Hatchling Substrate?

[Eklayre]

Using coconut coir as a sole substrate isn't really ideal. It can come with a lot of problems, some that can be harmful to a tortoise. When exposed to constant heat coconut coir dries out rapidly. When it gets dry it produces a fine powder of residue that will cling to anything moist including a tortoises eyes mouth and nasal passage. It turns to almost the consistency of sand when dry. It's a constant chore to keep the coir moist enough to not dry out and produced dust without making it too wet. Quite often this fine dust gets inhaled where it clings to the tortoises moist nasal passages. I've seen cases where it causes impaction in the nasal cavities to the point where a tortoise is laboring to breath. It also gets ingested with food. It only retains moisture well if it is kept very damp constantly. A better substrate choice of young tortoises is an organic soil (potting or top soil). It retains moisture very well, can easily be burrowed into, which is something that many baby and young tortoises do for security. But it is also stable enough that it provides good footing on top. If more moisture content is required with organic soil a mixture of coconut coir, sphagnum moss or ground leaf litter can be added at a ratio of about 75% soil to 25% coir, moss or leaves. I've been using organic soils, at about 2-2.5" deep in indoor hatchling and baby enclosures for several years with excellent success and no problems whatsoever.

Thank you. We are seeing that he has lots of the coir stuck to him! And yes, it's sticking to his food. I was wondering if this was dangerous, he so teeny tiny. We are spraying multiple times a day, but even wet/damp the choir is sticking to him. This was actually why the pet shop recommended hay, they said sand can cause impaction and coir is a mess and sticks to them. I really have no clue what to think at this point, so many conflicting suggestions. I do read a mix of soil and coir the most, though. I think we'll try this and see if it improves. We can get plain organic topsoil easily. He loves to burrow, so wondering if adding a Cypress mulch with larger chunks to the mix would help?

Is spaghnum moss ok to add in in various places to increase humidity? Our is hovering around 50-60 with just the course, I think it needs to be a bit higher?

I'm also getting worried about mold - I read a few threads, but I have health issues and the tank is in our room, so I need to keep it mold free (I have chronic health issues and mold spores would be very bad for both tort and me!). Having a warm, damp environment breeds mold. We saw some white mold looking something growing on the wood hide we have, and also a branch decor that he loves to sit on and hide under. Any thoughts?

Thank you so much!

 

[GBtortoises]

Cypress bark mulch is a good substrate for larger tortoises. It does get dry but can easily be sprayed a couple of times a day. It's better for adult tortoises than babies. Adults don't require quite as moist of a substrate as growing, developing babies do. Cypress isn't a good choice for babies because it is drier and is usually in larger pieces. This makes it very cumbersome of babies tortoises to maneuver over and through. Cypress mulch isn't really suited for digging into or burrowing because it doesn't hold form well, it's basically just a pile of sticks.
Mixing sphagnum moss throughout the soil substrate will help maintain more consistent soil moisture. Humidity is something different than soil moisture but they work in unison to help maintain the tortoises body hydration. Humidity is maintained by air moisture/dryness. The three key elements of maintaining proper hydration for a tortoise is soil moisture, ambient air humidity and body hydration.

 

[Tom]

A better substrate choice of young tortoises is an organic soil (potting or top soil).

Are you making your own soil, or using something bought in a bag at a hardware store?

 

[Tom]

Thank you. We are seeing that he has lots of the coir stuck to him! And yes, it's sticking to his food. I was wondering if this was dangerous, he so teeny tiny. We are spraying multiple times a day, but even wet/damp the choir is sticking to

After dampening the coir you have to pile it in there and then hand pack it down. You'll need a lot of it in order to hand pack it down to 3-4". I hand pack it every other day or so, as needed. Its messy for a couple of weeks and then it settles in nicely. I don't have any problem keeping it damp in a dry room in a dry climate by simply dumping enough water into it. I usually am able to maintain the correct level of dampness by simply dumping the water bowls and rinsing them into the coir daily. (Assuming they didn't poop in the water, of course…)

I avoid all of this by using fine grade orchid bark once they reach about 3 inches. I like the coir because I know what it is made of and I know what is in it.

I don't like bought in a bag soil from the store because there is no way to know what it is made of. It is made from people's composted yard waste. It might be totally harmless, or it might be made from composted oleander, azalea and chemically treated grass. I think soil is fine for people who make their own and know what is in it, but even then I find it too messy. More messy than coir. I suppose this might vary with the soil contents across the country. I think back east the soils are more loamy with more organic material in them, while out west here, there is more "dirt" in the soils. When you wet it, you get mud and the mud sticks to the tortoises. When it dries, it leaves a weird dried mud coating behind.

