Hatchlings.

[ZEROPILOT]

Your success shows you are doing a LOT of things right.
Your babies and adults more than rival most Redfoot reared and bred in the tropics.

 

[Anyfoot]

Your success shows you are doing a LOT of things right.
Your babies and adults more than rival most Redfoot reared and bred in the tropics.

Other 2 are hatching Ed, that's 8 from 8. Where going to need a bigger boat.

 

[Anyfoot]

Just given 7 of them their first drink. Last one still sat in it's egg. One of them has a violet colored head. It may turn orange or yellow later, we shall see, the color hasn't shown too good in the photo but it is very blueish purple.
I'm color blind and Dawn started taking the p**s out of me when I said we have a purple Tortoise, until she saw it for herself.

 

[TempestRising]

Love love love!

 

[TempestRising]

Why oh why would you ditch Redfoot eggs???

Looking at 8 years until mine produce on a planned breeding project; to my ears this sounds like SACRILIDGE!

Lol I know right!

 

[William Lee Kohler]

Had 3 hatch over the last couple of days. 1 of which is a first for one of my females, I expected it to be lighter in color, the female and both males are yellow. There is another of hers pipping too, so 2 out of 6 eggs from her.(4 being duds)
The other 2 are from a clutch of 7, the remaining 5 eggs look OK too.

The hatchling in middle and on left are siblings. They are also in the last photo.
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Many congratulations. So much promise.

 

[Anyfoot]

So today I've put all my 12 hatchlings together with a UVB source. The experiment started with 4 with UVB and 3 without UVB, relying on diet for vitamin D. With 5 more babies being added later. I imagine its got confusing for the reader as I ha EA another batch of 11 and now a new batch of 8.
In a nutshell out of the 12, 4 went without UVB for 6 wks and 3 went without UVB for 12 weeks, and the last 5 that were added went around 4 wks without UVB. All 12 are healthy,strong and active. All I can do is grow them out and see if anything different happens. Personally I don't think there will be any difference at all. The first 11 I have that are now 7 to 10 months old are looking good, but a few don't look as good as others, these 11 are in an enclosure where the sun shines through creating perfect basking areas, which I'm thinking could be adding to the drying out of the Carapace at this young delicate age. My 12 babies are not near a window so I've eliminated that variable for these. I'm thinking of doing a full u turn with that latest 8 and growing these with UVB from wk 2 and only feeding weeds/flowers to see if fruit, mushrooms and protein have an effect on growth, this doesn't seem right to me but I'll follow the process through for a few months.
I know I keep harping on, but it doesn't make sense to me that if anything that dries out the Carapace causes pyramiding to some degree that at such a young age they would rely on the sun for Vit D. The very thing that's giving them D3 is also drying them out, I'm talking about when they are still soft with this thought process. Soon as they are hard then you wouldn't think basking for a while would not effect the Carapace growth because it's harder and already set, being small they would not bask for long periods because of overheating anyway. I've noticed redfoots are around the 6 months old stage in captivity to have a full hardened plastron.
If they don't get D3 from the sun for let's say for the first 6 months of life then it's either diet or there is a storage of vitamin D that lasts them out until they are forced to go out and explore.
My 3 that had no UVB for 12 wks are already hardening off, I haven't got the backbone to go another 12wks without UVB. I'll see how these grow first before doing a longer period with no UVB.
I've also thought about having a basking area that is only available for 1hr in a morning, this would imitate IF they do come out at wks old in the wild.
So many combinations.

 

[xirxes]

Great work! Glad you have so many test subjects!

My scientific background urges me to recommend keeping the rigid parameters for as long as possible, in order to clarify any specific effects long term. I do know that studies have been done in situ on amount of UV that reaches the torts even through heavy canopy or 100% shade, and the results are quite interesting (mainly that they get more UVB than you would expect due to dispersion effects).

There is not enouigh info IMHO about how much D3 is adaquately produced from food vs other environmental factors in this specis, and as always, with tortoises of all kinds, mis/pseudoinformation abounds in the industry.

