Live naked people

[Yvonne G]

It's so disappointing, huh? I'm sure there are more eggs. They're inside and she hasn't released them yet. Don't know about the weight loss unless someone had their toe on the scale out of your sight the first time.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

http://www.turtleconservationsociety.org.my/malaysian-turtles/river-terrapin/ As I said I would here on TFO, I gave this group some funds based on sales that I made here on TFO of Cactus Chips and neonate tortoises. I fund myself to have these things that I need, the feeling that I am making a difference for wildlife, specifically chelonians.. See my FaceBook page https://it-it.facebook.com/kapidolo/ of free online sources of conservation news and open access publications for details by clicking on the link provided in that free open source information Facebook page. When you click on the link for terrapins in Malaysia do what makes you get the same kinds of things you may need.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

This video relates information about Pelf and the program she is working on creating a community based conservation program.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Tone when I write might sound different to me than to you. Just so we are clear this is indeed a rant.

"I did my research on the breed . . ."

To that I say feces. I have read to many posts here on TFO where someone writes they did their research and still can't find blah blah blah. Well, based on results I'd say "No you did not do your research", less you wouldn't be saying blah blah blah. So maybe it's how you frame the post, perhaps another way would be to write 'I'm still doing more research, does anyone have a source on blah blah blah'.

The fine line of it is we are all always potentially learning more. As a high school teacher said frequently "Nobody has patent on knowledge" (just what you can do with it, would be a more modern spin). But some of the questions do not reflect finer details of knowing stuff about a tortoise, they are questions that basically could be akin to, "I am starting to try to learn why this tortoise I've had for awhile is not doing so well." Congratulations on being aware something is missing and asking on TFO is indeed a great way to delve into it. Seriously CONGRATULATIONS.

So say you are past all of that, you've read the wiki here and maybe the IUCN/redlist info all of which is often copied from elsewhere. Meaning the person writing the web page just took to information from somewhere else and compiled it for the purpose of the webpage. That person did internet research which ranges from spitting up garbage to a careful accumulation and filtering.

But all that information started somewhere, yeah? Someone made an accidental observation or had a specific purpose to understand something. An accidental observation may be in a newspaper about someone finding a road kill turtle found with eggs inside. Well based on the date of the paper, and the species, you now have a soft factoid that indicates the species in that location lays eggs about that time of year. maybe there was information associated with the picture from the person who found the turtle. Interesting story and their is natural history information contained within.

Intended observation that is written is often more ornery to read, like scientific literature. Opps some eyes just glazed over. You're likely not going to find a well crafted narrative in National Geographic about the care and husbandry of Egyptian tortoises. For that you need a hobbyist magazine and you would get you an article that I characterize as a recipe from the kitchen of ... about how the author sorted out a husbandry routine. Often a good place to read more in depth information, but it is often very site specific. The hidden information, like ambient room temp and humidity is almost always edited out if it was included in the first place. You know it's this kind of article if you find yourself strongly compelled to want to ask the author many questions. "what about . . ." etc. An example is here post 34 http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/why-my-eggs-are-shrinking.140728/page-2 .

Frankly, myself, I like to go to google scholar https://scholar.google.com/?hl=en and use the species name in the search box. So I don't miss-spell it I use copy and paste from the wiki page. So lets try it for Egyptians.

I used "testudo kleinmanni" in the search box and got these results . . .

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=testudo+kleinmanni

There is a chance the results will come up different one time to the next as each users changes how google provides the results (some mystery math formula, it's a google secret)

Anyhow on the first page of hits are at least two articles with natural history (that is husbandry information) contained within

http://www.tau.ac.il/lifesci/departments/zoology/members/geffen/documents/2Herpetologica1988.pdf

and

http://www.tau.ac.il/~geffene/PDFs/3-J_Herpetol_1989.pdf

It would seem Dr. Geffen participates in open access, he readily shares the results of his hard work. The second link is for "Activity Patterns and Thermoregulatory Behavior of the Egyptian Tortoise Testudo kleinmanni in Israel". The title alone tells me I can find out the basic pattern of awake and hiding throught the day and what temps are preferred. Wow, that's alot of information about proper husbandry in one place.

The real extra advantage of this kind of article is the author explicitly says what they found out, and what they found that correlates to other authors (the bibliography).

So, it may take a couple of readings to find all the information in the kind of writing. Scientists have to do what editors tell them as well as the hobbyist who wrote the article I posted here on TFO. Either way ...

Next time you think you done alot of research, believe me, there is more. What you are really asking is for help with research others have already done. I did all this research in about 35 Minutes. Did you just look at pretty pictures of animals on google image search, or did you really read text that some spent some time on. This is what I do for a living. That will be $20 for 1/2 hour of my time. Get it?? Some of the mods do your research for you. Most are just draconian overloads, or say, "I don't know the answer but ...".

