is a post from Andy Highfield at Tortoise Trust after I said that I thought Pio was smooth because of all the humidity he grew up in.
Terry,

The diet you are using is excellent and I would not expect to see poor bone development or "pyramiding" on such a regime - regardless of environmental conditions.

On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed. Let me put it this way. There are thousands of people (apparently) who believe that Adolph Hitler is still alive and was take to a secret base on the moon using flying saucers built by Nazi scientists ( ) They believe this passionately. Oh, and the moon is not airless - it has an atmosphere like Earth. NASA know this, but keep it secret so that "other countries" will not go there ( ). Everyone who disagrees is part of the great New World Order conspiracy or is simply a gullible fool. It is quite easy to get such nonsense accepted as fact, especially on the Internet where you have a lot of very vocal people spreading myths and "facts" they barely understand.

Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.

If you control growth, and ensure adequate serum (blood) D3 and trace element levels the bone will develop correctly, at an optimum density. There will be no deformity. It cannot happen.

The whole "humidity" issue is a total red herring. It is unscientific, illogical, and unfortunately, leads many people to make fatal mistakes. Sadly, the good old Internet is the perfect place for such anti-science myths to spread like a nasty disease.

Andy

What's total non-sense? AH said humidity is a red herring.

Stirring the pot today, Ed?

 

[-EJ]

Yea... totally stirring the pot...

Check out the TTs account on pyramiding. I'm willing to bet he has not changed the account... if he has he's done a disservice... it was the best account on the mechanism of pyramiding I've found to date... and it totally acknoledges moisture as a factor.

Total nonsense.

AH actually gave the closest explaination to pyramiding and it does involve humidity.

This is a post from Andy Highfield at Tortoise Trust after I said that I thought Pio was smooth because of all the humidity he grew up in.
Terry,

The diet you are using is excellent and I would not expect to see poor bone development or "pyramiding" on such a regime - regardless of environmental conditions.

On this topic of humidity affecting bone growth, there is NO serious scientific evidence for this whatsoever, and furthermore, the single piece of published "research" that those who promulgate such misinformation rely upon is deeply, deeply flawed. Let me put it this way. There are thousands of people (apparently) who believe that Adolph Hitler is still alive and was take to a secret base on the moon using flying saucers built by Nazi scientists ( ) They believe this passionately. Oh, and the moon is not airless - it has an atmosphere like Earth. NASA know this, but keep it secret so that "other countries" will not go there ( ). Everyone who disagrees is part of the great New World Order conspiracy or is simply a gullible fool. It is quite easy to get such nonsense accepted as fact, especially on the Internet where you have a lot of very vocal people spreading myths and "facts" they barely understand.

Fact: The biology of bone growth (and pathologies) is very well understood. Tortoises are no different than any other animal. The same rules apply.
Fact: Rapid growth is a key factor in all nutritionally related developmental bone pathologies.
Fact: Excess protein stimulates high growth rates.

If you control growth, and ensure adequate serum (blood) D3 and trace element levels the bone will develop correctly, at an optimum density. There will be no deformity. It cannot happen.

The whole "humidity" issue is a total red herring. It is unscientific, illogical, and unfortunately, leads many people to make fatal mistakes. Sadly, the good old Internet is the perfect place for such anti-science myths to spread like a nasty disease.

Andy

What's total non-sense? AH said humidity is a red herring.

Stirring the pot today, Ed?

 

[terryo]

Total nonsense.

AH actually gave the closest explaination to pyramiding and it does involve humidity.

So then why did he discredit my post Ed?

 

[Madkins007]

I cannot seem to locate the TT article on pyramiding- can I get a link?

Andy writes some good stuff, but I think that some people in any field of expertise get a sort of fixation on something. I know of people who have been banned from the TT forums for disagreeing with key points, like this one.

I find it interesting that Andy (as with so many others in his situation) do not seem to admit that there may be a chance they are wrong or misunderstand a situation. For example, Andy talks a lot about bone development, but with tortoises, the bones are capped by scutes- does this change the dynamics?

