The End Of Pyramiding

[kbaker]

This confuses things. After trying to understand Danny's point of view, it does not apply after seeing these pictures. It appears to me that the scutes grow out at the edges and not as a new layer from under the whole scute. The under lying bone is what is pyramiding and the scute is just a layer over top. So what causes the bone to shape like that? And it appears the bones was firm so can it be MBD?

Or is there different types of pyramiding and they just look the same from the outside?

 

[Balboa]

I've been puzzling over that too. Aquatics grow entire new scutes and drop the old, and can still pyramid apparently, which does imply its in the bone, but they are indeed continuously adding an entire new scute, not just the edges.

I'm kind of thinking the scute on tortoises is just constantly getting a little thicker, but each new layer is so thin it doesn't add up quickly.

As Mark was wondering, where's the chicken, where's the egg. The constantly growing bone could fill a gap if present (and there's enough calcium around) and then that deformed bone could deform new scute material trying to slide over it.

Seems like it would lead to overbuilding of the shell, which could overly tax the calcium utilization capabilities of the tortoise, leading to MBD, hence the possible link.

Seems to me to illustrate why shell hydration is so important. Just like your fingernail gets more pliant after doing the dishes, a well hydrated scute will be more able to adjust shape as needed, and the non calcified material between scute and calcified bone will be better able to compensate as well. Let it dry and die, and I imagine it will lead to a more rapid calcification process.

 

[Annieski]

This confuses things. After trying to understand Danny's point of view, it does not apply after seeing these pictures. It appears to me that the scutes grow out at the edges and not as a new layer from under the whole scute. The under lying bone is what is pyramiding and the scute is just a layer over top. So what causes the bone to shape like that? And it appears the bones was firm so can it be MBD?

Or is there different types of pyramiding and they just look the same from the outside?

I don't know if this will help--but let's see. A Tortoises' Housing[shell And skeleton] are supposed to be ridgid enough to protect internal organs. Our skeleton[comprised of 206 bones] does the same, with variations because of how we move[bending,walking,twisting,turning,etc].Our skull[just the cranium] is actually 8 bones that over time[growth maturity] are fused together to from our heads[to protect the brain].The process takes many years. At birth,because there needs to be a way for the "bones" to "grow-with" the rest of the body---there are "FONTANELS". These are membrane-filled spaces that act as a "seam-like" point for the 8 cranial bones to have contact. As "new bone cells" form and "growth" takes place----the "seams" will narrow and become less membranous. These 8 cranial bones are the only bones in our bodies that actually FUSE and this make the multi-boned cranium, an immovable "joint". When all is said and done, those "seams" are referred to as sutures and will always be present. Tortoises' ribs and spine are fused for the "domed-like" shape it must have to protect internal organs. The appearance of their ribs is just different than ours. The lines you see in the picture are the "fontanels/sutures" if you will, because of this "fusion". If you look carefully. the scutes actually, overlap the sutures---because--this hard, keratinized "skin" needs to "waterproof" the "underlying" bone for protection.

 

[Madkins007]

Granted.. I'm too simple-minded to do all this tech. stuff and besides.. what difference does it make anyway??? - there are a number of us that keep redfoot tortoises, etc. that grow them smooth when they are misted regularly; and they become bumpy when they aren't..... all other things the same. AND it didn't take 10 years and 100's of them to observe this ( in some cases ).. even tho' I've seen 100's over 5 years. [ I can show pic doc. of at least 5 for 5 years on a regular basis ]

Again these observations are too simple for some - and some things we'll never have answers to anyway. Some are even so concerned that they keep changing their names and who belongs to who's family tree...... mine just want a warm place to live and something good to eat and drink!

NERD

You know, Terry, if the 'why' does not interest you and you don't care about the underlying mechanics and biology, you don't have to read this or respond to it. (But how can you be a real 'nerd' if you are not fascinated by the science?)