Ouch.

 

[Tom]

I always cringe when I read, "I've done my research…". And that sentence is usually followed by some inane question that would have already been answered by even the most cursory attempt at "research".

Did they read an article somewhere that said to keep their baby sulcata on rabbit pellets because humidity will cause respiratory infection and shell rot? Did they read something that told them protein and "fast" growth will cause pyramiding? Did they read something that says night temps in the Sahel drop down into the 50 or 60s (2 meters above ground…), so its good to keep sulcata babies cold at night?

I enjoyed your rant, and my own rant too, but what is the solution? I just try to help and provide the info where I can. What really grinds my gears is when a question is asked, I take the time to post a link that has the answer explained in detail, and then the person comes back and asks the same question and makes it obvious they couldn't be bothered to click my link and read…

Sometimes I will copy/paste the text of the thread I linked for them...

 

[JoesMum]

I always cringe when I read, "I've done my research…".

I'm another... you always seem to have a fight to get pictures and then, when you do, you could cry. frequently these people seem to be the ones with all the arguments as to why we are wrong too.

 

[Tom]

I'm another... you always seem to have a fight to get pictures and then, when you do, you could cry. frequently these people seem to be the ones with all the arguments as to why we are wrong too.

I do it for the tortoises.

I also remember what it was to be in the dark. I really really did all the research that a person could do. For many years I researched. Books, vet, breeders, "experts". I read everything I could find in books and magazines, went to seminars, talked to the breeders and experts at every reptile show, etc… Yet I was rewarded with failure time and time again. I was so frustrated that I almost quit tortoises entirely. How different would my life be if I had gone that direction?

I wasn't able to put it all together until I started traveling all over the globe. How frustrating it is to hand someone all this knowledge and decades of experience on a silver platter with a recipe for success, only to have them argue and tell you about the same wrong info that I myself followed for a lot of years before realizing it was all wrong?

What can we do? We can share, educate, convince, and argue, but in the end they will all learn it one way or another. They can learn it the easy way by learning from other people's mistakes, or they can make their own mistakes for years, as I and so many other have done.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I always cringe when I read, "I've done my research…". .

Yeah @Tom that is the source of my rank = your cringe.

I also 'get it' that some people may be isolated with an interest in chelonians, and they get so much 'feeling of person-hood' here that they are compelled to want that feeling more than they want to learn. As a pre-driving teen, I would go to meetings of the Bay Area Turtle and Tortoise Society. It took a couple of bus transfers or talking my Mom into the drive. All just to not find myself being so isolated for my interest. The few other 'herp' guys in grade school or high school were all into snakes, seeing chelonians as what a sissy was into or some kind of rationalization like that. I suppose if not for laws prohibiting it I would have traversed into smaller species of crocodilians. I did have caimens for awhile as that pre-driving teen.

Anyhow, natural history observation are never outdated. That is always my first goto if there is such that fills my information interest.

There are however some questions on my mind that I don't think there are natural history observations regarding, which must then be fulfilled by other people with captive husbandry information.

Do Manouria have any kind of prevalence to use the same nest mounds year to year? Seems like they might. What is the wetness of the mound? What is the composition of the mound relative to the varying abundance of available materials? Do they they seem to choose nest sites where a preferred nest building material is or seek a certain profile or orientation?

Do Malacochersus migrate from rock outcrop to rock outcrop seasonally, over their life time, ever at all? Is it just an aberrant male (like box turtles) that moves about in search of new females.

In the late 1990's I sought to create a long term study of Manouria impressa, but the pitfalls of doing that kind of work in developing countries is 90% political maneuvering and 8% funding, with 2% energy left over for being in the field. Subsequently a few studies have occurred, with some little influence from me, but most of what it 'out there' is captive husbandry reporting.

Both sources are needed. Both require finding works by the primary observer. Often mentioned here, most of what is banted about is a repeat of a repeat of something some one read somewhere.

 

[Tom]

@Will

Impressa studies??? Man, I just want someone to stick a darn thermometer probe down a wild sulcata burrow once in a while…

Or observe what babies do at the end of the rainy season.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

@Will

Impressa studies??? Man, I just want someone to stick a darn thermometer probe down a wild sulcata burrow once in a while…

Or observe what babies do at the end of the rainy season.

As I recall that was you, going there last year at this point. You and Thomas D. had some sort of thing going on. What happened? You talked about this fall of 2012, when I first got involved with TFO. Sh!t happens!

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Last night Tamara and I supervised Medea with some IM injections of oxytocin. We gave one IU per Kilo, the lower end of the range, actually the range is 3 to 5 IU/kilo. We had three single syringe loads of one IU/kilo ready to go. Radiographs on Saturday showed an estimated 45 egg in her, I did not count, vet techs did at the the hospital, and they had to look at two images and estimate.

