The End Of Pyramiding

[Tom]

I think its fine since my whole room stays between 80 and 90 all the time, but its not the way its normally done.

---

They are almost 6 months old now and I cannot call them perfect anymore. Yes, the "high and mighty" Tom is having to eat some humble pie and I don't like the taste. Just when I thought Mr. Pyramiding was down for the count he's trying really hard to rear his UGLY head again.

The purpose of this thread and experiment was to learn, and share what I learned with everyone. It didn't matter whether I failed or succeeded, the point was to advance knowledge. We have succeeded in that, but as you can see in the pics, there is still more to be learned. I have been contending based on what I've seen that pyramiding is purely about humidity, hydration and moisture for babies. Well, again, I've learned the hard way that there IS more to it than that.

They were perfect up to about four months, and then I started seeing just a hint of imperfection. Mind you, they are still the smoothest and healthiest torts I've ever raised or seen, they just aren't "perfect" anymore. I've been racking my brain and obsessing even more than usual over this and I keep coming back to one thing: Calcium. Several people, including Danny, have emphasized the importance of calcium, and the ability to assimilate it, as a means of pyramiding prevention. Admittedly, I've been a little lax about the calcium supplementation with these guys, as I didn't think it mattered all that much. When they were around three months I got busy with work and there was some rain and weird cooler weather, and there was a stretch of about three weeks where they didn't get any sun. I didn't think it was any big deal since I've gone much longer than that with other torts, but the first hints of this started appearing shortly after that sunless, low Ca, stint. I can't say conclusively that not enough Ca in combination with a period of not enough UV is the sole cause of this, but it seems the most logical choice. I've upped their Ca intake and put them out in the sun more often again and it seems to have halted. I'll know more after a couple more months of growth.

This is now top priority for next years hatchling experiments. Scooter and Delores have been busy making new test subjects for us. One group of hatchlings next year are going to get a full time MVB and DAILY Ca. Another group are going to get primarily Mazuri, which has lots of Ca and D already in it. All groups will continue to get the wet routine.

I will not rest until I completely figure this pyramiding thing out and KILL it. Hard.

 

[Balboa]

Now Tom, I hate to see you beating yourself up. I realize I'm a NewB and NOT a Sully expert, but as I understand it there's a "normal" amount of "pyramiding" that will be evident in most species, which comes from trying to make a round object out of hard plates. The idea is for added material to create the overall "effect" of a rounded carapace. The plates will have to get thicker to accomodate this. When I lookly closely at "smooth" torts, there are still clearly visible growth lines and bumps, and that's what I see in these little guys, the overall effect is still a rounded carapace.

Also consider that these guys aren't subject to all the wear and tear they'd see in their natural environment. Constant burrowing, scraping under/around rocks and branches will wear at a carapace. As adults sand and dirt in the wind. A Tortoise shell needs to be a beefy construct. Rainforest species likely get less of this sort of wear, so may naturally tend to put on less robust layers, and suffer more dramatically if they do.

just my 2 cents, you're doing great bud.

 

[Madkins007]

Lessee... you are thinking calcium and sunshine (UVB, D3, etc.) and Dr. Mader thinks diet and exercise play a key role... (can you hear the gears turning?)

If we think about scutes like human fingernails- which they are basically identical to in many ways- then this makes sense. Human nails get brittle, soft, ridged, etc. when our diet is poor, when we are exposed to various toxins or chemicals, when we have a variety of disease issues, etc.

So, maybe we need to keep the scutes from drying out so they move correctly as the tortoise grows, but they also need the right materials to be built correctly, and the tortoise needs the sort of 'playing in the sunshine' care we used to tell our kids all of the time (as in "Its a beautiful day outside, get out of your room and go play!")

Another faint possibility- I know I have read somewhere that someone experimented with hides that applied a little pressure or contact to the shell and got better than usual results. We rarely raise our babies in 'tight' hides, and maybe we should?

(FYI- I especially like photos 7 and 9- you could turn them into some kick-butt logos or avatars)

 

[Tom]

I've been seeing a lot of those kind of hides lately. It seems they are catching on. I May have to do some messin' with that.

 

[DeanS]

I've been seeing a lot of those kind of hides lately. It seems they are catching on. I May have to do some messin' with that.