I also don't really care about your comments that misting solves everything for you. You live in a state with 2 kinds of Box Turtles and more amphibian and reptile species than most of the US or Canada. You have an enviable natural climate and can have your older guys outside for over 1/2 of the year.

On the other hand, for Tom and others who live in places other than moderate temperate forest zones, misting does not seem to be enough of an answer. Tom is raising his almost like water turtles and is still unhappy with the shell development. Apparently your advice would be to mist them more?

You can say, as you have before, that your climate has nothing to do with it or is not that special, but that is obviously untrue. Local climate is a HUGE factor in this stuff- that is why so many of the biggest breeders are in Florida, etc.

So, to answer your question- "What difference does it make anyway?"- the better we can understand the mechanisms and physiology of this, the better the rest of us can deal with it and the closer we get to understanding their overall needs.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

WOW, this is a great thread. As most of you know I am new here. I can say that we soak our aldabra hatchlings daily and they only eat natural weeds, grass, cactus, and a small amount of good quality lettuce. They are kept outside in the pure sunshine. The growth is slow and very smooth. -Great job Tom-

 

[Tom]

Their shells look great, but their noses are still pointy... Haha. Just funnin'. Thank you for the support. Its still a work in progress.

 

[kbaker]

This confuses things. After trying to understand Danny's point of view, it does not apply after seeing these pictures. It appears to me that the scutes grow out at the edges and not as a new layer from under the whole scute. The under lying bone is what is pyramiding and the scute is just a layer over top. So what causes the bone to shape like that? And it appears the bones was firm so can it be MBD?

Or is there different types of pyramiding and they just look the same from the outside?

I don't know if this will help--but let's see. A Tortoises' Housing[shell And skeleton] are supposed to be ridgid enough to protect internal organs. Our skeleton[comprised of 206 bones] does the same, with variations because of how we move[bending,walking,twisting,turning,etc].Our skull[just the cranium] is actually 8 bones that over time[growth maturity] are fused together to from our heads[to protect the brain].The process takes many years. At birth,because there needs to be a way for the "bones" to "grow-with" the rest of the body---there are "FONTANELS". These are membrane-filled spaces that act as a "seam-like" point for the 8 cranial bones to have contact. As "new bone cells" form and "growth" takes place----the "seams" will narrow and become less membranous. These 8 cranial bones are the only bones in our bodies that actually FUSE and this make the multi-boned cranium, an immovable "joint". When all is said and done, those "seams" are referred to as sutures and will always be present. Tortoises' ribs and spine are fused for the "domed-like" shape it must have to protect internal organs. The appearance of their ribs is just different than ours. The lines you see in the picture are the "fontanels/sutures" if you will, because of this "fusion". If you look carefully. the scutes actually, overlap the sutures---because--this hard, keratinized "skin" needs to "waterproof" the "underlying" bone for protection.

Thanks for the reply, but let me clearify what I meant...
I probably should have left the quote I was replying to in the post. I was replying to 'Posted by Madkins007 - 11-12-2010 01:23 AM.
Annieski, that was a great comparison of a tortoise shell and skull. I never thought to compare them, but at the same time understood that a shell was structured and grew the same way. I did not want to miss quote Danny too badly, but if I remember correctly, he takes the stand that external moister does not affects internal bone; and that the scutes thicken with layers which is what pyramiding is if the layers are too thick with gaps.
From what I saw in the pictures, the scutes do not have layers across the whole scute and the pyramiding is structured at the bone level and not the scute level.
I pull a few conclusions from this whether fact or theory:
1) What comes first (chicken or the egg)? Does a hatchling start growing first or start laying down a harder bone structure? To me, if the bone was hard, the shell would not bow under each scute.
2) Is the bone bowing or is it spongy at that time (MBD)? Bone should be dense and harden. If its spongy, is it expanding to what we see in the pictures?
3) If the bone is bowing, something has to put pressure on it to bow. I never believed over eating was that big of a factor, but what if the hatchling over eats and is bloated/fat. It pushes outward like one of those gel balls in a net.
4) Is there more to it with the scutes? What if the outer edge of the scutes is new/live material and it is stronger than the middle of the scute? That would be the 'net' part. Until the bone hardens, this happens.
5) What if the moister (spay "til they drip) has the effect of strengthening the middle scute long enough to have the bone harden?
6) What if it works like this...the hatchling has a soft shell at first and it needs to harden. The scute keeps the bone somewhat in check and the bone affects how the scute grows. If the bone hardens, it does not bow or if MBD, the bone does not thicken. Then the bone does not push out at the scutes. The scute continues to grow, but the scute's new layers are laid 'side by side' at the edges. Wonderful! If there is any push from the bone, the new scute growth can't grow 'side by side' and the prevoius growth is pushed away from the new scute growth.

