Hatchling Substrate?

[Eklayre]

Hi there! We just brought home our new little guy/gal on Tuesday, he's (going to say he, for now) a 3 month old Hermann's, under 2", and fiesty, active, and more than we'd hoped for! Got him from a well regarded locally owned pet store that we love. They've been very helpful, and their totoise/turtle expert helped us get a temporary glass set up put together while we build our enclosure and he gets bigger.

Lighting and temp are good, he's feeding daily (and pooping, yay!), and we're soaking him daily for 10-15 min, he really seems to enjoy it. I have a temp gun along with the temp and humidity gauge inside the tank, am paying close attention.

My big issue is they were adamant that we use hay only as a substrate, no coco coir, or soil/sand, as they claimed it was best to not get too humid and that hay was safest and wouldn't irritate him. We also have along clumps of wet spagnuhm moss (and a humid hide he like to climb on, but not go in), a few slate rocks, and a good/water shallow dish. I did a bunch of reading prior to purchase, but to be honest we were looking at Russian tortoises, so the decision to get a Herman's came after meeting the hatchlings. We picked the most active, we just fell in love with his little personality, which was apparent at the pet shop as well.

Anyway - he seems to be doing great and loves burrowing in the hay. That's what the pet store used, so I'm sure it's what he's used to. He climbs and explores and is very active until mid afternoon, when he burrows in and settles down to chill and then sleep. I'm just worried it's not humid enough, and the hay has been bugging me. Humidity has been around 45-50 daytime, and 70 before we go to bed when I check.

I read such conflicting advise from both books and online. What are your thoughts???

Thank you so much!!! Sorry this is so long, I just want to make sure we do all we can to ensure he's healthy and happy. Pics to follow if it can figure it out from my phone

-Claire

 

[Eklayre]

Here are a few more pics

 

[Eklayre]

Pic of enclosure, with hay. Thanks!

 

[Maro2Bear]

You're hay will quickly get moldy and mildewy once your tort spills his water bowl a few times.

Take a read of the experts guide here on the forum, lots of info on proper substrate under the Caging Section

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/

Heres the bit on substrate:

• A suitable substrate is clean top soil mixed with coconut coir or peat moss. I prefer to ad sand into this mix to help generate a substrate that replicates what they experience in nature more closely. However, using sand has been known to cause impaction in reptiles which can lead to death. Although in more than 20 years we have never experienced this with any of our tortoises kept on it, this does not mean it won’t happen to your animal(s). Use caution or simply don’t use the sand. The substrate can be up to 4” deep to allow for burrowing. Burrowing is 100% normal! Do not be alarmed by his behavior while they are this young. They are babies after all and babies sleep. I also recommend adding cypress mulch as a 2” top layer but you can also mix it in to the existing substrate. The mulch aids in keeping an adequate humidity level which should be around 70%.

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. Everyone you talk to will give you different opinions, and your job will be to determine what those opinions are based on and make a decision about which advice to follow.

I think sand should never be used. Why? Because I work with many reptile vets and I see sand impaction cases on a regular basis. My opponents counter: But they live on sand in the wild in some cases… I rebut: A. Captivity is not like the wild. Your backyard is not like the Italian countryside. B. Somewhere between 300 and 1000 babies die in the wild for every one that makes it to adulthood. Not good odds. C. In any wild area where tortoises occur, skeletons of dead ones can be found. Did any of those die from sand impaction? Yes. No. Maybe?

You say "lighting and temps are good". We don't know what your version, or your pet store's version of "good" is. We only have our past experience to draw from and typically pet stores give terrible information, like to use hay as a substrate. We could help you more if you share what your four temps are and what sort of heating and lighting you are using. In the pic it looks like your basking lamp is too far away, which would make your basking spot too cool. I'm just guessing, so an actual reading from a thermometer would prove me right or wrong. What is the basking temp directly under the bulb?