 

[Tom]

Soaking should not be necessary if the tortoises environment is correctly maintained.

While this statement is 100% true, the fact of the matter is that most people don't maintain the correct environment 100% of the time, and new people often don't even know what the correct environment is. Even an experienced keeper is not 100% attentive 100% of the time when dealing with dozens of hatchlings all at the same time.

Soaking babies is cheap insurance. It harms nothing if it is not needed, and it can literally save their lives if conditions are not as perfect as people might think they are.

 

[GBtortoises]

Are you making your own soil, or using something bought in a bag at a hardware store?

most of the time it's bagged organic soil from a garden center. My local soil is too dense and tends to turn to mud when wet. I have used it in the past and added ground leaves and wood soil. But the bagged stuff is just cleaner and it's inexpensive.

 

[GBtortoises]

While this statement is 100% true, the fact of the matter is that most people don't maintain the correct environment 100% of the time, and new people often don't even know what the correct environment is. Even an experienced keeper is not 100% attentive 100% of the time when dealing with dozens of hatchlings all at the same time.

"Even an experienced keeper is not 100% attentive 100% of the time when dealing with dozens of hatchlings all at the same time." - well Tom, I am, that's why I've had the success that I have for as long as I have.


Soaking babies is cheap insurance. It harms nothing if it is not needed, and it can literally save their lives if conditions are not as perfect as people might think they are.

-You can look at it as "insurance" or you can look at it as compensating for something that is being done as good as it could be. Why is maintaining a water dish in the enclosure like there should be a problem? Soaking a tortoise just allow it to drink, the same as a water bowl. The difference is that with constant access to water the tortoise can drink when it wants to, not every couple of days when it's keeper gets around to "soaking" it.

 

[Tom]

-You can look at it as "insurance" or you can look at it as compensating for something that is being done as good as it could be. Why is maintaining a water dish in the enclosure like there should be a problem? Soaking a tortoise just allow it to drink, the same as a water bowl. The difference is that with constant access to water the tortoise can drink when it wants to, not every couple of days when it's keeper gets around to "soaking" it.

I don't soak babies instead of using a water bowl, I soak babies in addition to using a water bowl, damp substrate, humid hides, and carapace spraying.

It has been my experience that there are many reasons why a baby might not be comfortable with its water source, and they will simply avoid it. Many time new keepers will remark about how their water bowl stays clean and untouched for days. Many times new keepers don't know what to look for to make sure their new tortoise is as healthy as can be. And frankly, I don't know anyone who has the time or inclination to sit in front of a baby enclosure for 12 hours a day and make sure each and every baby goes to the water bowl and takes a drink often enough. I sure don't have that kind of time.

Regular soaks guarantee the tortoise stays hydrated, vs. your idea of setting things up "correctly" and assuming the tortoise will take care of the rest. Time has proven that sometimes they don't.

Another thing I like about daily soaking is that it gets the experienced breeder, like you and me, who are dealing with dozens of babies at a time during hatching seasons, to handle and inspect each and every baby every day. It also gets the new keeper with one tortoise to handle and inspect their baby every day. This gets the babies used to be handled at a young age, and it lets the new, inexperienced keeper spot problems earlier than they might have if they were not taking the time to do daily soaks.

To sum it up: If people follow the advice to soak babies daily, their tortoise will remain hydrated and have no issues in this regard. If people follow your advice to set things up "correctly" and not soak because you think it isn't necessary, some percentage of those babies will become dehydrated and for a wide variety of potential reasons.

What, if any, is your reason for not wanting someone to soak their baby early and often, other than you feel it is not necessary with a proper set up? Do you think it is harmful in any way? Have you observed a problem with too much soaking?

 

[Eklayre]

While this statement is 100% true, the fact of the matter is that most people don't maintain the correct environment 100% of the time, and new people often don't even know what the correct environment is. Even an experienced keeper is not 100% attentive 100% of the time when dealing with dozens of hatchlings all at the same time.

Soaking babies is cheap insurance. It harms nothing if it is not needed, and it can literally save their lives if conditions are not as perfect as people might think they are.

Our little guy loves soaking! We are doing it almost daily because it won't hurt him, and yes, we are newbies being overly cautious.