From what I found on human nails, one of the BIG tips for strong healthy nails is to keep them moisterized. Another is a healthy intake of protein and vitamins. These all seem like no brainers, but with the chicken or egg way, one thing might be stepping on the other. The shell has to harden before feeding a lot and at the same time, the hatchling has to eat a lot of good things to get the shell to harden. I think this is why some tortoises pyramid at different rates, too.

I think the next step would be to cut into that shell to see if is bowed or thickened.

I am sure I missed some of my thoughts here and what I did say might have gaps, but it should be enough for everyone to think about.

 

[Annieski]

This confuses things. After trying to understand Danny's point of view, it does not apply after seeing these pictures. It appears to me that the scutes grow out at the edges and not as a new layer from under the whole scute. The under lying bone is what is pyramiding and the scute is just a layer over top. So what causes the bone to shape like that? And it appears the bones was firm so can it be MBD?

Or is there different types of pyramiding and they just look the same from the outside?

I don't know if this will help--but let's see. A Tortoises' Housing[shell And skeleton] are supposed to be ridgid enough to protect internal organs. Our skeleton[comprised of 206 bones] does the same, with variations because of how we move[bending,walking,twisting,turning,etc].Our skull[just the cranium] is actually 8 bones that over time[growth maturity] are fused together to from our heads[to protect the brain].The process takes many years. At birth,because there needs to be a way for the "bones" to "grow-with" the rest of the body---there are "FONTANELS". These are membrane-filled spaces that act as a "seam-like" point for the 8 cranial bones to have contact. As "new bone cells" form and "growth" takes place----the "seams" will narrow and become less membranous. These 8 cranial bones are the only bones in our bodies that actually FUSE and this make the multi-boned cranium, an immovable "joint". When all is said and done, those "seams" are referred to as sutures and will always be present. Tortoises' ribs and spine are fused for the "domed-like" shape it must have to protect internal organs. The appearance of their ribs is just different than ours. The lines you see in the picture are the "fontanels/sutures" if you will, because of this "fusion". If you look carefully. the scutes actually, overlap the sutures---because--this hard, keratinized "skin" needs to "waterproof" the "underlying" bone for protection.

Thanks for the reply, but let me clearify what I meant...
I probably should have left the quote I was replying to in the post. I was replying to 'Posted by Madkins007 - 11-12-2010 01:23 AM.
Annieski, that was a great comparison of a tortoise shell and skull. I never thought to compare them, but at the same time understood that a shell was structured and grew the same way. I did not want to miss quote Danny too badly, but if I remember correctly, he takes the stand that external moister does not affects internal bone; and that the scutes thicken with layers which is what pyramiding is if the layers are too thick with gaps.
From what I saw in the pictures, the scutes do not have layers across the whole scute and the pyramiding is structured at the bone level and not the scute level.
I pull a few conclusions from this whether fact or theory:
1) What comes first (chicken or the egg)? Does a hatchling start growing first or start laying down a harder bone structure? To me, if the bone was hard, the shell would not bow under each scute.
2) Is the bone bowing or is it spongy at that time (MBD)? Bone should be dense and harden. If its spongy, is it expanding to what we see in the pictures?
3) If the bone is bowing, something has to put pressure on it to bow. I never believed over eating was that big of a factor, but what if the hatchling over eats and is bloated/fat. It pushes outward like one of those gel balls in a net.
4) Is there more to it with the scutes? What if the outer edge of the scutes is new/live material and it is stronger than the middle of the scute? That would be the 'net' part. Until the bone hardens, this happens.
5) What if the moister (spay "til they drip) has the effect of strengthening the middle scute long enough to have the bone harden?
6) What if it works like this...the hatchling has a soft shell at first and it needs to harden. The scute keeps the bone somewhat in check and the bone affects how the scute grows. If the bone hardens, it does not bow or if MBD, the bone does not thicken. Then the bone does not push out at the scutes. The scute continues to grow, but the scute's new layers are laid 'side by side' at the edges. Wonderful! If there is any push from the bone, the new scute growth can't grow 'side by side' and the prevoius growth is pushed away from the new scute growth.

