Coil bulb

[Tom]

No... I didn't call you or anyone else stupid, unintelligent or accuse anyone of making things up. I also didn't try to use sarcasm to belittle your comments, didn't imply anyone wasn't making sense or anything like that. So please stop trying to characterize my comments as such.

I didn't accuse you of saying those things, it was questions. I'm trying to understand why you don't believe what you are being told. Why is it not credible to you? You think swollen eyes and obvious pain or discomfort are "my perception"? How is that not fact? The only thing that makes sense is that you simply don't believe that I have seen what I've seen, and I'm asking you to explain why you don't believe me. That is why I asked if you perceive me as stupid or unable to discern fact from fiction in a reasonable sense of the word. I'm not intending to offend your sensibilities. I'm attempting to understand your point of view.

 

[jaizei]

I don't understand what you want. We should just all go,with your perception and just figure they are all good and let's not warn people? Did you read the latest thread concerning this bulb and a blind hermanns? I think you are asking for something that isn't possible. If you think,they are okay, then use them. Those of us who do not think they are okay, will not use them and will keep warning people. The latest thread about them blinding a tortoise and Toms first hand knowledge should be enough. How many tortoises and other reptiles do,you need to be blinded before you stop defending them? I don't get it, you, or what you are wanting.

So in the other thread, it was stated that a knowledgeable person used the bulb correctly, including a burn in period? How high was the bulb mounted? What type of reflector? If you can not answer those questions, then you can not definitively blame the bulb. It is confirmation bias leading you to jump to conclusions. Everyone seems to be in agreement that the number of problems is extremely small compared to the number of lamps sold; doesn't this support the idea that any problem is caused by something other than the bulb itself? If someone uses a product wrong, the problem doesn't lie with the product.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

So not only Tony lost his eyes, he also lost his owner. Because he got blinded you didn't want him anymore and adopted him out? That's very sad

That's not fair in the least. I operated a small turtle and tortoise rescue in a small town. When someone brought me a chelonia, I made sure it was healthy and found a home for it. Tony was never mine. I had him and 2 others since they hatched, but I just let them hang around because I love babies. I had already found one a home, now I just had to work on Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart.
I noticed both had their eyes kinda squished shut looking swollen and neither were eating very good. I used Terramycin eye ointment after the Vet saw him, and I have to tell you the hardest part of that whole thing was the pain the little guy went thru. In the morning his eyes would be hurting so bad he'd have tears flowing down his face and was frothing at the mouth. So I would make some luke warm tea water in a soaking dish, then after he'd rubbed the heck out of his eyes underwater, and soaked for a while I would put warm tea bags on his eyes while the Terramycin ointment did it's thing. It was pretty horrible. I pretty much kept Terramycin eye ointment in his eyes 3 or 4 times a day. I put warm poultices with different organics in it. I worked on that little Sulcata for almost 2 years. I taught him how to find his food. How to get around his pen and where his hide was. I spent a lot more time with him then simply trying to get rid of the eye damage. I had a Vet bill in the thousands, then a woman saw him and wanted him and away he went.
Most of my animals are special needs animals. I have a 3 legged box turtle, another ornata shes another one that's blind, and Eastern Box turtle who's nictitating (SP) membrane is all swollen up and hinders her vision. I have a desert type tortoise who is 5 years old and has abscessed sinuses and only one nostril. His sinus' are full of fluid. He's been treated with every antibiotic know to man. In the mean time I make time. I never had any idea on keeping Tony Stewart. I already have smaller tortoises and a 150 pound Sulcata. I simply have no room to keep anybody new. Any deformity on a tortoise is alright with me. I have always taken the animals that weren't pretty enough for others, it's personality I like...Look at Bob...I have never ever turned away an animal who needed help.
As far as the bulbs, it's my understanding that too much of the chemical (starts with a 'P') flows out of the end of the bulb.It should be fitted 12 inches above the soil and make sure it doesn't point down, And that right there is about as scientific as I get....adios...

 

[Tom]

I ask you the same question, if someone has been using these bulbs since they appeared on the market, has never had a problem, has never seen a problem has never even heard it mentioned until this forum are they just making it up? Did they just get lucky? Did the countless people using these bulbs all get lucky?

