Pyramiding in tortoises with Metabolic Bone Disease

[-EJ]

RE: pyramiding

A smooth shell does not indicate that the tortoise is healthy. This is the same line of thought that a pyramided shell does not indicate an unhealthy tortoise.

I see SO many leopard tortoises here in sac but all of them are pyraminded, what does a healthy one look like?

 

[Stephanie Logan]

RE: pyramiding

A smooth shell does not indicate that the tortoise is healthy. This is the same line of thought that a pyramided shell does not indicate an unhealthy tortoise.

So, I get that a pyramided tortoise does not necessarily have MBD. Are the conditions that lead to pyramiding similar to those that lead to MBD? Are pyramided tortoises more likely than non-pyramided tortoises to have MBD?

What are the symptoms of MBD, and what does a tortoise afflicted with MBD look like?

I saw a photo on here once of a tortoise with sort of a hunchback shell that someone said may have MBD.

I am assuming that the condition of Metabolic Bone Disease is more serious to the tortoise's health than pyramiding. How is MBD diagnosed and what, if any, are the treatments?

 

[-EJ]

RE: pyramiding

I don't think so because I believe that there are two totally different physical mechanisms involved one is the laying down of the bone and the other is the bone growing... they are not the same. You can have bone growth without calcium... this is what leads to the porous bone. The bone is constantly in flux.

I believe that it is the keratin layer that is the what causes the pyramiding because it does not allow the bone to grow out.

There is the obvious malformed shell... not necessarily pyramiding. The legs cannot support the animal. Those are the obvious.

What I like to use is a 'tap' test. I lightly tap the shell... if it sounds solid and sharp... it is good... if it sounds hollow and dull... not good.

The best way to hear the difference is to try this with a tortoise that you know has a thin shell and one that you know has a good shell. Once you hear the difference there is no mistaking it.

Keep in mind that there are different levels of MBD.

You got it in that MBD is more serious than pyramiding. If caught early and the joints have not been effected... just add calcium and D3 in whatever form.

A smooth shell does not indicate that the tortoise is healthy. This is the same line of thought that a pyramided shell does not indicate an unhealthy tortoise.

So, I get that a pyramided tortoise does not necessarily have MBD. Are the conditions that lead to pyramiding similar to those that lead to MBD? Are pyramided tortoises more likely than non-pyramided tortoises to have MBD?

What are the symptoms of MBD, and what does a tortoise afflicted with MBD look like?

I saw a photo on here once of a tortoise with sort of a hunchback shell that someone said may have MBD.

I am assuming that the condition of Metabolic Bone Disease is more serious to the tortoise's health than pyramiding. How is MBD diagnosed and what, if any, are the treatments?

 

[Stephanie Logan]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

So, would a herp vet be able to tell me if Taco has pryamiding, MBD, or both?

She is able to support herself when she walks.

She gets regular calcium supplements now, but only sporadically when she having her major bone growth phases.

What happens over the long term to a tortoise with one or both of these conditions?

 

[-EJ]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

If it's given a good environment and good nutrition... the new growth should smooth out. That looks like a tortoise that was kept too cool and dry. It doesn't look like it has MBD but I'd have to see the animal to be sure.

This is one of the biggest reasons I push Mazuri so hard... you would have to try and make the animal pyramid. Given good conditions and Mazuri alone = a perfect looking animal. I do recommend feeding some weeds and grasses but the type does not matter with the use of Mazuri.

With MBD it depends on how much damage has been done to the joints. If the tortoise is walking tall and active... there should be no problem.

The pyramiding is there to stay outside of the new growth. Again Temperature is going to be the most important factor.

If you allow the tortoise to burrow the pyramids can eventually wear down.

So, would a herp vet be able to tell me if Taco has pryamiding, MBD, or both?

She is able to support herself when she walks.

She gets regular calcium supplements now, but only sporadically when she having her major bone growth phases.

What happens over the long term to a tortoise with one or both of these conditions?

 

[Stephanie Logan]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Thank you.

 

[-EJ]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

You're welcome... hope it helped a little.

Thank you.

 

[Annieski]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Generally, equal amounts of soluble calcium and phosphorus ions are required for balance; ideally, the ratio of calcium to phosphorus should be 2:1. Too much calcium results in a phosphorus deficiency and impaired metabolic function. Too much phosphorus in the diet forms insoluble calcium phosphate which renders the calcium unusable; as the body continues to absorb the phosphorus, hypocalcemia—metabolic bone disease—results.

I re-read the very first intro I had when I knew I was taking Morty home to NJ. This is an explanation[just part] about MBD, it is from "Melissa Kaplans" writing on Chelonians. Also, from what I read about pryamiding-- I concluded that it has more to do with lack of "Natural" sunlight and perhaps foods that are too "Rich" and therefore causes too rapid growth in captive Sulcata. A hatchling in a dry desert enviornment may not find food readily or be able to provide itself with enough moisture relative to size but there is no escaping the sun in the desert. Just my thoughts.