From what I found on human nails, one of the BIG tips for strong healthy nails is to keep them moisterized. Another is a healthy intake of protein and vitamins. These all seem like no brainers, but with the chicken or egg way, one thing might be stepping on the other. The shell has to harden before feeding a lot and at the same time, the hatchling has to eat a lot of good things to get the shell to harden. I think this is why some tortoises pyramid at different rates, too.

I think the next step would be to cut into that shell to see if is bowed or thickened.

I am sure I missed some of my thoughts here and what I did say might have gaps, but it should be enough for everyone to think about.

I still think is't important to look at scutes["skin"] and shell["fused bones"] as 2 separate entities or organs/systems. I think the growth , of each, happens simultaneously but at different speeds to accomadate the type of enviornment the creature is exposed to. Our fingernails grow out from a "nailbed"[ where it is attached to the cuticle]--once the nail passes from that point,and "hits the air" so to speak, those "keratinized" cells become hardened to be able to protect the living tissue BELOW. The best analogy I can refer to is if you injured your fingernail and it had to come off/or fell off--that finger "tissue" is now exposed and you must wait[sometimes 6/8 mos.] for the nail to process down to the end. My understanding is, that the scutes have a CENTERED "nailbed" that grows out in concentrical rings. So the original "square-ish" portion of the scutes is where there is a direct blood supply for growth to coinside with the developing bone below. When a baby is born, the finger/to nails are soft and pliable for several months--even though the purpose of the nail is the same. Tortoises don't have that luxury of time. I also believe there needs to be a more cyclical time period to allow for periods of "rest" so that all development can happen[maturation of digestive,excretory,reproductive,etc.] at a steady pace. Maybe pyramiding happens because the bones cannot keep up with the scutes? JMO

 

[Balboa]

Annie,
Are the bones truly fused? Most of the information I've been able to find indicates they don't truly fuse to allow some limited flexibility. Of course these were likely oversimplified, outdated, and refering to Chelonians as a whole, maybe torts are different? I just want to clarify my understanding.

I'm curious about this "central nailbed" and how it would work. That implies a complete new scute essentially sliding out from the center, somehow expanding in diameter as it goes? Or does the "new scute" start there and grow on its leading edge until it finally gets to air.

Either of those scenarios DOES imply a need for some kind of "season" to trigger the time to stop adding and start again, which is think what you were saying. If the timing is wrong there could be a huge lag where the bone continues to try to grow and there's no new scute available to cover it.

Or does the nailbed start sending out a new scute automatically every so often and it wouldn't matter, and more than one scute layer could be growing at a time?

In any of those cases it shows a need for continuous hydration to prevent early hardening.

For my limited knowledge of how bones grow, the outermost layer is always softish material, basically cartilage waiting to be calcified, is this the case?

All of this is starting to make me think those olive oil users were on to something. There are no pores to worry about, this is fingernail,horn,scale type material, or am I wrong in thinking that? I had thought that there were pores to worry about at the joints of the Scutes possibly, but now I'm doubting that. So what's wrong with keeping a shell healthy with natural products? I put nasty chemicals on my dogs and cats to protect their skin from fleas.