In a word, YES! People using these bulbs without issue have gotten lucky. Either the bulb was too far, the UV was somehow screened out, the internal coating of the bulb remained intact during shipping, etc. It has already been stated in this discussion and many other that most of these bulbs do not cause an issue. The issue is how many of the DO cause a problem in relation to other alternatives that don't cause these problems. I don't even want to guess what the ratio of harmless coil bulbs to damaging coil bulbs is. It might be 100 to 1, or it might be 10,000 to 1. Suppose it is only 10,000 to 1. If a million bulbs are sold, that means 100 animals (or 200 eyeballs) will be burned, blinded, and/or hurt. That is too many for me. If the ratio is actually closer to 100 to 1 (which I suspect, but cannot prove) then you'd have 10,000 animals with 20,000 burned eyeballs for every million sold.

Again, to use TBH's analogy, I have NEVER seen spontaneous combustion of a cell phone or damage from a long tube type UV bulb or and MVB bulb. In contrast, I've seen lots of damaged reptile eyes from coil bulbs.

If you had seen what I say I have seen, what would you do? What would you say to people?

 

[wellington]

We have not, that I know of, gotten every little tiny detail on the exact way these bulbs have been used. However, what have we gotten from the company? Oh, that they fixed the problem. Where's their proof? The fact is, the one common denominator among all the members of this forum that has had eye problems and that were using this type bulb, has not had eye problems since the said bulb (common denominator) has been removed. This is just this forum. Other forums, like the Chameleon forum has also had many with the same bulb/eye problems.
If these bulbs are to be used so exact, then I do believe the company making these bulbs should insure that every store, employee and management educate and make all attempts possible, that the retailers selling these bulbs are giving out the correct information, which we all know is not happening on the part of the company nor the retailer. Now, I have replaced many bulbs, MVB and tube fluorescents, for both my lizards, frogs and tortoises. I have never worried about a burn in period, nor worried about the fixture I was putting it in, if I were hanging it horizontal, vertical, or any other way, as the fixture and the bulb itself takes the thinking out if it. I have not had a single problem with lights and bulbs. These bulbs not only are still damaging tortoises and other reptiles eyes, but they were made to fit into most any fixture, like the common house coil bulb fits into your lamp, which is horizontal.
Neither side has the proof you and others like you are asking for. Not this forum and not the company making these bulbs. However, do you not feel that as a forum member, that has seen these problems, at least on here, has the knowledge that the company admitted in the past they had problems, that know one can really confirm that all the old bulbs are gone and that the new bulbs are 100% safe, do you not feel a little obligated to at least give the new members, that are coming here asking for advice, and hoping to get some good advice they can understand, do you not think, if nothing else, that the info on these bulbs should be told to them and then they can make their own decision on whether to use them or not? I still really don't understand the hell bent attitude for defending these bulbs, when if nothing else, there has been a known problem that no one can prove has been fixed!

 

[littleginsu]

I ask you the same question, if someone has been using these bulbs since they appeared on the market, has never had a problem, has never seen a problem has never even heard it mentioned until this forum are they just making it up?

Here are a few observations from other sources, albeit several years old.
http://www.iherp.com/Answers/ReptileProblem.aspx?Id=7037
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm
http://www.chameleonforums.com/subject-coil-uvb-bulbs-36225/

And I am positive there are many more sources, for and against.

It appears all-in-all, no one knows if the problem has been corrected... and, again, when it comes to the health of those in our care, we should air on the side of caution, no?

 

[littleginsu]

In a word, YES! People using these bulbs without issue have gotten lucky. Either the bulb was too far, the UV was somehow screened out, the internal coating of the bulb remained intact during shipping, etc. It has already been stated in this discussion and many other that most of these bulbs do not cause an issue. The issue is how many of the DO cause a problem in relation to other alternatives that don't cause these problems. I don't even want to guess what the ratio of harmless coil bulbs to damaging coil bulbs is. It might be 100 to 1, or it might be 10,000 to 1. Suppose it is only 10,000 to 1. If a million bulbs are sold, that means 100 animals (or 200 eyeballs) will be burned, blinded, and/or hurt. That is too many for me. If the ratio is actually closer to 100 to 1 (which I suspect, but cannot prove) then you'd have 10,000 animals with 20,000 burned eyeballs for every million sold.