She had dribbled out at least seven eggs up to Monday afternoon from over a two month period. One was laid before she made her first backward scrape with front legs, found in the night house and crushed, then she build her giant nest mound. Two eggs were laid in the nest mound, two perfect but slightly desiccated eggs were found in the night box the day after she decided to abandon the nest mound, another pooped out Sunday morning, and one was found crushed in the night box Monday afternoon.

So if the vet techs counted right that would be a total of 52 eggs. Well she deposited 38 last night after the first oxytocin injection (not the predicted 45 less two laid since Saturday morning X-rays). That first injection of one IU/kilo was given at about 5:30 pm, and the first eggs were found at about 6:50. She continued dropping eggs until about 8:30, after another half hour with no eggs and thinking there might be more, I gave her a second IM injection of one IU/kilo. No more eggs by 10:00pm and no more by this morning. So actual eggs counted stands at 45 total, seven drops and 38 laid with oxytocin induction. If the vet techs counted right and I missed some around the enclosure there was 52.

All the eggs laid last night had a slight dimple in them. I rinsed them off as some had poop on them. I got my incubators set to have good air flow and maintain 89/90% RH. That is no simple trick. This morning most of the dimples were gone or much reduced. All the earlier laid eggs that may have had a chance imploded as the dimple grew, they are not re-hydrating. But they served as good models for sorting out the incubators better.

If Darth made a viable contribution, at least some should hatch. Running with the theme @keepergale suggested they would be little death stars. At some point I may candle a few and see what's what. I'll post images here and on my Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/william.espenshade.7 where some images are already posted.

My garage stays in the lower 70's F and last night got down to 68 in my backyard. The night house is set for 70F. I left Medea in the garage overnight as I don't know the full range of what oxytocin may do (safe as it is claimed to be) and the garage temp was 74F this morning. I made salads first and returned here to the outside pen and put salad in front of her. She wasted not a second in getting to eating. Phae came out right away to join her at the salad. Darth seemed to want to sleep in until after I left for the day.

Tamara and her mom Alla tell me on kids' birthdays in Russia the Mom is celebrated, not so much the child. So last night is another birthday for Medea, she did her part despite my not having something optimal for her to lay in the nest mound she made. I hope Darth did his part and didn't just act out the role with all his porno moaning.

I notice from several images posted here and there that they want their nest mound to be much more moist if not outright wet than what Medea was able to build. The quickly desiccating eggs would tend to align with that perspective. I'll have to set up something better for that purpose for next year.

 

[Anyfoot]

Last night Tamara and I supervised Medea with some IM injections of oxytocin. We gave one IU per Kilo, the lower end of the range, actually the range is 3 to 5 IU/kilo. We had three single syringe loads of one IU/kilo ready to go. Radiographs on Saturday showed an estimated 45 egg in her, I did not count, vet techs did at the the hospital, and they had to look at two images and estimate.

She had dribbled out at least seven eggs up to Monday afternoon from over a two month period. One was laid before she made her first backward scrape with front legs, found in the night house and crushed, then she build her giant nest mound. Two eggs were laid in the nest mound, two perfect but slightly desiccated eggs were found in the night box the day after she decided to abandon the nest mound, another pooped out Sunday morning, and one was found crushed in the night box Monday afternoon.

So if the vet techs counted right that would be a total of 52 eggs. Well she deposited 38 last night after the first oxytocin injection (not the predicted 45 less two laid since Saturday morning X-rays). That first injection of one IU/kilo was given at about 5:30 pm, and the first eggs were found at about 6:50. She continued dropping eggs until about 8:30, after another half hour with no eggs and thinking there might be more, I gave her a second IM injection of one IU/kilo. No more eggs by 10:00pm and no more by this morning. So actual eggs counted stands at 45 total, seven drops and 38 laid with oxytocin induction. If the vet techs counted right and I missed some around the enclosure there was 52.

All the eggs laid last night had a slight dimple in them. I rinsed them off as some had poop on them. I got my incubators set to have good air flow and maintain 89/90% RH. That is no simple trick. This morning most of the dimples were gone or much reduced. All the earlier laid eggs that may have had a chance imploded as the dimple grew, they are not re-hydrating. But they served as good models for sorting out the incubators better.

If Darth made a viable contribution, at least some should hatch. Running with the theme @keepergale suggested they would be little death stars. At some point I may candle a few and see what's what. I'll post images here and on my Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/william.espenshade.7 where some images are already posted.

My garage stays in the lower 70's F and last night got down to 68 in my backyard. The night house is set for 70F. I left Medea in the garage overnight as I don't know the full range of what oxytocin may do (safe as it is claimed to be) and the garage temp was 74F this morning. I made salads first and returned here to the outside pen and put salad in front of her. She wasted not a second in getting to eating. Phae came out right away to join her at the salad. Darth seemed to want to sleep in until after I left for the day.