I'd think that groups of these qualities should satisfy a long term study from birth so long as adherence was constant:

A) Natural unfiltered sun bask available no D3 added, B) 80% shade/window tint filtered sun bask available, no D3 added, C) UVB lamp bask available, no D3 added, D) No bask available, but D3 added calcium 2x weekly also Mazuri diet, E) No bask, no D3 added, copious natural weed diet

I would only stop these if i saw a dramatic significant and deleterious effect popping up in the majority of one group, AKA 75% of group C started massive pyramiding, or if group E showed marked MBD by 1 year point or something like that. It would prove the point anyways.

Good luck! Excited to see results.

 

[Anyfoot]

I've found that if I put a pile of mixed food down with multiple babies that one can gobble down the more preferred food before another gets its fare share. For example one will gobble loads of strawberries and leave weeds for another baby.
So I've now started to feed them a mixed diet over a longer period, same food for all babies on each day. This is my monthly schedule. I'll see how it goes and see if there is still differences in growth smoothness. I'm not convinced that this will make a difference because members with herbivore torts see the same results with varied smoothness and they only feed foliage (I think). Also I would imagine that they eat anything that they find in the wild, so there is variation there.
Anyway, this way assures me they are all getting their fare share of vitamins and no one tort is picking off the preferred foods.

 

[Markw84]

I'm talking about when they are still soft with this thought process. Soon as they are hard then you wouldn't think basking for a while would not effect the Carapace growth because it's harder and already set, being small they would not bask for long periods because of overheating anyway. I've noticed redfoots are around the 6 months old stage in captivity to have a full hardened plastron.

Craig:

Just a thought about your conclusion above... The Carapace and bone structure is not as "set" as we may think in a young tortoise. The ossification process takes several years to totally harden and all fontanels to fill in. I know in sulcatas, it is 5-6 years before their shell is totally filled in with a complete bone structure under the scutes. The vertebrals do fill in fairly quickly, but the pleurals, even at 2 years old, are at least 1/2 "open/soft" fontanels. I believe that is why the vertebral scutes are by far the most prone to pyramid and hardest to smooth out once started. While the costals can remain much more smooth and will develop smooth growth quickly even with a pyramided start. That's why the first few YEARS are important in developing smooth growth until the shell bone has actually filled in to a much greater degree.

To show what I mean, here is a picture from The Crying Tortoise to show the size and amount of fontanels still present in a 2 yr and 4 yr old sulcata.

 

[Anyfoot]

Craig:

Just a thought about your conclusion above... The Carapace and bone structure is not as "set" as we may think in a young tortoise. The ossification process takes several years to totally harden and all fontanels to fill in. I know in sulcatas, it is 5-6 years before their shell is totally filled in with a complete bone structure under the scutes. The vertebrals do fill in fairly quickly, but the pleurals, even at 2 years old, are at least 1/2 "open/soft" fontanels. I believe that is why the vertebral scutes are by far the most prone to pyramid and hardest to smooth out once started. While the costals can remain much more smooth and will develop smooth growth quickly even with a pyramided start. That's why the first few YEARS are important in developing smooth growth until the shell bone has actually filled in to a much greater degree.

To show what I mean, here is a picture from The Crying Tortoise to show the size and amount of fontanels still present in a 2 yr and 4 yr old sulcata.

View attachment 210267

Wow, thanks Mark. That's very useful and something to think about.

Would we be able to see this with x-rays?

 

[Markw84]

Wow, thanks Mark. That's very useful and something to think about.

Would we be able to see this with x-rays?

I'm not an x-ray technician. I would THINK the focus point and the contrast would have to be set to focus on shell depth, while most x-rays we see of tortoises are looking beyond the shell to see stones, eggs, etc. or profile of shell. if it could be done, it would have to be someone who knows how to "zero in" on the pleurals with pretty sensitive detail and contrast to show the thin bone forming.

 

[xirxes]

I would say a 5 year rigorous study is in order then! Cheers mate let me know when results are in!

 

[allegraf]

I'm color blind and Dawn started taking the p**s out of me when I said we have a purple Tortoise, until she saw it for herself.
View attachment 209927 View attachment 209928 View attachment 209929 View attachment 209930

I hope you re going to name it P**s Purple Prince!

 

[xirxes]

Found this gem tonight. Stuff we all should know already, but a good read!

https://sites.google.com/site/tortoiselibrary/health-and-medical/understanding-pyramiding

 

[Anyfoot]

I hope you re going to name it P**s Purple Prince!

