Coil bulb

[Yvonne G]

Please bear in mind that this is an ongoing problem. We get at least one new member a week that has a baby tortoise with swollen shut eyes. When we question how the tortoise is being kept and fed, we learn that most everything is ok however the member is using a coil shaped compact fluorescent bulb. If the problem with the bulbs was fixed 5 years ago why are we still seeing the problem showing up?

 

[littleginsu]

Maverick, I believe we are having an adult conversation. I think the dividing factor is some want proof they don't harm and others want proof they do harm... Glass half empty, or half full.

I very much value the information I have received from the forum members, and even the open discussions, such as this. Coming together to discuss topics like this only helps us, as a whole, to think critically and solve problems.

So, let's not get discouraged and continue on working towards finding answers to help raise heathy tortoises/turtles!!

 

[mikeh]

Other noteworthy aspects are orientation and reflectors. I've seen people suggesting to orient CFLs horizontally rather than vertically, saying they're less harmful that way. Common sense and the measurements on that site disagree. The longer side of a lamp will obviously emit more UV than the lamp's tip, simply because of its larger area. So, if you orient a CFL horizontally, in parallel with the ground, more UV will actually hit the ground.

The "common sense" explanation for horizontal orientation quoted directly from Arcadia Manufacturer under product safety.

" Lamps should be fitted horizontally over the enclosure and ideally not vertically inside of a viv. Light is emitted all the way around the lamp and vertical installation means that the light is produced around the lamp at an un-natural angle and may present glare issues to the animal and keeper. Remember the sun is above us, so should light sources for reptiles."

Worth noting is that Arcadia, one of the most comprehensive reptile UVB light companies does not offer spiral (coil type) CFLs at all.

 

[wellington]

This could go on forever.... First, no one wants tortoise eyes damaged.
The problem I have is when things are being put out there as facts and they are not. People see what they want to see. If you chose to believe what literally some guy is telling you on an internet forum with literally nothing to back it up but there own perception, so be it. They may be correct. I need more proof.
What I don't appreciate is the childish sarcasm, and out right hostile comments like "were you born knowing everything?" So much for an adult discussion. Which is why it was suggested in the beginning to not continue. These threads all end the same way....

When you have seen this problem over and over again on this forum and you know some of the members that have seen it personally and trust their opinions, you don't need any other proof then that. My sarcasm comes because I am quite tired of this same old argument and "parroting " comment, it's not the first time it has been used for someone learning on this forum and then spreading the word. That's what everyone in life does that cares enough to help others with what they have learned. The proof this forum has is in the many, many threads, by new members worried because their torts eyes are screwed up!! All seems good, except, the ******* coil bulb. Many have come back to let us know,that the bulb has been replaced and the tort is now getting better. Why not get the proof from the companies themselves that their bulbs are actually safe. Would you believe their proof? I sure wouldn't. They have a lot too lose if they were to tell the truth. We, on the other hand have nothing to lose by not using those bulbs. We do have our torts eyes to lose should we use it, possibly. Not a gamble I want to take and I don't want others to take it either. I will let them know what those bulbs continue to do and then they can make their choice.

 

[littleginsu]

On a semi-related note, what are the perceived advantages of a coil bulb? What is the argument *to* use them, opposed to a linear florescent or the UV flood lamps?

I promise, I am not trying to be snarky... I genuinely do not know what reasons one advocates for the use of CFLs.

Also, is the concern just for the coil bulbs of the tuning fork looking ones too?

 

[wellington]

All I know about why anyone would push them or use them is because they are so cheap. Now that I just said that, I guess you get what you pay for.

 

[littleginsu]

Doing some rudimentary searching, are they really that cost effective, because it looks like they need to be replaced twice as often as the linear florescent lights..?

 

[jaizei]

On a semi-related note, what are the perceived advantages of a coil bulb? What is the argument *to* use them, opposed to a linear florescent or the UV flood lamps?

I promise, I am not trying to be snarky... I genuinely do not know what reasons one advocates for the use of CFLs.

Also, is the concern just for the coil bulbs of the tuning fork looking ones too?

Why are MVBs available in different wattages? Why are linear fluorescent lamps available in different lengths?