It also looks like that tank is too small. I wouldn't start a hatchling in anything less than a 40 gallon tank.

You need a substrate that can be kept damp, so that there will be some moderate humidity in the tank. If you continue with the hay, your tortoise will pyramid and that pyramided growth cannot be undone. Prevent it now, or you and your tortoise will live with it the rest of his life, which could and should be decades.

Care for hermanni, greeks and russians is very similar. I typed this up for russians, but it should help you too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
And this one too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...or-other-herbivorous-tortoise-species.107734/

All of this may seem harsh, but all of our intentions are good. We have to get the info across as directly and quickly as possible. Your baby does not have time for you to learn what has taken us years to learn the hard way. The idea is for you to not makes the mistakes we have made and try to help you get it "right" the first time. Please feel free to question any of this and make me explain further anything that doesn't make sense. I'll tell you why "they" are wrong and why I make the assertions I make. It took decades of me following the wrong advice, and many years of trial and error to figure all this out.

 

[Eklayre]

You're hay will quickly get moldy and mildewy once your tort spills his water bowl a few times.

Take a read of the experts guide here on the forum, lots of info on proper substrate under the Caging Section

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/

Heres the bit on substrate:

• A suitable substrate is clean top soil mixed with coconut coir or peat moss. I prefer to ad sand into this mix to help generate a substrate that replicates what they experience in nature more closely. However, using sand has been known to cause impaction in reptiles which can lead to death. Although in more than 20 years we have never experienced this with any of our tortoises kept on it, this does not mean it won’t happen to your animal(s). Use caution or simply don’t use the sand. The substrate can be up to 4” deep to allow for burrowing. Burrowing is 100% normal! Do not be alarmed by his behavior while they are this young. They are babies after all and babies sleep. I also recommend adding cypress mulch as a 2” top layer but you can also mix it in to the existing substrate. The mulch aids in keeping an adequate humidity level which should be around 70%.

Thank you! Reading that care sheet was what caused me to post and ask, all the conflicting info is confusing! I appreciate the feedback, I'm thinking a coir and soil mix will be best.

Curious if we should wait to change out his environment - as he's been with us less than a week? Not sure he needs to settle in more or if changing it now would be better, so he can settle in to what we'll use longer term. We'll be building both and outdoor and indoor enclosure and can use that mix in both.

Thanks again!

 

[Eklayre]

Hello and welcome. Everyone you talk to will give you different opinions, and your job will be to determine what those opinions are based on and make a decision about which advice to follow.

I think sand should never be used. Why? Because I work with many reptile vets and I see sand impaction cases on a regular basis. My opponents counter: But they live on sand in the wild in some cases… I rebut: A. Captivity is not like the wild. Your backyard is not like the Italian countryside. B. Somewhere between 300 and 1000 babies die in the wild for every one that makes it to adulthood. Not good odds. C. In any wild area where tortoises occur, skeletons of dead ones can be found. Did any of those die from sand impaction? Yes. No. Maybe?

You say "lighting and temps are good". We don't know what your version, or your pet store's version of "good" is. We only have our past experience to draw from and typically pet stores give terrible information, like to use hay as a substrate. We could help you more if you share what your four temps are and what sort of heating and lighting you are using. In the pic it looks like your basking lamp is too far away, which would make your basking spot too cool. I'm just guessing, so an actual reading from a thermometer would prove me right or wrong. What is the basking temp directly under the bulb?

It also looks like that tank is too small. I wouldn't start a hatchling in anything less than a 40 gallon tank.

You need a substrate that can be kept damp, so that there will be some moderate humidity in the tank. If you continue with the hay, your tortoise will pyramid and that pyramided growth cannot be undone. Prevent it now, or you and your tortoise will live with it the rest of his life, which could and should be decades.