 

[-EJ]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

No... idealy they ratio should be 1:1. 2:1 came about because tortoise keepers figured that plants contain a huge amount of phosphorous so they over compensated by adding more calcium.

While Malissa is a fantastic researcher and writer... her views are severely slanted. What you quoted is her opinion... which I disagree with.

Generally, equal amounts of soluble calcium and phosphorus ions are required for balance; ideally, the ratio of calcium to phosphorus should be 2:1. Too much calcium results in a phosphorus deficiency and impaired metabolic function. Too much phosphorus in the diet forms insoluble calcium phosphate which renders the calcium unusable; as the body continues to absorb the phosphorus, hypocalcemia—metabolic bone disease—results.

I re-read the very first intro I had when I knew I was taking Morty home to NJ. This is an explanation[just part] about MBD, it is from "Melissa Kaplans" writing on Chelonians. Also, from what I read about pryamiding-- I concluded that it has more to do with lack of "Natural" sunlight and perhaps foods that are too "Rich" and therefore causes too rapid growth in captive Sulcata. A hatchling in a dry desert enviornment may not find food readily or be able to provide itself with enough moisture relative to size but there is no escaping the sun in the desert. Just my thoughts.

 

[Yvonne G]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Also, if you check out the dates of her publications, you will see that none of them have been changed or updated in years.

 

[Annieski]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

I know I took this info a bit out of context, but my point in doing so was to confirm what you had said about being able to have pryamiding WITHOUT MBD. From what I've read and been told by my vet that a tortoise can survive with pryamiding and go on to have a "happy" life but that is not the case with MBD.

 

[-EJ]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Good point.

I know I took this info a bit out of context, but my point in doing so was to confirm what you had said about being able to have pryamiding WITHOUT MBD. From what I've read and been told by my vet that a tortoise can survive with pryamiding and go on to have a "happy" life but that is not the case with MBD.

 

[Annieski]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

I know I took this info a bit out of context, but my point in doing so was to confirm what you had said about being able to have pryamiding WITHOUT MBD. From what I've read and been told by my vet that a tortoise can survive with pryamiding and go on to have a "happy" life but that is not the case with MBD.

And even though years go by, basic anatomy and physiology really doesn't change. She is explaining the differences of soluable and insoluable calcium and the effects they have on the body when not in balance[which is very similar to the effects in humands as well].

 

[-EJ]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

You are totally correct.

It's still 1:1. Ca

I know I took this info a bit out of context, but my point in doing so was to confirm what you had said about being able to have pryamiding WITHOUT MBD. From what I've read and been told by my vet that a tortoise can survive with pryamiding and go on to have a "happy" life but that is not the case with MBD.

And even though years go by, basic anatomy and physiology really doesn't change. She is explaining the differences of soluable and insoluable calcium and the effects they have on the body when not in balance[which is very similar to the effects in humands as well].

 

[TortoiseMD]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

interesting, this happens because the pyramidig shell does not have enough calcium during growth to calcify the new forming bone, it is similar to osteopenia in humans.

 

[Yvonne G]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

interesting, this happens because the pyramidig shell does not have enough calcium during growth to calcify the new forming bone, it is similar to osteopenia in humans.

I notice that you have answered quite a few posts today. May we know a little bit about you?

to the forum!

 

[-EJ]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

One more time... you can have perfectly normal bone density and still have pyramiding. This is an important point that the new keeper needs to understand.

interesting, this happens because the pyramidig shell does not have enough calcium during growth to calcify the new forming bone, it is similar to osteopenia in humans.

 

[TortoiseMD]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Thank you Yvonne for welcoming me to the forum.
what would you like to know about me?
I am in southern California, have 20+ Russians and 15+ Hermanns , 6 leopard tortoises

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One more time... you can have perfectly normal bone density and still have pyramiding. This is an important point that the new keeper needs to understand.

interesting, this happens because the pyramidig shell does not have enough calcium during growth to calcify the new forming bone, it is similar to osteopenia in humans.

I doubt that you can have normal bone denisty while still having pyramiding, bone density has to do with calcium content of the bone (like osteoporosis, you diagnose it by measuring bone denisty and seeing that it is lower than normal bone)
in pyramiding as the posted pictures show, the new bone tissue is not of normal structure so it's density is less than a normal bone (or shell), that's why you see gaps and air pockets in the pyramiding shell ( so it's density is much less than a normal shell).

 

[Yvonne G]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Ed's point is that the pictures are NOT of a merely pyramided shell. They show also MBD, which your answer applies to also. A shell with only pyramiding would not show the porous bone underneath, only stacked scutes.

You have quite a nice tortoise family. I'd love to see some pictures of your animals and their habitats.

 

[TortoiseMD]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

thanks for the clarification, I will try to post some pictures in the next few days.