I thought Fife was doing this with hides several years back...am I wrong? I always thought it was a great idea but never tried to implement it...about a year ago I started using the sterilites and loosely stuffing them with hay and coir (soaked...the coir, not the hay). It's worked well for me so I figured 'why change?'

Tom...those pictures are fantastic...they look like yearlings...on steroids!

YOU ARE THE GURU!

 

[Kristina]

Tom - I do NOT see a pyramided baby. I see a baby with growth rings typical of a captive bred tortoise, that has not wore its shell smooth digging and being, well, a wild tortoise, and a baby that has grown too fast. The gaps that you are seeing between the scutes are a result of overfeeding, NOT typical "pyramiding."

When you feed them more and also feed something higher in protein - such as Mazuri - they grow faster. It causes valleys between the scutes. This is why Terry K. not only says "mist them til the drip" but also "keep 'em HUNGRY!"

My advice? Keep up with the misting, and everything else you have been doing, and slow down on the food! Limit the Mazuri especially. It is designed for fast growth. This is a typical side effect.

I know Terry's experience is with Redfoots, not Sulcatas, but ask him what he thinks.

You have said multiple times how fast these babies are growing. I am positive this is your problem.

 

[DeanS]

OK! Kristina...Tom and I are following basically the same path, but with slight variations. The difference here is that I offer my torts a good amount of food, but they do not have consistenly ravenous appetites. The only things that they will demolish is opuntia and Santa Barbara Mix (endive, escarole and radicchio). They get Mazuri/Grassland every three or four days...and they eat it, but they don't scarf it! Look at the picture...I don't see any difference in development between Tom's and mine...except for size...mine are about half the size of his but their development has remained a constant.

*PLEASE NOTE: The pyramiding on Eggroll is what she had when I got her the end of last winter...it's there and it always will be...but it hasn't grown with her...so I think it's under control...I welcome your thoughts!

 

[Kristina]

Your babies look "gapped" to me too. I tell you what, I am starting to think it is the Mazuri. It is a common denominator. I don't honestly know.

On Snowflake, is it? you can see the space in between the scutes. It isn't so much pushed up as spread apart.

Now, on Eggroll I can see the "buttons" of pyramiding, but between it is "smooth" growth, however - there is that gap again in between the scutes.

It is harder to see on the little dark colored one. It just looks like dark lines. But I can really see what I am talking about on the ivories.

GAH I NEED a Sulcata baby... I need some hands on....

 

[DeanS]

So the possibility (probability?) that a better protein source be implemented seems to be the case to me...which could bring us full circle to the '...carnivorous...' thread...YES? I've only been using Mazuri for about 4 months now...however all the babies were started on it by the breeders. It wasn't until I started using it in June that their appetites picked up! Again! I still use it only once or twice a week...but is that enough to cause this 'gapping'?

 

[Annieski]

I know I have pm'd Tom with my thoughts--since this "thread" started. I decided to throw my $.02 in because I am thinking the same way Kyryah questioned the "amount of food" still being offered. If the season has changed [in Africa] even if the change is not as drastic as our seasons--there would theorectically be a "reduced food source". What if Mother Natures design for reptiles, especially Sulcata, was to have them hatch, during a time of "plenty" to eat--to get them to a point of good weight, firm shell, and conservative hydration--to be able to handle the "famine". During this time, there would not be much growth, since the animal would be in aestivation mode and surviving in slow gear 'til the Spring/Summer time of plenty. I do think dessert areas have at least 2 seasons[ with winter only being a few months].If my thinking is correct, the "timing" falls into place with Tom's theory of when pryamiding happens.It would also[IMO] explain the "old thinking" of a diet "too high in protein" being a component--maybe it's not that it's too high--but more too much. From what I have read about the digestive system of Sulcata, it is different from ours in that we NEED to eliminate every day. Sulcata design is to CONSERVE, for periods of food scarcity as well as water. Nutrient and hydration is re-absorbed from feces and urine[which would explain the thinking that a Sulcata will only pee if it has a water source to replenish itself]. I applaud Tom for the strides he has made so far. Perhaps this is now the next chapterof trying to get the answers to the questions. JMO