 

[kbaker]

This confuses things. After trying to understand Danny's point of view, it does not apply after seeing these pictures. It appears to me that the scutes grow out at the edges and not as a new layer from under the whole scute. The under lying bone is what is pyramiding and the scute is just a layer over top. So what causes the bone to shape like that? And it appears the bones was firm so can it be MBD?

Or is there different types of pyramiding and they just look the same from the outside?

I don't know if this will help--but let's see. A Tortoises' Housing[shell And skeleton] are supposed to be ridgid enough to protect internal organs. Our skeleton[comprised of 206 bones] does the same, with variations because of how we move[bending,walking,twisting,turning,etc].Our skull[just the cranium] is actually 8 bones that over time[growth maturity] are fused together to from our heads[to protect the brain].The process takes many years. At birth,because there needs to be a way for the "bones" to "grow-with" the rest of the body---there are "FONTANELS". These are membrane-filled spaces that act as a "seam-like" point for the 8 cranial bones to have contact. As "new bone cells" form and "growth" takes place----the "seams" will narrow and become less membranous. These 8 cranial bones are the only bones in our bodies that actually FUSE and this make the multi-boned cranium, an immovable "joint". When all is said and done, those "seams" are referred to as sutures and will always be present. Tortoises' ribs and spine are fused for the "domed-like" shape it must have to protect internal organs. The appearance of their ribs is just different than ours. The lines you see in the picture are the "fontanels/sutures" if you will, because of this "fusion". If you look carefully. the scutes actually, overlap the sutures---because--this hard, keratinized "skin" needs to "waterproof" the "underlying" bone for protection.

Thanks for the reply, but let me clearify what I meant...
I probably should have left the quote I was replying to in the post. I was replying to 'Posted by Madkins007 - 11-12-2010 01:23 AM.
Annieski, that was a great comparison of a tortoise shell and skull. I never thought to compare them, but at the same time understood that a shell was structured and grew the same way. I did not want to miss quote Danny too badly, but if I remember correctly, he takes the stand that external moister does not affects internal bone; and that the scutes thicken with layers which is what pyramiding is if the layers are too thick with gaps.
From what I saw in the pictures, the scutes do not have layers across the whole scute and the pyramiding is structured at the bone level and not the scute level.
I pull a few conclusions from this whether fact or theory:
1) What comes first (chicken or the egg)? Does a hatchling start growing first or start laying down a harder bone structure? To me, if the bone was hard, the shell would not bow under each scute.
2) Is the bone bowing or is it spongy at that time (MBD)? Bone should be dense and harden. If its spongy, is it expanding to what we see in the pictures?
3) If the bone is bowing, something has to put pressure on it to bow. I never believed over eating was that big of a factor, but what if the hatchling over eats and is bloated/fat. It pushes outward like one of those gel balls in a net.
4) Is there more to it with the scutes? What if the outer edge of the scutes is new/live material and it is stronger than the middle of the scute? That would be the 'net' part. Until the bone hardens, this happens.
5) What if the moister (spay "til they drip) has the effect of strengthening the middle scute long enough to have the bone harden?
6) What if it works like this...the hatchling has a soft shell at first and it needs to harden. The scute keeps the bone somewhat in check and the bone affects how the scute grows. If the bone hardens, it does not bow or if MBD, the bone does not thicken. Then the bone does not push out at the scutes. The scute continues to grow, but the scute's new layers are laid 'side by side' at the edges. Wonderful! If there is any push from the bone, the new scute growth can't grow 'side by side' and the prevoius growth is pushed away from the new scute growth.

From what I found on human nails, one of the BIG tips for strong healthy nails is to keep them moisterized. Another is a healthy intake of protein and vitamins. These all seem like no brainers, but with the chicken or egg way, one thing might be stepping on the other. The shell has to harden before feeding a lot and at the same time, the hatchling has to eat a lot of good things to get the shell to harden. I think this is why some tortoises pyramid at different rates, too.