Again, to use TBH's analogy, I have NEVER seen spontaneous combustion of a cell phone or damage from a long tube type UV bulb or and MVB bulb. In contrast, I've seen lots of damaged reptile eyes from coil bulbs.

If you had seen what I say I have seen, what would you do? What would you say to people?

I *think* the reason why we see the coil bulbs being the culprit more often than not is because TortoiseForum.org is a high ranking search result, and my guess would be that more people who have tortoise eye problems and Googling to determine out why, are finding the forum. So, our testing pool may be narrowed by the tortoise already being ill...

Meaning, people who experience no issues and have perfectly healthy tortoises may never find themselves here, right? BUT, I feel, for me, there are enough numbers of people who have and still do run into problems with these bulbs, is more than enough to cause me to not risk it.

 

[littleginsu]

Likewise, I am positive there are occurrences where the tortoise dies or is returned to the seller... Without ever determining if the cfl bulb was the cause.

 

[Martini5788]

So I think I'm gonna join in on this debate. It is MY tortoise that is CURRENTLY having vision issues. Since everyone seems to have so many questions, let me try to answer a few of them. But first, let me tell you my background. I am a registered veterinary technician in the state of north Carolina. I have worked for 4 different exotic DVm's in both tn and nc. And I have personally seen over 50 cases of reptiles(geckos, dragons, chameleons, turtle/tortoise) with eye issues that were highly suspected to be caused by the lighting used. I didn't feel it was necessary to divulge personal info like that until I read through this thread. Now, on to the specifics of my setup. My hermanns is actually 1 yr and 4 months old. The dome light is mounted 11-12 inches away from the substrate, depending on how it gets shifted around. I was out of town a few weeks ago, I will try to find the exact day the bulb was put in, but it went out and I told my mom to go to the store and purchase a new mvb. Btw, the bulb that has been used the entire time prior is power sun mvb 100w, and NOTHING else was changed in the husbandry or care of my tortoise. 1 week ago I started getting concerned because of behavior/eating changes, and I thought his eyes looked a little off but I tried not to overreact. By friday I really started getting worried and began investigating, which is when I found the coil bulb. Because of my personal experience with these bulbs, I immediately turned it off. Then I called the vet that I used to work for and explained the situation. He examined him on Saturday, and we did multiple tests to try to make sure that was the cause. 1. No signs of any respiratory or ocular infection. 2. After staining his eyes, no corneal abrasions or ulcers. I was told to get ophthalmic saline solution as well as artificial tears, exact brand is inside. He is starting to regain some vision, but not complete as of yet. The only reason I posted on this forum was because I was hoping to hear from someone who had experience with these issues specifically in juvenile tortoises. So please feel free to ask me anything that you would like to know, since this was a brand new bulb, purchased a few weeks ago. So obviously the issue is not fixed.

 

[Martini5788]

as a side note, I can honestly say that while these bulbs may not cause issues 100% of the time, they are at the very least unpredictable. Also, when I went into petco on Friday night, absolutely furious, I was told by 2 different employees that a lot of people return those bulbs after having issues with them. and after talking to my vet, he agreed that use of the oil uvb bulbs and very contradictory and he does not recommend them.

 

[littleginsu]

Oddly enough, places like Petsmart and Petco would probably be great sources to gather data (e.g., how many bulbs returned, reptiles returned, returned reason, customer complaints)

 

[Martini5788]

that's true, I kinda doubt corporate would just give out that kind of information though. also, at petco atleast they wanted me to fill out a form and put a specific reason for returning it, but as I was pretty upset they said that I didn't have to and that most people did not put a reason for returning. but it wouldn't hurt to look into it.

 

[Tom]

Oddly enough, places like Petsmart and Petco would probably be great sources to gather data (e.g., how many bulbs returned, reptiles returned, returned reason, customer complaints)

I may be able to help with this question, though I know some will question my findings and possibly my integrity no matter what I find. It just so happens that I'm friends with the managers of two different Petcos. I will try to reach them tomorrow and ask them about this. They are both really nice people and I know they will be honest with me about it, as long as I promise not to rat them out for telling me.