Options.

 

[D3sirable]

I had a yearling Sulcata (Tony Stewart) who was blinded about 5 years ago from a spiral type bulb. His pen mate got bad eyes but by then I was picking up on it so I moved him out of that habitat. To my knowledge he can see fine now. But Tony Stewart was adopted out and I don't have any idea where or how he is....I've just seen or heard about so much eye damage right here on TFO as well as in my own herd. I won't use a coil bulb, no matter how safe someone says they are...

So not only Tony lost his eyes, he also lost his owner. Because he got blinded you didn't want him anymore and adopted him out? That's very sad

 

[Maverick]

The "common sense" explanation for horizontal orientation quoted directly from Arcadia Manufacturer under product safety.

" Lamps should be fitted horizontally over the enclosure and ideally not vertically inside of a viv. Light is emitted all the way around the lamp and vertical installation means that the light is produced around the lamp at an un-natural angle and may present glare issues to the animal and keeper. Remember the sun is above us, so should light sources for reptiles."

Worth noting is that Arcadia, one of the most comprehensive reptile UVB light companies does not offer spiral (coil type) CFLs at all.

I believe they are saying not to mount a tube style vertically on the side of the your enclosure, mount it horizontally from the top. As you pointed out.. They don't make coil bulbs(for whatever reason, probably cost.) Why would they have information on how to mount them on there website?

 

[Maverick]

anyhow

I had a yearling Sulcata (Tony Stewart) who was blinded about 5 years ago from a spiral type bulb. His pen mate got bad eyes but by then I was picking up on it so I moved him out of that habitat. To my knowledge he can see fine now. But Tony Stewart was adopted out and I don't have any idea where or how he is....I've just seen or heard about so much eye damage right here on TFO as well as in my own herd. I won't use a coil bulb, no matter how safe someone says they are...

I'm not picking on anyone just quoted as a example, the tort had an issue and the entire habitat was changed. How are you sure it was the light? Then many people read that and call it proof of burned eyes.
I'm not advocating coil bulbs... I read about them here and took the one I had back to be safe, of coarse.
But I want to understand.... What is it about coil bulbs that burns eyes and a high power mvb 12" away does not? Is the intensity? Focus? I've read in this forum that a beam of radiation is being emitted from the end, which seems unlikely to me, but I've been wrong before.....

 

[Levi the Leopard]

So not only Tony lost his eyes, he also lost his owner. Because he got blinded you didn't want him anymore and adopted him out? That's very sad

@maggie3fan Maggie is wonderful lady who has a history with foster/rescue.

I highly doubt your accusation of her "getting rid of the blind tort because she didn't want him", is a correct one.

 

[mikeh]

I believe they are saying not to mount a tube style vertically on the side of the your enclosure, mount it horizontally from the top. As you pointed out.. They don't make coil bulbs(for whatever reason, probably cost.) Why would they have information on how to mount them on there website?

1) They make standard non-coil CFLs, the quote is CFL product specific.

2)Your cost theory doesn't make sense as CLFs are not more expensive then other UVB lights.

 

[Maverick]

1) They make standard non-coil CFLs, the quote is CFL product specific.

2)Your cost theory doesn't make sense as CLFs are not more expensive then other UVB lights.

So in your opinion the non coil type OK because Arcadia makes them? Just trying to "make sense" ...sigh
Manufacturing is not the only cost in bringing a product to market, but I'm pretty sure you already know that.

 

[Tom]

anyhow
I'm not picking on anyone just quoted as a example, the tort had an issue and the entire habitat was changed. How are you sure it was the light? Then many people read that and call it proof of burned eyes.

There have been many instances both in my personal life and on this forum, where the only changing variable was the coil bulb. Just one example that I have shared before in these discussions: We have some family friends that we socialize with regularly. One of their kids is heavily into reptiles and her and I share stories. She told me her beardie (an adult now, but raised by her) was not eating and his eyes were "puffy" and he was swiping at them. I had seen this dragon many times before and he was always healthy. She regularly takes him outside for sunshine and always has. I could see no reason for the problem, and then I look over at her desk nearby and there is the empty package for a coil bulb. I asked when did you get the new bulb. "Two days ago." I asked, "When did the problem start?" "Two days ago", she said. She told me the Petco salesperson told her he need a UV bulb and sold her that one. I lifted up the light hood and there it was. We immediately turned it off and removed it. She returned it for a refund and told the salesperson what happened and apparently she was not the first. Within a few days her beardie returned to normal, started eating and the swelling and irritation went away, never to return. No other variable was changed. Not diet, not substrate, nothing. This was about two or three years ago. I saw other cases prior, and I've seen more cases since.