Care for hermanni, greeks and russians is very similar. I typed this up for russians, but it should help you too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
And this one too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...or-other-herbivorous-tortoise-species.107734/

All of this may seem harsh, but all of our intentions are good. We have to get the info across as directly and quickly as possible. Your baby does not have time for you to learn what has taken us years to learn the hard way. The idea is for you to not makes the mistakes we have made and try to help you get it "right" the first time. Please feel free to question any of this and make me explain further anything that doesn't make sense. I'll tell you why "they" are wrong and why I make the assertions I make. It took decades of me following the wrong advice, and many years of trial and error to figure all this out.

Thank you so much for the detailed response! I agree with leaving sand out, based on more reading, your reasoning makes total sense, and why chance it? Coir and soil it is, thank you.

I agree the tank is too small as well. I'd read up for 6 months before we purchased and we we're deciding what species to get, but had not spent time in forums, and should have. I was a biology teacher and thought books were enough - people's experiences are very different from books, so lesson learned. The pet store reasoning was that they can't see their food and water in a larger tank, and this would be good for 6 months while we build. I hate how small it is. Do you think we should switch to a larger Rubbermaid tub ASAP, or will he be ok with new substrate for a few months while we construct the table we planned on building?

Temps being good I based on what I read in this forum specifically, but here they are:

-Basking: 92 (it was close to 105 using my temp gun when it was directly on the cage lid, so we raised it up after calling the pet shop)
-Daytime tank temp: 80-85
-Cool end: 75
-nightime: 68-73

Using a UVB Reptisun T5 HO hood light, and a Zilla Halogen Mini Dome with a 25W for basking.

I hope those are ok! Feedback welcome, I really appreciate it! Thank you

 

[Tom]

With that attitude, you are going to have a very healthy and happy tortoise for years to come!!!

Your temps all sound great. I would want the basking area, just a little bit warmer. 95-100 is what I shoot for, but you are probably close enough. At this point, I would use the tortoise's behavior as my guide for basking area temperature? Does he avoid the area and hardly ever go there? Then its too hot. Does he park directly under the bulb for hours? Then its too cool. Etc… If he uses it and then motors around and then uses it some more later in the day, then you've got it just right.

That is a great UV bulb. You are good there. Hopefully with the warmer weather coming back, he'll be able to get some real sunshine too.

About soil: There is no way to know what its made of. It is composted yard waste, but is it chemically treated sod clippings? Is it oleander and azaleas clippings? Rose bushes recently treated with fungicide? There is no way to know, so I prefer to not risk it. It is also messy and turns to mud when you wet it. I prefer plain coco coir for babies and fine grade orchid bark for adults. Believe me, I've tried everything…

If this were my tortoise, I'd move him into something bigger right away. But that is personal preference. I sometimes start hatchlings in 4x8 foot enclosures. They don't have any trouble finding the food and water.

Looks like the pet store sold you one of those ramped water bowls. I'm referring to the gray thing in the middle of the enclosure. Those are very dangerous for tortoises and should not be used. Several members here have found their tortoises upside down in them and one members came home to find her tortoise drowned in one of those bowls. They are great for snakes and lizards, but no good for tortoises. I find terra cotta plant saucers sunk into the substrate work best. I start with little ones and switch to bigger ones as the tortoises grow.

I typed this up for sulcatas, so disregard the text and all the grass info, and just scroll down to the food list. Lots of good suggestions there:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

 

[Eklayre]

Excellent, thank you! A single ingredient substrate sounds easiest. We are heading out later today to the garden store, I've been reading about orchid bark as well. I think the coir sounds like the safest and the easiest to start with - can always add in more later

My husband and I are are planning, and going to start on the larger enclosure asap. My son is excited because he thinks he can use this tank for tree frogs he's been wanting, lol. Win - win.

Glad to hear those temps look good, he seems to move around quite a bit, and like you said, stops and chills, then moves on. He does like to burrow under the basking lamp spot for longer periods - not sure if that means anything? I just checked the surface temp and it is 94.