I think the next step would be to cut into that shell to see if is bowed or thickened.

I am sure I missed some of my thoughts here and what I did say might have gaps, but it should be enough for everyone to think about.

I still think is't important to look at scutes["skin"] and shell["fused bones"] as 2 separate entities or organs/systems. I think the growth , of each, happens simultaneously but at different speeds to accomadate the type of enviornment the creature is exposed to. Our fingernails grow out from a "nailbed"[ where it is attached to the cuticle]--once the nail passes from that point,and "hits the air" so to speak, those "keratinized" cells become hardened to be able to protect the living tissue BELOW. The best analogy I can refer to is if you injured your fingernail and it had to come off/or fell off--that finger "tissue" is now exposed and you must wait[sometimes 6/8 mos.] for the nail to process down to the end. My understanding is, that the scutes have a CENTERED "nailbed" that grows out in concentrical rings. So the original "square-ish" portion of the scutes is where there is a direct blood supply for growth to coinside with the developing bone below. When a baby is born, the finger/to nails are soft and pliable for several months--even though the purpose of the nail is the same. Tortoises don't have that luxury of time. I also believe there needs to be a more cyclical time period to allow for periods of "rest" so that all development can happen[maturation of digestive,excretory,reproductive,etc.] at a steady pace. Maybe pyramiding happens because the bones cannot keep up with the scutes? JMO

I don't think you can separate the two. They work with each other whether directly or indirectly.

Keep in mind two facts...
1) From the pictures, the permanent structure damage of pyramiding is in the bone of the shell.
2) External hydration reduces pyramiding by a large percentage.

What's with the seasons thing? The tortoise may adapt to stop and start growth because of it environment, but it means nothing with pyramiding from what I can tell. Whether the tortoise is forced through seasons or not, it won't prevent or cause pyramiding.

 

[Annieski]

Annie,
Are the bones truly fused? Most of the information I've been able to find indicates they don't truly fuse to allow some limited flexibility. Of course these were likely oversimplified, outdated, and refering to Chelonians as a whole, maybe torts are different? I just want to clarify my understanding.

I'm curious about this "central nailbed" and how it would work. That implies a complete new scute essentially sliding out from the center, somehow expanding in diameter as it goes? Or does the "new scute" start there and grow on its leading edge until it finally gets to air.

Either of those scenarios DOES imply a need for some kind of "season" to trigger the time to stop adding and start again, which is think what you were saying. If the timing is wrong there could be a huge lag where the bone continues to try to grow and there's no new scute available to cover it.

Or does the nailbed start sending out a new scute automatically every so often and it wouldn't matter, and more than one scute layer could be growing at a time?

In any of those cases it shows a need for continuous hydration to prevent early hardening.

For my limited knowledge of how bones grow, the outermost layer is always softish material, basically cartilage waiting to be calcified, is this the case?

All of this is starting to make me think those olive oil users were on to something. There are no pores to worry about, this is fingernail,horn,scale type material, or am I wrong in thinking that? I had thought that there were pores to worry about at the joints of the Scutes possibly, but now I'm doubting that. So what's wrong with keeping a shell healthy with natural products? I put nasty chemicals on my dogs and cats to protect their skin from fleas.