I also think it is interesting he mentions one study. There are at least two I know of- Fife's and Wiesner's, which deals with Sulcata (http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/humidity-pyrmiding-sulcata-tortois.pdf )

 

[Tom]

Update: These pics are from a few days ago, just shy of the 60 day mark. I left them in their sunning cage for a couple of hours in the hot dry sun and then put them down on the dry ground for these pics. It looks as stark and dry as possible, in contrast to the usual wet photos. I wish I had photos of my adults when they were this size for comparison, but no such luck.

Here's Tulee:

Trey, the youngest, but quickly catching up in size:

Tuck, the first one to hatch:

The end:

These pics got buried by some other stuff. So here they are again.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Tom you are showing evidence that the "science" world denies.. probly because they can't disprove it. Meanwhile we normal tortoise lovers will enjoy our critters.. without having to poke and probe them under some magnifying glass to see what isn't right with their meaningless theories???

The upcoming 'replies' should be rich.......

NERD
..mist'em 'til they drip...

From this - [ see egg-tooth ] -

8 months later...to this - [ compare head patterns ] -

 

[terryo]

What about Pio, Nerd. I'm still misting him until he drips, and his humid hide was always packed with moss, that he had to dig his way into. It has worked for me for three years now.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

What about Pio, Nerd. I'm still misting him until he drips, and his humid hide was always packed with moss, that he had to dig his way into. It has worked for me for three years now.

Absolutely TerryO!

Another PERFECT example.. can't deny that!

I wonder how many examples they need?

Baby "X" -

2 1/2 YEARS later -

See dates lower right?

NERD

 

[Madkins007]

I don't agree with Andy on this, and I firmly believe that humidity/misting/hydration is an important part of controlling pyramiding, but I CAN understand his take on Pio and other smooth Red-foots.

The thing is- you and NERD, and others are offering a good diet AND misting. Andy can just point at the diet part and say that the diet is the main or only reason they are smooth.

The only way we could really show him to be in error would be to have well-designed controlled study with many torts over a long time, carefully testing for the influence of protein, humidity, hydration, etc. The Wiesner study sort of does this, but with kind of a small group of animals over a kind of short time. We would also need a good understanding of WHY humidity or misting work- what is the physiologically process going on?

We do have some good evidence on our side- Fife's and Wiesner's studies, the experiences of several people who have been doing it for a while with lots of tortoises of different species, etc. so I am certainly going to keep misting my herd- and I am going to keep feeding them as best I can, too.

 

[Yvonne G]

So, once again, Ed has been ambiguous with his post. I'm thinking he meant that Andy's response to Terry's post is total nonsense, because elsewhere the TT has mentioned that humidity is necessary for non-pyramiding. Not sure, but I THINK that's what he meant.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Yes Mark..

Andy can just point at the diet part and say that the diet is the main or only reason they are smooth.

.. because they can't admit that they are wrong! They have to prove to us that "misting" often daily and providing a hide where the carapace comes in direct contact with humidity is NOT the reason for 'smooth-growth'. But no.. they won't do that..
because they may find they have been wrong all these years.

Andy Highfield suggests 'animal protein' as part of a redfoot diet.. so how can they say that a diet including too much protein causes rapid growth and abnormal scute formation. Who's in denial here anyway? They are convinced that the "right/no protein" diet will create 'proper' growth. If that's the case.. why all the pyramided torts in captivity?

This link has been on my 'Caresheet' for how many years? -

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/feeding_redfoots.html

Pat bought all of these from me a few years back - she lives in Washingtom state -

And later these -

.. and awhile later they look like this -

And this -

You know what care regime she follows!

How many more???

NERD

{ Tom all of this is your fault }

 

[cdmay]

Keeping the humidity high in the growing tortoise's enclosure is something I have advocated for years and direct misting is a good way to achieve that result.
But I would add that high humidity in itself will not automatically result in a healthy tortoise with a wild type carapace and normal leg scutes.
It is just as important not to overfeed young tortoises and it is especially important not to overfeed with things that are far too rich in sugars and fats. More and more I find that the commercially available diets (yes, including Mazuri Tortoise Chow) will result in highly accelerated and unnatural growth--regardless of humidity--if they are fed in excess. Tortoises simply do not grow as fast in the wild as they do in captivity and this is a fact that many keepers seem to forget.
I don't know Andy Highfield nor have I read anything he has written but it could be that when he cautions against protein in the diet that he means EXCESSIVE amounts of protein. Keep in mind that even the leanest of commercially available cat or dog foods that we offer to our tortoises are probably many times higher in fats (and sugars) than any 'dead animal' protein that they scrounge up in nature. You have to keep this in mind too---it aint like there are little forest gnomes that come out at night and leave nice plates of dry cat food for wild tortoises. And dead animals don't just drop out of the trees or bushes every night for them to find either. A responsible keeper who wants his animals to live a long time (regardless of how 'nice' their shell looks) won't go nuts with these food items.
What actually causes pyramiding is most likely a combination of things with lack of humidity being the most common factor in captive animals. But I would quickly add that diet clearly plays a huge role as well.