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I know I have pm'd Tom with my thoughts--since this "thread" started. I decided to throw my $.02 in because I am thinking the same way Kyryah questioned the "amount of food" still being offered. If the season has changed [in Africa] even if the change is not as drastic as our seasons--there would theorectically be a "reduced food source". What if Mother Natures design for reptiles, especially Sulcata, was to have them hatch, during a time of "plenty" to eat--to get them to a point of good weight, firm shell, and conservative hydration--to be able to handle the "famine". During this time, there would not be much growth, since the animal would be in aestivation mode and surviving in slow gear 'til the Spring/Summer time of plenty. I do think dessert areas have at least 2 seasons[ with winter only being a few months].If my thinking is correct, the "timing" falls into place with Tom's theory of when pryamiding happens.It would also[IMO] explain the "old thinking" of a diet "too high in protein" being a component--maybe it's not that it's too high--but more too much. From what I have read about the digestive system of Sulcata, it is different from ours in that we NEED to eliminate every day. Sulcata design is to CONSERVE, for periods of food scarcity as well as water. Nutrient and hydration is re-absorbed from feces and urine[which would explain the thinking that a Sulcata will only pee if it has a water source to replenish itself]. I applaud Tom for the strides he has made so far. Perhaps this is now the next chapterof trying to get the answers to the questions. JMO

YOU GOT IT!!!!! Finally............. the gap between the scutes is the rapid even growth.. maintained by the consistant carapace moisture!

Yes - 2 seasons.. wet and dry! Little temp changes!

I have pics of my adult female shortly after she was acquired.. and maybe a year later - I'll have to look.

Terry K

I found them -

Note dates in pics..

A year later - ( especially between the vertebrals and costals )

Typical "captive" OVERFEEDING.. let's all learn from this! Does this principle apply to hatchlings?.. seems like it

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Yesterday afternoon Tom and I discussed these very things on the phone. I explained his babies no longer look like "China dolls".. they are beginning to look like tortoise youngsters! The best 'youngsters' he or most have ever seen!!! They now have 'texture'.....

NERD

 

[Tom]

Not saying right or wrong on the over feeding thing. You two might be right. Here are a couple of points to ponder: Point #1: When I got my first sulcata in the early 90's I fed it light. It grew slow and it pyramided. I figured that I must have fed it too much, so I fed the next one lighter. It grew slower and still pyramided. This went on for a while and when I finally got Bert and Scooter in '98, I really went overboard with the "feed them light and grow them slow" stuff, out of frustration over repeated failure. (Kind of the same way I went overboard with Daisy and the moisture, humidity and hydration thing, but look where that took us all.) The result of that is tiny 12 year old 43 pound adult males. So understand why I'm leery of "under-feeding" or "growing them slower". Once bitten, twice shy.

Point #2: This super hydration and humidity thing has produced healthy accelerated growth in my other species as well. Remember my tiny little hatchling black throated monitors lizards from back in January? I just fed them normally, like I do all my monitor lizards, and they hit 4' in six months. This is un-heard of! Kristina knows what I'm talking about. They were in my warm humid reptile room, with a thick humid substrate, a humid hide and regular soaks. They simply thrived! They outgrew their 100 gallon tank in three months. Now at 11 months old they are already breeding.

These sulcatas are the first torts that I have ever raised from hatchlings with the wet routine. I don't feed them any more than any other tort, but they are growing really fast, just like my monitors did. They only get Mazuri once or twice a week in small amounts mixed in with their other greens. And they really aren't very "greedy" anyway. My leopards are more into the food than they are lately. As they've grown all of the past "rough spots" have sort of faded away and now we are seeing some new "rough spots" around the growth ring areas. I'm guessing that these will fade too. I suppose I'm just being paranoid. I see that evil pyramiding monster around every blind corner and hiding under every rock. He has haunted me for so long, I'm having trouble coming to terms with the fact that I actually killed him.

Time will answer many of these questions for us. I knew this would be a long road and much would be learned and discussed along the way

 

[Annieski]

I don't think you should focus soooo much on past mistakes. You have found a way to alter HATCHLING growth for smooth shell in a way that corrected the "usual" hatchling pyramiding. If that was the "understood" thinking[keep 'em dry] of tortoise husbandry --you have made great strides to expell that thinking. Now you're at the next level. Up to now---there has been very little known for EXACT values of anything. If this is a time where you are noticing changes in your "youngin's'" then you must follow the path that will lead to correcting the "next" phase of sub-optimal growth. Even in humans--- there are different times for "growth" to have a rapid/slower process["he sprout-up like a weed" or "he seemed to grow OVERNIGHT"]. This phase of developement may just be the time when growth of shell and bone isn't as critical, as maturation of internal organs and systems[human babies need time for the digestive system to mature before it can break down a good juicy steak dinner]. If my thinking is correct---our torts never know that it is winter--even though MotherNature's wild babes have no choice.