Human bones start out being LESS" mineralized " at birth[it would be very "hard" to pass through a birth canal---for baby and mom]. Bones have [for BASIC explanation] a shaft and 2 ends. At these 2 ends are also cartilagenous membranes called epiphyseal plates. This area is where growth takes place by depositing new cells. It isnt hard yet. As the cells are deposited---the bone grows in LENGTH. At the same time---SKIN is "growing" to PROTECT and cover the growing bone. Bone is mineralized for strength---but it is porous to allow cellular activity to occur. If you were to cut a human bone in 1/2, lengthwise, you would find hundreds and 100's of "holes". This is necessary for all the blood capillaries to have a place to do their thing. It's only when you "stop" growing /or "reach your adult height" that the ends of the bone will no longer have the epiphyseal plates----it will become hardened as the rest of the bone and a very "faint" suture-type LINE will still be there.In a tortoise--the actual anatomy is formed different[even though the area those bones are, are refered to as in human anatomy. ie;the front limb of a tortoise has a radius like in our forearm---but in a tortoise the humerous and scapula[shoulderblade] are FUSED to form the top portion of the plastern---our 12 pairs of ribs make up the FUSED portion of the carapase refered to as the costals[human anatomy terminology costal=rib]. I don't know if this is making any sense and I'm starting to ramble. I think that it is always better to read and incorporate info to a plan but I am always leery of extremes. I believe it is extreme to feed 365 days a year, a wild species[even if they are captive-born] because we all know that would not be the enviornment in the wild. It becomes debatable because there is NO FORMULA to replicate Mother Nature---and these are our "PETS". JMO

 

[spengleri]

Tom, hope this hasn't been covered. You mentioned in a post a few pages back:
"Humidity will PREVENT pyramiding in a hatchling, NOT STOP pyramiding once it starts."

I have seen drastic changes in shell growth of redfoot, sulcata and leopard shells, as well as box turtle shells with improved diet, smaller portions and increased humidity. Pyramiding basically stopped and new growth was smooth. I do rescue and rehab and over the years have seen this numerous times. Many animals were kept in inappropriate conditions and shells were in terrible condition until I was able to change conditions. It was not always diet, as I was given complete histories on many of the animals, with the culprit often being environments that were apparently far too dry.

A quick google search shows what appears to be cases where initial pyramiding was halted and new growth was smooth. Of course we don't know the history of these animals (through the google search), but I have seen great results myself during 20 years of tortoise rehab.

I do agree with increased humidity for young tortoises, but I also know that once pyramiding has begun, it can be rectified for all new growth. A few google examples are here:
http://chelonianconservation.org/speciesimgs/phayrei.jpg
http://image42.webshots.com/42/2/54/77/2881254770090794962HVoBVx_fs.jpg
http://www.sulcata.dk/custom/Skildpadder 1679a.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...bw_01.jpg/800px-Geochelone_pardalis_bw_01.jpg
http://www.repticon.com/Images/Pics_for_Pages/redfoot_ranch_redfoot.jpg
http://www.tigerhomes.org/animal/images/g-tortoise/aldabra-a.jpg
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thu.../2/istockphoto_371134-red-footed-tortoise.jpg
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/james_harding/Geochelone_radiata.jpg/medium.jpg
http://www.perthzoo.wa.gov.au/upload/Animals_and_Plants/radiated_tortoise.jpg
http://media.lonelyplanet.com/lpimg/27684/27684-3/preview.jpg

Great thread and interesting topic.

 

[Tom]

Tom, hope this hasn't been covered. You mentioned in a post a few pages back:
"Humidity will PREVENT pyramiding in a hatchling, NOT STOP pyramiding once it starts."

I have seen drastic changes in shell growth of redfoot, sulcata and leopard shells, as well as box turtle shells with improved diet, smaller portions and increased humidity. Pyramiding basically stopped and new growth was smooth. I do rescue and rehab and over the years have seen this numerous times. Many animals were kept in inappropriate conditions and shells were in terrible condition until I was able to change conditions. It was not always diet, as I was given complete histories on many of the animals, with the culprit often being environments that were apparently far too dry.

A quick google search shows what appears to be cases where initial pyramiding was halted and new growth was smooth. Of course we don't know the history of these animals (through the google search), but I have seen great results myself during 20 years of tortoise rehab.