Going to keep reading, thank you again for the links and the info!

 

[Eklayre]

With that attitude, you are going to have a very healthy and happy tortoise for years to come!!!

Your temps all sound great. I would want the basking area, just a little bit warmer. 95-100 is what I shoot for, but you are probably close enough. At this point, I would use the tortoise's behavior as my guide for basking area temperature? Does he avoid the area and hardly ever go there? Then its too hot. Does he park directly under the bulb for hours? Then its too cool. Etc… If he uses it and then motors around and then uses it some more later in the day, then you've got it just right.

That is a great UV bulb. You are good there. Hopefully with the warmer weather coming back, he'll be able to get some real sunshine too.

About soil: There is no way to know what its made of. It is composted yard waste, but is it chemically treated sod clippings? Is it oleander and azaleas clippings? Rose bushes recently treated with fungicide? There is no way to know, so I prefer to not risk it. It is also messy and turns to mud when you wet it. I prefer plain coco coir for babies and fine grade orchid bark for adults. Believe me, I've tried everything…

If this were my tortoise, I'd move him into something bigger right away. But that is personal preference. I sometimes start hatchlings in 4x8 foot enclosures. They don't have any trouble finding the food and water.

Looks like the pet store sold you one of those ramped water bowls. I'm referring to the gray thing in the middle of the enclosure. Those are very dangerous for tortoises and should not be used. Several members here have found their tortoises upside down in them and one members came home to find her tortoise drowned in one of those bowls. They are great for snakes and lizards, but no good for tortoises. I find terra cotta plant saucers sunk into the substrate work best. I start with little ones and switch to bigger ones as the tortoises grow.

I typed this up for sulcatas, so disregard the text and all the grass info, and just scroll down to the food list. Lots of good suggestions there:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

Reply above was for you, Tom, I hit reply in the wrong spot - oops!

 

[FLGirl41]

Wow, you really do have a teeny one. He looks very young!

I would not use hay as a substrate for Hermann's and especially not for a hatchling. They actually need higher humidity than what the pet shop suggested, as pyramiding and dehydration both have been associated with conditions that are too dry. Hatchlings as young as yours are more susceptible to this and really need humidity; however, hay is not an appropriate substrate to maintain appropriate humidity levels and can easily mold. For my young Hermann's I used a mixture of organic potting soil and cypress mulch with a bit of play sand mixed in. She loves burrowing and her shell growth has been smooth with this mixture, kept slightly damp.

If you haven't already, I highly suggest reading Chris Leone's Hermann's tortoise care sheet on this forum. A direct link is here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/ It will provide all information needed on husbandry, nutrition, etc. Best of luck with your little one.

 

[GBtortoises]

The best substrate for young humidity range in the 50-70% range. Occasionally higher is fine, lower than 45% should be avoided. Along with the ambient air humidity and semi- moist soil they should have constant access to drinking water in a small, shallow container with the rim set at ground level for easy access. Soaking should not be necessary if the tortoises environment is correctly maintained.

 

[Eklayre]

Wow, you really do have a teeny one. He looks very young!

I would not use hay as a substrate for Hermann's and especially not for a hatchling. They actually need higher humidity than what the pet shop suggested, as pyramiding and dehydration both have been associated with conditions that are too dry. Hatchlings as young as yours are more susceptible to this and really need humidity; however, hay is not an appropriate substrate to maintain appropriate humidity levels and can easily mold. For my young Hermann's I used a mixture of organic potting soil and cypress mulch with a bit of play sand mixed in. She loves burrowing and her shell growth has been smooth with this mixture, kept slightly damp.

If you haven't already, I highly suggest reading Chris Leone's Hermann's tortoise care sheet on this forum. A direct link is here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/ It will provide all information needed on husbandry, nutrition, etc. Best of luck with your little one.

Thank you!!!