 

[littleginsu]

I may be able to help with this question, though I know some will question my findings and possibly my integrity no matter what I find. It just so happens that I'm friends with the managers of two different Petcos. I will try to reach them tomorrow and ask them about this. They are both really nice people and I know they will be honest with me about it, as long as I promise not to rat them out for telling me.

That would be awesome! I just figured since they are probably one of the main resellers of reptile and reptile supplies...they with have a much larger data pool.

 

[Jabuticaba]

Search the forum you will find many threads of eye problems and the OP was using the coil bulbs. The most recent is not yet a year old. Just because they are so cheap is the reason most people wants to use them. I and most of us here want to do better for our torts then saving a few bucks while putting our torts eyes at risk. Better to not use them at all then take a chance. Btw, can't find it, but if you do a google search, you may find where the regular coil house bulb has been known to cause problems in humans and they are just regular cfl bulbs, no uvb

Before I even had torts, I bought a 15w coil bulb for myself to treat SAD. Up until then, I had only used the tubes meant for reptiles as well. I had the bulb in a fixture above my desk, 2 feet above my head. Boy, did they ever burn my eyes! Twenty minutes of reading was all I could take of it. It was a few days later that I figured it out it was the bulb. I didn't want to throw it out, so I put it in a ceiling fixture, in my kitchen, and it's fine there. I've never used a regular coil bulb that close, so I can't say they have the same effect.


May, Aussies, & THBs
IG: @AUSSOMEAUSSIES

 

[zenoandthetortoise]

I still really don't understand the hell bent attitude for defending these bulbs, when if nothing else, there has been a known problem that no one can prove has been fixed!

After reviewing this thread, I don't think you are seeing people 'hell bent' on defending these bulbs as much as you are hearing frustration with people that without data, research, or first hand experience are making blanket statements of fact. This would be the aforementioned 'parroting'. If you don't like the label, perhaps qualify your statements.

As to the subject, one source material was Men's Health (something I clearly never read, and can prove it, should it come to that) which itself quoted the ACGIH Threshold Limit Values, a copy of which lives on my desk. This is the annual compendium of quantified acceptable human exposures to chemical and physical hazards. Due to its species-specific focus, the numbers are of limited utility (i.e. reptile bulbs are supposed to generate UV unlike home use bulbs) but some of the mechanisms involved seem relevant.
For example, the primary hazard in broadband incoherent sources is photo keratitis, primarily in undetected wavelengths, as the aversion response is not triggered. This is counter intuitive in regards to UV reptile lamia as reptiles are tetrachromates and in fact see into the UVA and UVB. (Bowmaker, J.K. 1991. The evolution of vertebrate visual pigments and photoreceptors, p.63-81. In Cronly-Dillon, J.R. and Gregory, R.L. Vision and Visual Dysfunction Vol. 2: Evolution of the Eye and Visual System, CRC Press, Inc. Boca Raton, Florida.)

The closest relevant graph I have is of a starling, fortunately the relevant opsin is conserved so is illustrative.




In this case, the detection in the 300nm range corresponds with that which is biochemically active in Vitamin D synthesis. Given all that, the questions would be 1) if the UVB is too bright, why isn't it simply avoided? In this scenario, the expectation is that affected torts would burrow or hide, rather than suffer damage.
2) why is the capacity for damage intermittent and independent of adherence to operating instructions.

My hypothesis is that the answer lies in the UVC range, which is something I manage in germicidal laboratory lamps. UVC for all intents and purposes does not exist on earth due to strong scattering and absorption by O2 and O3. So in addition to higher energy, by virtue of shorter wavelength, UVC would be undetectable to the torts eye (and UVB meters) and worse, they would be attracted to the UVB that accompanies it.

As to the proximal cause of UVC production, the mechanism of phospors is to absorb short wavelength optical radiation and fluoresce longer wavelength, usually in a broader band. So damage or discrepancy in the coating would result narrow band, short wavelength emissions. Perhaps the small tube and coiled shape increase this likelihood?