 

[Tom]

{ Tom all of this is your fault }

All of what is my fault? Tons of pictures of smooth torts? I wish I could take the credit for "all of this"!

Nothing makes me happier than pics of smooth, round, healthy looking tortoises..., except seeing them in person everyday for the first time in 20 years of trying!!!!!!!

 

[tglazie]

I don't know, Tom. There is certainly a great deal of variability when it comes to pyramiding. I've seen some animals with pyramiding so pronounced that the central scutes appeared to sink into the center of the animal's back, giving the tortoise a compacted car appearance. Tortoises such as these often have extremely overgrown beaks due to the lack of roughage in their diets. I acquired all of my sulcatas through various individuals who had, without exception, raised their animals indoors, in tanks, without access to humid hiding areas (micro-climates), feeding them nothing but commercial tortoise food and wet kitchen produce. These animals suffered horrendous pyramiding as a result. However, following introduction to an outdoor environment with grasses for grazing with access to a grazing pen filled with various cacti, succulents, and some matured lettuce and kale, these animals' pyramiding became less pronounced, as though they were outgrowing their early developmental flaws. I think the humidity theory probably holds some weight, given that all of my animals dig constantly in order to establish an appropriate micro-climate. However, I think it is incorrect to surmise that humidity is the only factor. Without access to regular UVB, tortoises will suffer pyramiding, as well as other problems associated with D3 deficiency. Without a nutritious and varied diet that includes many high fiber grasses and succulent plants, these beasts will suffer pyramiding, as well as malformed beaks and many of the more recognizable symptoms of trace element and mineral deficiency. Without ample room for exercise and exploration, I think sulcata tortoises also can get bored and eat more as a result. I've also noticed that appetite varies from tortoise to tortoise, though sulcatas are some of the most ravenous tortoises I've ever had the pleasure of keeping. Some, however, don't know when to quit. My biggest, Pigsy, will not stop eating. He will graze an enclosure until it is a moonscape if allowed to do so. I've also had to separate him from the others given that he will greedily push the smaller tortoises to the side and hog all of the food. My second largest, Chelsea, however, is more conservative and tends to browse rather than tear away the grass by the roots. My third largest, Pete, is similar to Chelsea in that he browses the new shoots of grass rather than consuming everything in sight. However, all of the animals seem to be displaying much smoother growth than they did previously. In addition to this, they are behaving in a much livelier fashion than they did when I'd first acquired them. In short, I would have to say that there is probably not one single factor that contributes to pyramiding. Life tends to be more complicated than this, and I think the key to reducing and eliminating pyramiding is to take a multi-faceted approach. But I am interested to see what results your experimentation will yield.

T.G.

 

[Annieski]

I do believe TG's post has a great deal to offer to show the need for "balance". But it is the balance of the tortoise. In a captive situation, we strive to simulate the "wild"--- and with artificial means, it can be provided [ie, lights, substrate, weeds and grasses, hides]. What I think we fall short of is the cyclical nature of the wild enviornment. I also think that we get hung-up on "amimal protein" when in fact, there is a protein precentage in all the common greens and weeds and grasses we feed to our Tort's [in the foods section--post on Protein-- I posted a chart with the values of the most common greens offered to Tortoise]. During and just after the rainy season, is when rapid growth takes place in the wild. Tortoise are designed to "conserve", I believe in preparation for the LESS plentiful time of year[it would certainly explain why those "sailors" scooped-up so many tortoise for fresh food--and I doubt they fed them on the journey]. Our captives never have an absense of plentiful [and thus, never have a decrease of "rich greens"]. I do believe that it is all the factors that have to complete the enviornment of the tort for proper growth and optimal health.