quick question
- Thread starter dee11
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Luck.
Tortoises in the past were kept in conditions that weren't great for them. Roaming around can be a risk in itself, and they wouldn't have been anywhere near as healthy as they could have been (and probably didn't live to their full potential either). It would be, I suppose, like locking a human in a room without light, and feeding them foods that weren't good for them.
Sure, they'd survive, but they couldn't be considered properly 'healthy' and I doubt they'd live as long as they otherwise could.
Off-topic: You're from the North East?
Tortoises in the past were kept in conditions that weren't great for them. Roaming around can be a risk in itself, and they wouldn't have been anywhere near as healthy as they could have been (and probably didn't live to their full potential either). It would be, I suppose, like locking a human in a room without light, and feeding them foods that weren't good for them.
Sure, they'd survive, but they couldn't be considered properly 'healthy' and I doubt they'd live as long as they otherwise could.
Off-topic: You're from the North East?
dee11 said:
I ditto cheryl.......
Where are you from...i only asked for the way you say 'Mam' ?
There is a big difference between "surviving" and "thriving."
What it boils down to is that tortoises are tough animals. They can somewhat adapt to their environment, and SURVIVE for months, even years of improper treatment, but after a while it will take a toll in one way or another. For example, hatchlings that become dehydrated early in life often suffer underlying kidney damage. Months, maybe years later, they suffer renal failure, metabolic bone disease, and eventually die from it.
Tortoises are an animal that has a potential lifespan that in the minimum will match ours. Just because they may be able to SURVIVE for a few years with no heat, no water, etc., I don't see that as a success.
In order to truly THRIVE, there are certain things these animals need. Like any field of study, what may have been the norm years ago, just is no longer acceptable as proper care. Personally, I don't want my tortoises to "survive" my care. I want them to "thrive" in it!
Look at it this way. If someone locked you in a room, with no sunlight, kept the temperature just enough that you weren't really cold, but never got really all that warm either, shoved food in every once in awhile, good food but maybe not the most nutritious, food that contained just enough nutrients and moisture to keep you going... You could survive for awhile. But that would be a terrible life in the end.
I'm not having a go at your parents, please understand. They took care of their tortoises the same way that everyone else did back then. I know that they wouldn't have deliberately caused harm to them. But now we know how to better care for our torts.
What it boils down to is that tortoises are tough animals. They can somewhat adapt to their environment, and SURVIVE for months, even years of improper treatment, but after a while it will take a toll in one way or another. For example, hatchlings that become dehydrated early in life often suffer underlying kidney damage. Months, maybe years later, they suffer renal failure, metabolic bone disease, and eventually die from it.
Tortoises are an animal that has a potential lifespan that in the minimum will match ours. Just because they may be able to SURVIVE for a few years with no heat, no water, etc., I don't see that as a success.
In order to truly THRIVE, there are certain things these animals need. Like any field of study, what may have been the norm years ago, just is no longer acceptable as proper care. Personally, I don't want my tortoises to "survive" my care. I want them to "thrive" in it!
Look at it this way. If someone locked you in a room, with no sunlight, kept the temperature just enough that you weren't really cold, but never got really all that warm either, shoved food in every once in awhile, good food but maybe not the most nutritious, food that contained just enough nutrients and moisture to keep you going... You could survive for awhile. But that would be a terrible life in the end.
I'm not having a go at your parents, please understand. They took care of their tortoises the same way that everyone else did back then. I know that they wouldn't have deliberately caused harm to them. But now we know how to better care for our torts.
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I agree with Kristina.
And not be sarcastic, but would like to ask: "How long ago was that and how many years did the tortoises actually survive?
And not be sarcastic, but would like to ask: "How long ago was that and how many years did the tortoises actually survive?
Kristina said:
And another thing that wasn't made quite clear: Were the tortoises "roaming around" outside? Or were they kept in the house? Most tortoises do just fine outside, and there is no need for lights, etc. when a tortoise is kept outside.
Thanks Cheryl, dmmj, Kristina, GB and Yvonne for saving me from a whole lotta typing.
There are a variety of tortoise that would LOVE to be left out in a back yard, fenced in... lush with grass...trees....plants to munch on and hide and burrow under and the sprinklers coming on with schedule!!!....that in all reality would be a perfect set up for a variety of tortoise and what a tortoise paradise....tons of years ago there were lots of tortoise put out in the yard and did perfectly and I bet there are a lot of those tortoise still mucking about perfectly healthy....now with that being my feelings in response to your question...
The flip side is that not all those pet tortoise ever made it to the outside world, once they were purchased as pets or taken from the wild...some where only ever kept in boxes, tiny tanks with no heat, no light, improper food---horrible care...some times due to not caring sometimes due to ignorance....lots of tortoise sacrificed their lives for the tortoise to be understood in a different light these days....although we know alot more now a days...we know no where near enough to be experts on them....only better caregivers....oh, IMHO that is....
Alot of tortoise kept in captivity today are subjected to small enclosures---baking hot lights-----poor air circulation---not a very good replica to the good ole backyard set up....while some DO work very hard and succeed in offering a very great set up...there is still tons to learn...and while we need the progress and the information of the current day...there are still some great simply old time care that works....IMHO
The flip side is that not all those pet tortoise ever made it to the outside world, once they were purchased as pets or taken from the wild...some where only ever kept in boxes, tiny tanks with no heat, no light, improper food---horrible care...some times due to not caring sometimes due to ignorance....lots of tortoise sacrificed their lives for the tortoise to be understood in a different light these days....although we know alot more now a days...we know no where near enough to be experts on them....only better caregivers....oh, IMHO that is....