 

[Tom]

When you phrase it that way, it sure makes a lot of sense. I've been watching my little girl develop in just the way you describe too. As my torts get older, I do generally let them "feel" the seasons a bit. But at this age I tend to baby them a bit. Terry had to remind me yesterday that they aren't hatchlings anymore. At 6 months they can handle a little more.

We'll all be fine-tuning things for some time, I suspect.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Tom we're not talking about 'pyramiding' from the feeding/humidity curse you were under.. we're talking about the evidence of over-feeding which is an entirely different thing than 'pyramiding/stacking' growth. We talked about that yesterday.

A multitude of times we've heard on forums [ and personal emails.. I have ] about how "My baby just scarfs down as much as they can eat as fast as they can.. 2 or 3 times a day!!! Could it be they are feeding "empty" greens?.. and the babies are trying to get the nutrients needed for the "get-established" growth cycle? DUH.....

Yes.. you did kill that 'pyramiding-monster' in your camp --- beware of his brother the "space-between-the-scutes" from over-feeding monster.

I realize there is quite a bit of experience/difference between 6 months and 6 years! I'm patient...

Terry K

 

[Madkins007]

OK, I've looked at Tom's pictures over and over, as closely as I can, and I do not see a wide growth ring from overeating. I see one thickened ring a couple of rings old, but the rest seem to be nicely spaced and close together.

If the growth lines are that close and neat, how do you know it is overeating and not undernourished? So little food that it is barely adding growth lines, like a tree during a bad season?

Just curious.

 

[DeanS]

I used a horse trough as a pool for my last Burmese python "Baby"...I kept feeding records, collected sloughs and long story short...she was a little more than 11' by her first birthday...she made use of the trough all the time...swimming, drinking and soaking. Water is obviously the key...but protein sources have to be scrutinized...I already mentioned that I've decided against introducing pinkies to the yearlings...I'm curious if insects are the natural course of action...crickets? roaches? I've seen adult sulcatas munch on snails like it was second-nature!~

 

[spikethebest]

I would just like to announce that as of TODAY! ....


This thread is the 2nd most replied too thread in the entire forum!

Congrats to everyone who contributed to the benefit of all tortoises around the globe.

and a special Thanks to Tom for starting it all!

 

[Madkins007]

IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!

I had a mildly pyramided Red-foot shell I was going to cut apart to examine how the pyramids are formed, and as I was looking at it and photographing it in preparation, I found a loose scute! I was able to peel it off and examine things closely.

I'll post photos later today, but the key points are:
1. The BONE FOLLOWS THE PYRAMID!
2. The pyramided scute is so thin you can see though the pale central area. (I know someone earlier mentioned these two points, but now we have photographic proof of them.)
3. The bone shows impressions of the growth lines.

While this does not change the results of Tom's experiments, it may affect our working theories and would seem to mean that even simple pyramiding is a form of MBD since bone is indeed involved.

One of many remaining questions- does the scute deform the growing bone or does the deforming bone push the scute out?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

OK, I've looked at Tom's pictures over and over, as closely as I can, and I do not see a wide growth ring from overeating. I see one thickened ring a couple of rings old, but the rest seem to be nicely spaced and close together.

If the growth lines are that close and neat, how do you know it is overeating and not undernourished? So little food that it is barely adding growth lines, like a tree during a bad season?

Just curious.

Mark we're not talking about a wide 'growth' ring.. we're talking about the space between each individual scute.

I noticed it especially 5 - 6 years ago when I first acquired the adults [ posted on the "carnivorous" thread ] - alpha female Aug. '04 -

And only about a year later [ between vertebrals and costals ].. as a result of 'enthusiastic' feeding -

Since then I've watched how much I've fed hatchlings - adults.. at different growth 'phases'! I think I've seen a pattern. The diet has not effected the adults' ability to make eggs.

Since the main 'concern' has been on "pryamiding".. and not on growth rate.. I haven't posted much about it until now.

Yes I do have pics over the years...

Terry K