Tamara and her mom Alla tell me on kids' birthdays in Russia the Mom is celebrated, not so much the child. So last night is another birthday for Medea, she did her part despite my not having something optimal for her to lay in the nest mound she made. I hope Darth did his part and didn't just act out the role with all his porno moaning.

I notice from several images posted here and there that they want their nest mound to be much more moist if not outright wet than what Medea was able to build. The quickly desiccating eggs would tend to align with that perspective. I'll have to set up something better for that purpose for next year.

Excellent news Will. Whats the average incubation time for manouria?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I don't have the textbook answer off the top of my head, but like most leathery shelled eggs it is short-ish, say 75 to 90 days?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I spoke with the vet yesterday evening about the result of the oxytocin induction. He suggested that the eggs have a long way to travel from somewhere in the reproductive track to being laid. Give her a few days and then use the last dose of oxytocin. So Friday night's date night with my wife will be another evening in the garage hosting a beer and egg laying adventure. I get a bit confused between Tamara saying she doesn't like the "farm' of tortoises and her deep fascination with their husbandry and management. If you are in Carlsbad Friday evening with nothing better to do and you want to see what's happening and have a barley pop, give a yell. Really, what the heck. It's sorta cool.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I don't have the textbook answer off the top of my head, but like most leathery shelled eggs it is short-ish, say 75 to 90 days?

Looks like closer to 60 days based on a few published accounts.

 

[Yvonne G]

I spoke with the vet yesterday evening about the result of the oxytocin induction. He suggested that the eggs have a long way to travel from somewhere in the reproductive track to being laid. Give her a few days and then use the last dose of oxytocin. So Friday night's date night with my wife will be another evening in the garage hosting a beer and egg laying adventure. I get a bit confused between Tamara saying she doesn't like the "farm' of tortoises and her deep fascination with their husbandry and management. If you are in Carlsbad Friday evening with nothing better to do and you want to see what's happening and have a barley pop, give a yell. Really, what the heck. It's sorta cool.

Years ago, when Phae first started egg production, she dribbled out some eggs on the ground. I had her X-Ray'd and she had 18 eggs left inside her. Oxytocin and calcium were administered. It didn't work. I learned at that time that oxytocin doesn't work on all species of tortoise. She never did actually lay the eggs, but after a couple weeks just started dropping them one or two at a time, over several days, all over the yard.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Years ago, when Phae first started egg production, she dribbled out some eggs on the ground. I had her X-Ray'd and she had 18 eggs left inside her. Oxytocin and calcium were administered. It didn't work. I learned at that time that oxytocin doesn't work on all species of tortoise. She never did actually lay the eggs, but after a couple weeks just started dropping them one or two at a time, over several days, all over the yard.

It's my understanding unless the calcium is IV injected (notoriously difficult in larger tortoises)a few hours before the oxytocin is injected to increase blood calcium level, it should be offered as calcium carbonate in the food for a few days before the oxytocin is given. The calcium is intended to increase the blood's calcium content to assist in muscle spasm control maintenance during egg laying. The kind of muscles involved can 'cramp' and cause problem, the calcium is meant to reduce or eliminate that potential. Maybe that's how it was done, it's not a quiz if you don't recall that detail.

I gave Medea lots more calcium in her Saturday, Sunday, and Monday food, and she was injected with the oyxtocin on Monday evening. The higher calcium aspect is continuing until Friday evening's beer and oxytocin event.

 

[Yvonne G]

No, the calcium and oxy were injected at the same time. The vet was not well-versed in tortoise medicine.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I don't know if I mentioned or not, but Phae was radiographed at the same time. No eggs. After a few in-progress projects are pushed further along, I'm going to make a space for Darth to be less in the females day-to-day. Giving the girls some time to eat, grow, gain weight without his constant banter for reproductive wanting. The backyard sounds like a sound bite studio for porn flicks sometimes the way he carries on.

Thanks for the follow-up Yvonne. Even with your anecdote regarding Phae, if she presents a similar progression of nest building and retaining eggs, I'll pursue a oxytocin induction. BTW, it is Thomas Boyer DVM who was the vet seeing the girls this time. He's the vet that help resolve Darth back to stud tortoise.

I really do wish I could find a human doctor I have as much confidence in as I do for Boyer with the tortoises.

Thomas H. Boyer, DVM
Pet Hospital of Penasquitos
9888 Carmel Mt. Road, Suite F
San Diego, CA 92129

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

It looks like I can only upload 5 image pages at a time as pdf, which are two book pages per pdf page, which is really ten book pages of content. Blah blah here is the first installment.