 

[FLGirl41]

Our little guy loves soaking! We are doing it almost daily because it won't hurt him, and yes, we are newbies being overly cautious.

You're doing a great job. Daily soaking is a good thing for hatchlings as the littlest ones can dehydrate so quickly. I find it's a perfect opportunity to also do a quick exam. You'll become very familiar with noticing if your little one feels particularly heavy or light on a given day. Overall, it's just good insurance for making sure they get as much access to water as possible.

Not sure if you mentioned this earlier, but I'd also offer a piece of cuttlebone at all times to your baby for calcium. My girl will leave it alone for weeks then scarf a sizeable piece when she knows she needs a dose of calcium.

 

[Eklayre]

You're doing a great job. Daily soaking is a good thing for hatchlings as the littlest ones can dehydrate so quickly. I find it's a perfect opportunity to also do a quick exam. You'll become very familiar with noticing if your little one feels particularly heavy or light on a given day. Overall, it's just good insurance for making sure they get as much access to water as possible.

Not sure if you mentioned this earlier, but I'd also offer a piece of cuttlebone at all times to your baby for calcium. My girl will leave it alone for weeks then scarf a sizeable piece when she knows she needs a dose of calcium.

Thank you! I need to size/weigh him and keep a log. That would be a good time to do it

I actually need to find cuttlebone and have looked at pet stores here with no success, do you happen to know a good online source? We dust his food every other day with a calcium and multivitamin powder (low protien) and he seems to like it. I'd like to add in Muzo (I may have remembered that name wrong) tortoise food a few days a week too.

Thanks again!

 

[FLGirl41]

Thank you! I need to size/weigh him and keep a log. That would be a good time to do it

I actually need to find cuttlebone and have looked at pet stores here with no success, do you happen to know a good online source? We dust his food every other day with a calcium and multivitamin powder (low protien) and he seems to like it. I'd like to add in Muzo (I may have remembered that name wrong) tortoise food a few days a week too.

Thanks again!

Amazon has cuttlebone for cheap. It's usually marketed for birds, and you can get a pack of two for a couple bucks.

The food you're probably thinking of is Mazuri tortoise diet. I feed it about 1-2 times a week with some dried weeds and my girl loves it!

 

[Patty P]

http://www.hermannihaven.com/care-sheet

This is a good reference. I wouldn't go over 95 degrees in the basking area for a hatchling. Babies dry out very easily. I have a 5 month old, 2.25 inch Eastern Hermann!

 

[Eklayre]

Drum roll......Lol....

New enclosure set up! Deeper coir, hides on the warm side and cool side, new water dish, humidity is staying between 65-80.
Cuttlebone finally arrived - we're adding it today. Ended up getting a CHE to keep the tank temp high enough. For a 0.5 oz 3/4 month old hatchling, we are aiming for:
Basking 95
Tank temp 80-85
Cool side 75
Night time 70

Thank you all for the advise and tips! Any other input very welcome. Hoping this will be a good home until he's a bit bigger.

Had to take a few weeks off for a hospital stay, I can't tell you all how much joy having Yoshi (finally, a name!) in my room to watch while recovering has been. I was worried about the glass sides at first, but he seems to be doing better with no contact paper blocking his view. He doesn't try to get out or climb the sides (before he was trying to look over the contact paper), he actually stares at my kids and seems to watch everything.

Still very open to tips and improvements, would love feedback. Thanks again!!
-claire

 

[Eklayre]

Amazon has cuttlebone for cheap. It's usually marketed for birds, and you can get a pack of two for a couple bucks.

The food you're probably thinking of is Mazuri tortoise diet. I feed it about 1-2 times a week with some dried weeds and my girl loves it!

Thanks! Cuttlebone from Amazon arrived today Do you wet the Mazuri? Or just leave it as tiny dry pellets mixed in with food? I offered it wet a few times and he wasn't having it. Thanks!

 

[Patty P]

Thanks! Cuttlebone from Amazon arrived today Do you wet the Mazuri? Or just leave it as tiny dry pellets mixed in with food? I offered it wet a few times and he wasn't having it. Thanks!

Yes, wet the Mazuri so it encourages water intake. I mix enough water into the pellet so it is the consistency of oatmeal. Your little guy probably just needs one pellet a day like mine does. When tortoises are this small, they eat so little! Eventually your tortoise may fall into an eating routine. Tucker eats his oatmeal (Mazuri) every morning and then gets his "salad" (field greens) when I come home from work. This pattern seems to be working for us.