I do agree with increased humidity for young tortoises, but I also know that once pyramiding has begun, it can be rectified for all new growth. A few google examples are here:
http://chelonianconservation.org/speciesimgs/phayrei.jpg
http://image42.webshots.com/42/2/54/77/2881254770090794962HVoBVx_fs.jpg
http://www.sulcata.dk/custom/Skildpadder 1679a.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...bw_01.jpg/800px-Geochelone_pardalis_bw_01.jpg
http://www.repticon.com/Images/Pics_for_Pages/redfoot_ranch_redfoot.jpg
http://www.tigerhomes.org/animal/images/g-tortoise/aldabra-a.jpg
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thu.../2/istockphoto_371134-red-footed-tortoise.jpg
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/james_harding/Geochelone_radiata.jpg/medium.jpg
http://www.perthzoo.wa.gov.au/upload/Animals_and_Plants/radiated_tortoise.jpg
http://media.lonelyplanet.com/lpimg/27684/27684-3/preview.jpg

Great thread and interesting topic.

I now know that you are correct. It took two years of "swamp" living for me to see that Daisy's new growth was coming in smooth. Prior to that, I really had a heck of a time. She was a pretty bad case and it really took a lot of effort and time, but since then I've seen lots of other examples where things turned around much sooner and easier.

I'm learning as I go. No one will ever know everything, but as we all share experiences, like you just did, the big picture will become more and more clear.

Thanks for sharing what you know.

 

[ElfDa]

I have only had one Sulcata, as a foster for less than a year. So my experience and time frame are limited.
It was kept very warm and dry, but misted daily (direct on shell). Fed a mixture of items from my garden which is basically the Mediterranean seed mix along with Bermuda grass, grape leaves, hibiscus leaves and flowers and mulberry leaves.
Here are before and after pics to show growth.

I am in love with you, your husbandry practices, and your foster tortoise.
[bows before you]

 

[CGKeith]

I have only had one Sulcata, as a foster for less than a year. So my experience and time frame are limited.
It was kept very warm and dry, but misted daily (direct on shell). Fed a mixture of items from my garden which is basically the Mediterranean seed mix along with Bermuda grass, grape leaves, hibiscus leaves and flowers and mulberry leaves.
Here are before and after pics to show growth.

I am in love with you, your husbandry practices, and your foster tortoise.
[bows before you]

Well, thanks for the complement but I think my results with that one sulcata was more dumb luck than anything else.

 

[onarock]

I have been reading this thread for about a month now and I have my own theory. I'm going to put it to a test and see. After reading all this some things have clicked. There is a reason Tom is not happy with the results of his semi aquatical raising of torts and theres a reason Nerd suggests mist might solve the problem. I'll get back to you all after my babcocki egg laying machine starts again this winter. Hmmmmmm

 

[Tom]

I have been reading this thread for about a month now and I have my own theory. I'm going to put it to a test and see. After reading all this some things have clicked. There is a reason Tom is not happy with the results of his semi aquatical raising of torts and theres a reason Nerd suggests mist might solve the problem. I'll get back to you all after my babcocki egg laying machine starts again this winter. Hmmmmmm

That's an awful long time to wait. How about a little hint to get us started?

 

[Marty333]

How are your torts looking Tom? I would like to see some pics.

 

[Tom]

How are your torts looking Tom? I would like to see some pics.

I keep meaning to get more shots. I had them out in Daisy's 15x30' pen with all the weeds yesterday, but I din't have my camera. Weighed the yesterday and they are all over 200 grams now. Pics coming soon.

 

[Yvonne G]

This is all brand new stuff, Ben. The whole point being there is no rule yet. We're flying by the seat of our pants. But you're right to question it. For example, desert tortoises (Gopherus agassizii) aren't prone to pyramiding, while Texas tortoises (Gopherus berlandieri) ARE. In the first case, the humidity thing we're talking about here for Sulcatas really doesn't apply. I've raised CB desert tortoise hatchlings on perfectly dry pellet substrate and they grew up smooth and pretty, while the Texas babies I just took in, while only two months old, already show signs or pyramiding. The person who gave them to me kept them on paper towells and I've been keeping them on moist cypress mulch.