This remains a conjecture, not a conclusion, but the upside is it's testable. So with that, I'm off to damage some CFL's

Cheers

 

[Tom]

So I think I'm gonna join in on this debate. It is MY tortoise that is CURRENTLY having vision issues. Since everyone seems to have so many questions, let me try to answer a few of them. But first, let me tell you my background. I am a registered veterinary technician in the state of north Carolina. I have worked for 4 different exotic DVm's in both tn and nc. And I have personally seen over 50 cases of reptiles(geckos, dragons, chameleons, turtle/tortoise) with eye issues that were highly suspected to be caused by the lighting used. I didn't feel it was necessary to divulge personal info like that until I read through this thread. Now, on to the specifics of my setup. My hermanns is actually 1 yr and 4 months old. The dome light is mounted 11-12 inches away from the substrate, depending on how it gets shifted around. I was out of town a few weeks ago, I will try to find the exact day the bulb was put in, but it went out and I told my mom to go to the store and purchase a new mvb. Btw, the bulb that has been used the entire time prior is power sun mvb 100w, and NOTHING else was changed in the husbandry or care of my tortoise. 1 week ago I started getting concerned because of behavior/eating changes, and I thought his eyes looked a little off but I tried not to overreact. By friday I really started getting worried and began investigating, which is when I found the coil bulb. Because of my personal experience with these bulbs, I immediately turned it off. Then I called the vet that I used to work for and explained the situation. He examined him on Saturday, and we did multiple tests to try to make sure that was the cause. 1. No signs of any respiratory or ocular infection. 2. After staining his eyes, no corneal abrasions or ulcers. I was told to get ophthalmic saline solution as well as artificial tears, exact brand is inside. He is starting to regain some vision, but not complete as of yet. The only reason I posted on this forum was because I was hoping to hear from someone who had experience with these issues specifically in juvenile tortoises. So please feel free to ask me anything that you would like to know, since this was a brand new bulb, purchased a few weeks ago. So obviously the issue is not fixed.

Martini,
I read this last night and I just wasn't ready to form coherent comments after a long work day, but I've had some time to think more about what you wrote here. No surprises here for me and thank you for contributing to the discussion.

To the folks who require proof that does not exist for a variety of practical reasons, I wish to ask: Is what Martini has posted here proof enough for you guys? Does it hold any sway at all? Here is an experienced RVT who has seen upwards of 50 cases of this and worked with veterinarians to confirm a diagnosis, or at least attempt to confirm a diagnosis. Surely you don't think that Martini and all 4 of the vets he/she has worked with just willy nilly jumped to superstitious conclusions the way some of us tortoise forum members seem to in your minds? I'm not asking you to completely capitulate or give up your argument based on a single typed paragraph. I'm just asking if the testimony of a RVT and four vets lends any credence to the argument that I and several other forum members are trying to make.

 

[zenoandthetortoise]

I think your question is specific to some previous posters, but I'll answer anyway; yes of course it lends credence. How could it not?
Also, before I start breaking stuff, has anyone experienced this situation (photokeratitis) with long tube fluorescents or MVBs?)

 

[Tom]

Also, before I start breaking stuff, has anyone experienced this situation (photokeratitis) with long tube fluorescents or MVBs?)

I have not ever seen any eye problems from long florescent tubes or MVBs.

And thank you for you contributions to this debate. I hope you will be able to shed some light on the subject. HA! Get it? Shed some light...

Seriously though, I will try to get my hands on one the the bulbs that has actually done damage. Possibly a return that comes back to one of my friends at Petco. If I ship it to you at my own cost will you test it and share the results with us? Perhaps with your skill set and equipment we can finally discern exactly what the mechanism behind the damage is. In my mind, there is no question that damage occurs from some of these bulbs, but my opponents in this argument want to know the exact mechanism behind how, why and when the damage occurs. It would be great to be able to satisfy those questions.

 

[Martini5788]

zeno- I remember 2 cases of bearded dragons that I saw about a year apart, that had issues when the owners switched to MVB, but that was also there only source of heat and they were incredibly close to it, and also had ongoing separate issues. the bulb was in question to possibly contribute to the overall issues, but definitely not the main cause or the only change that was made in terms of husbandry, etc.