P**s Purple Prince it is, I'll call him '3P' for short. Oh wait a minute I'm not keeping any more.

Allegra, do you have any photos of around 3 month olds from above view. I want to see how fast mine are growing compared to others. Even if I feed only weeds which I do for first 4 wks they seem to grow faster than what I'm seeing with others. Maybe soaking is excelling growth.

 

[Anyfoot]

Apart from 2 in top right these are 3 months old.

 

[Anyfoot]

Craig:

Just a thought about your conclusion above... The Carapace and bone structure is not as "set" as we may think in a young tortoise. The ossification process takes several years to totally harden and all fontanels to fill in. I know in sulcatas, it is 5-6 years before their shell is totally filled in with a complete bone structure under the scutes. The vertebrals do fill in fairly quickly, but the pleurals, even at 2 years old, are at least 1/2 "open/soft" fontanels. I believe that is why the vertebral scutes are by far the most prone to pyramid and hardest to smooth out once started. While the costals can remain much more smooth and will develop smooth growth quickly even with a pyramided start. That's why the first few YEARS are important in developing smooth growth until the shell bone has actually filled in to a much greater degree.

To show what I mean, here is a picture from The Crying Tortoise to show the size and amount of fontanels still present in a 2 yr and 4 yr old sulcata.

View attachment 210267

Mark.
Do you think for the fontanels to fill in process is related to size or age?
These 2 torts are both from same clutch and just over 3 yrs old. Let's assume the biggest one is fully filled in, does this mean the smallest one is filled in or is he at the stage that the largest one was at when at the smaller ones size.

 

[Markw84]

Mark.
Do you think for the fontanels to fill in process is related to size or age?
These 2 torts are both from same clutch and just over 3 yrs old. Let's assume the biggest one is fully filled in, does this mean the smallest one is filled in or is he at the stage that the largest one was at when at the smaller ones size.
View attachment 210330

Craig

I'm guessing here. I don't know. An interesting area for study. I would THINK that it is more age related. Whether larger with fast growth, or smaller, the timing, or ossification staging, seems like it would be fairly consistent in the TIME it would take to complete. Even with poor calcium absorption, the fontanels should fill in, but the bone itself would be weaker/thinner/more porous = MBD.

All this fits my theory on the metabolism behind what pyramiding actually is. Younger tortoises are way more prone to show it. Once older, they are far less likely to pyramid as dramatically. The vertebrals are way more prone to pyramid and much harder to smooth new growth once pyramiding has started since indeed the bone has filled in and the bone plate is tipping and now growing in a deflected direction. While the costals are not filled in and there is not bone plate yet growing in a deflected direction as it has not yet filled in. The new scute growth will start immediately laying down in a new direction.

 

[Anyfoot]

Craig

I'm guessing here. I don't know. An interesting area for study. I would THINK that it is more age related. Whether larger with fast growth, or smaller, the timing, or ossification staging, seems like it would be fairly consistent in the TIME it would take to complete. Even with poor calcium absorption, the fontanels should fill in, but the bone itself would be weaker/thinner/more porous = MBD.

All this fits my theory on the metabolism behind what pyramiding actually is. Younger tortoises are way more prone to show it. Once older, they are far less likely to pyramid as dramatically. The vertebrals are way more prone to pyramid and much harder to smooth new growth once pyramiding has started since indeed the bone has filled in and the bone plate is tipping and now growing in a deflected direction. While the costals are not filled in and there is not bone plate yet growing in a deflected direction as it has not yet filled in. The new scute growth will start immediately laying down in a new direction.

Ive been thinking the exact same today regarding your 2nd paragraph.

What I'm struggling to understand is this.....

If you had 2 torts from the same clutch, grew one slow and one fast and both filled over the same period of time then the one that grew faster would more likely show pyramiding because the new keratin growth could be pushing beyond the filling, this causing the downward bone growth. Think what I'm saying is, is there a point where we can grow them faster than the filling, are we playing catch up when they grow too fast, hence the variation form none to very minor pyramiding within the same clutch and conditions. Are we on the brink with keratin growth to filling.

I need to think about this more, it's opened a lot of new thoughts.

Do we have a picture of the vertebrals when not filled?
I have a 3 month old burred in the garden, will that show us?