 

[Eklayre]

The best substrate for young humidity range in the 50-70% range. Occasionally higher is fine, lower than 45% should be avoided. Along with the ambient air humidity and semi- moist soil they should have constant access to drinking water in a small, shallow container with the rim set at ground level for easy access. Soaking should not be necessary if the tortoises environment is correctly maintained.

Thank you! He won't touch his water in his tank, is that normal? We are getting coconut coir today and a larger enclosure. I accidentally posted twice and have received great info, so thank you again!

 

[Tom]

Thank you! He won't touch his water in his tank, is that normal?

That usually happens when people use an unsuitable water bowl. If the tortoise isn't comfortable, they will just go without water.

The high rim of your bowl coupled with the hay substrate makes it difficult for a little tortoise to get in and out. A terra cotta saucer sunk into the coco coir substrate should solve this problem.

Daily soaks will ensure your baby stays hydrated while you get all of this sorted.

 

[Markw84]

Just a note about the UVB light. You currently have it sitting on top of the screen cover. The screen will block over 60% of the UVB from passing through and getting to the tortoise. A UVB light needs to be so there is nothing between the bulb and the tortoise to be effective.

I also prefer to keep hatchlings at 80%+ humidity with 80f temps min. Although Testudo can tolerate lower temps, the hatchling are much more fragile and thrive in the hotter, wetter seasons and stay constantly pushed deep in to wet grass tufts and bushes. So for me, I get best results from the 80/80 rule at least the first year.

 

[Eklayre]

Just a note about the UVB light. You currently have it sitting on top of the screen cover. The screen will block over 60% of the UVB from passing through and getting to the tortoise. A UVB light needs to be so there is nothing between the bulb and the tortoise to be effective.

I also prefer to keep hatchlings at 80%+ humidity with 80f temps min. Although Testudo can tolerate lower temps, the hatchling are much more fragile and thrive in the hotter, wetter seasons and stay constantly pushed deep in to wet grass tufts and bushes. So for me, I get best results from the 80/80 rule at least the first year.

Thank you! We just got a bigger enclosure, new substrate, and are now trying to figure out lighting (the previous lighting is too small). I'll post a pic. Suggestions welcome! Much appreciated!

 

[Eklayre]

Ok - started on the new hatchling enclosure (we'll be building outside for when he/she is older and a table for winter). Using coir, but I think we need to add more? It's 1-2" right now with a humid hide and varying slopes and areas.

My biggest concern now is lighting and heat! Basking spot is 95 but that uvb light is not big enough. Off to the pet store we go! Do you all suggest another basking lamp, or a larger uvb? Or both? It's so nice to have so much room now to arrange things
Thanks again for all the help.

 

[Eklayre]

Few more pics:

 

[GBtortoises]

Using coconut coir as a sole substrate isn't really ideal. It can come with a lot of problems, some that can be harmful to a tortoise. When exposed to constant heat coconut coir dries out rapidly. When it gets dry it produces a fine powder of residue that will cling to anything moist including a tortoises eyes mouth and nasal passage. It turns to almost the consistency of sand when dry. It's a constant chore to keep the coir moist enough to not dry out and produced dust without making it too wet. Quite often this fine dust gets inhaled where it clings to the tortoises moist nasal passages. I've seen cases where it causes impaction in the nasal cavities to the point where a tortoise is laboring to breath. It also gets ingested with food. It only retains moisture well if it is kept very damp constantly. A better substrate choice of young tortoises is an organic soil (potting or top soil). It retains moisture very well, can easily be burrowed into, which is something that many baby and young tortoises do for security. But it is also stable enough that it provides good footing on top. If more moisture content is required with organic soil a mixture of coconut coir, sphagnum moss or ground leaf litter can be added at a ratio of about 75% soil to 25% coir, moss or leaves. I've been using organic soils, at about 2-2.5" deep in indoor hatchling and baby enclosures for several years with excellent success and no problems whatsoever.