Alot of tortoise kept in captivity today are subjected to small enclosures---baking hot lights-----poor air circulation---not a very good replica to the good ole backyard set up....while some DO work very hard and succeed in offering a very great set up...there is still tons to learn...and while we need the progress and the information of the current day...there are still some great simply old time care that works....IMHO
dee11 said:
I am going to give a different answer then most of the rest. Perhaps they survived, because your parents actually did things right. I think we made some very snap judgements in the above posts.
We failed to find out, if these tortoises lived any of the time outside? Where did your parents live? What species were they (the tortoises, not your parents
? How did your parents heat their home? How hot did they keep it? As I recall my Grandmother's house in the winter was kept very warm and toasty... even the floors.What did they feed the tortoises? Perhaps scraps from their own diet, which may have been heavy on veggies and salads? Going back to my Grandmother, she had huge gardens that could feed a small army of tortoises... and feed them very well. She froze or canned produce for the winter to supplement the fresh foods they did buy.
As for lights, depending on species and tortoise age, they may have gotten along well without the supplemental lighting. Old houses often (as mine does) have these very tall windows. It lets in a lot more light then the newer styles. The screens in the summer seem to be even a bigger mesh, then what mine have today.
So perhaps your parents did it right or maybe as was said they just got "lucky" or the animals only "survived". We know they can survive the worse care it appears and still keep surviving... it's one reason why they have not gone extinct yet.
Perhaps those "lucky" survive or thrive tortoises in the past are equal to today, when you see a turtle or tortoise given the "best" of care, yet they die. Perhaps we are pampering our tortoises in the name of "thriving" and in the long run, are doing them a disservice on survival? I agree strongly with the comment, about how we are just in the early stages of learning what really makes tortoises tick. There is so much to learn. We need to not be so quick to be negative about how others may have cared for their tortoises in the past, but rather learn from them what they did right (or wrong).
Fantastic post, Jacqui, and a great take on the other end of the spectrum! There are so many factors that go into tortoise care, and what you said is a great reminder that we need to look at all the factors in order to judge.
ascott said:There are a variety of tortoise that would LOVE to be left out in a back yard, fenced in... lush with grass...trees....plants to munch on and hide and burrow under and the sprinklers coming on with schedule!!!....that in all reality would be a perfect set up for a variety of tortoise and what a tortoise paradise....tons of years ago there were lots of tortoise put out in the yard and did perfectly and I bet there are a lot of those tortoise still mucking about perfectly healthy....now with that being my feelings in response to your question...
The flip side is that not all those pet tortoise ever made it to the outside world, once they were purchased as pets or taken from the wild...some where only ever kept in boxes, tiny tanks with no heat, no light, improper food---horrible care...some times due to not caring sometimes due to ignorance....lots of tortoise sacrificed their lives for the tortoise to be understood in a different light these days....although we know alot more now a days...we know no where near enough to be experts on them....only better caregivers....oh, IMHO that is....
Alot of tortoise kept in captivity today are subjected to small enclosures---baking hot lights-----poor air circulation---not a very good replica to the good ole backyard set up....while some DO work very hard and succeed in offering a very great set up...there is still tons to learn...and while we need the progress and the information of the current day...there are still some great simply old time care that works....IMHO
...thankyou everyone for your comments my mam and dad were only kids themselves and they re in there 50s now i dont know how long they lived etc just that they had them and was interested in how times have changed from then to today im not far from sunderland tyler
Jacqui, Kristina, etc. are all right. Tortoises will thrive when their needs are well-met, and not thrive when they are not.
There is no reason a tortoise running loose in a house is automatically doomed, as long as it has the temps and humidity it wants (which may be self selecting between heating vents or patches of light and hiding in large plantings, etc.) as well as a good diet, etc. It is just that most modern houses are kept rather cool in the winter (and a/ced almost to death in the summer!) and usually too dry. There are other issues with 'free-roaming'- providing snug hides, dealing with wastes, providing accessible water, etc. but they can all be dealt with if you work at it.
On the other hand, they can survive sub-optimal conditions for a really long time. My folks had an Eastern box turtle, caught on vacation in Pennsylvania, loose in their cold, damp, unlit basement for years. They figured it would eat the bugs and drink the water from various dripping sources in the laundry area. It lived for 5 years that I know of before no one could find it anymore. I feel terrible about this in hindsight, but that was the sort of thing that was common in the late 60's.
There is no reason a tortoise running loose in a house is automatically doomed, as long as it has the temps and humidity it wants (which may be self selecting between heating vents or patches of light and hiding in large plantings, etc.) as well as a good diet, etc. It is just that most modern houses are kept rather cool in the winter (and a/ced almost to death in the summer!) and usually too dry. There are other issues with 'free-roaming'- providing snug hides, dealing with wastes, providing accessible water, etc. but they can all be dealt with if you work at it.
On the other hand, they can survive sub-optimal conditions for a really long time. My folks had an Eastern box turtle, caught on vacation in Pennsylvania, loose in their cold, damp, unlit basement for years. They figured it would eat the bugs and drink the water from various dripping sources in the laundry area. It lived for 5 years that I know of before no one could find it anymore. I feel terrible about this in hindsight, but that was the sort of thing that was common in the late 60's.
its was answered in previous posts i think...
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