What conclusion would you draw? The animal was fine for years. Add a coil bulb and the eyes swell up, get irritated and the animal goes off food and appears to be highly distressed. Remove the coil bulb, change nothing else, and the animal returns to normal within a week or so and stays that way for years after. What conclusion would you draw from personally seeing MANY situations just like this?

What more proof is needed. Do you, or anyone else, think we are lying and just making stuff up? Why would we do that? Do you, or anyone else, think we are too stupid and unscientific to draw simple cause and effect conclusions like any other human being of average or better intelligence? I don't say these things lightly. I don't make assertions with no basis in reality or fact. At some point we all decide certain people are credible and can be believed when they speak. Clearly I (and others) have not met your (or some others) standard of credibility yet. Fair enough. I am still going to do my best to warn the people who do find me credible, and try to prevent more reptile eyes from being burned by these bulbs.

 

[Tom]

While we're talking about these sorts of risks and dangers: the lithium-ion batteries in your notebook, phones, and other gadgets are very dangerous. Under certain circumstances they can produce toxic fumes and catch fire. People have been killed by them already. Therefore, I wouldn't recommend using notebooks, phones, etc. (besides, the radiation produced by phones might possibly cause cancer, too!)

I understand your desire to use analogies to illustrate your point. I frequently use this technique too. But your analogies are WAYYYYYY too far fetched. I and everyone I know have been using cell phones for, what 15 years now? Since the mid 90's. Do you know how many I've seen emit toxic fumes, catch fire, or kill anyone? None. Not a single instance. Ever. Is it physically possible? Sure.

By contrast a relatively small percentage of the people I know use coil type UV bulbs over reptiles. Yet I have personally seen many cases, like the one related in the above post, where they have burned a reptiles eyes, not even counting the cases I've seen here on the forum, which are admittedly unverifiable in most cases, but it sure adds up to an awful lot of coincidence.

 

[wellington]

And here is a brand new story about the coil bulbs. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/recovering-blind-hermanns-another-coil-bulb-story.98643/
Yes, they are still out there and causing problems!

 

[wellington]

And here is a brand new story about the coil bulbs. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/recovering-blind-hermanns-another-coil-bulb-story.98643/
Yes, they are still out there and causing problems!

Or, have they not really been fixed at all? Hmmm

 

[Maverick]

There have been many instances both in my personal life and on this forum, where the only changing variable was the coil bulb. Just one example that I have shared before in these discussions: We have some family friends that we socialize with regularly. One of their kids is heavily into reptiles and her and I share stories. She told me her beardie (an adult now, but raised by her) was not eating and his eyes were "puffy" and he was swiping at them. I had seen this dragon many times before and he was always healthy. She regularly takes him outside for sunshine and always has. I could see no reason for the problem, and then I look over at her desk nearby and there is the empty package for a coil bulb. I asked when did you get the new bulb. "Two days ago." I asked, "When did the problem start?" "Two days ago", she said. She told me the Petco salesperson told her he need a UV bulb and sold her that one. I lifted up the light hood and there it was. We immediately turned it off and removed it. She returned it for a refund and told the salesperson what happened and apparently she was not the first. Within a few days her beardie returned to normal, started eating and the swelling and irritation went away, never to return. No other variable was changed. Not diet, not substrate, nothing. This was about two or three years ago. I saw other cases prior, and I've seen more cases since.

What conclusion would you draw? The animal was fine for years. Add a coil bulb and the eyes swell up, get irritated and the animal goes off food and appears to be highly distressed. Remove the coil bulb, change nothing else, and the animal returns to normal within a week or so and stays that way for years after. What conclusion would you draw from personally seeing MANY situations just like this?

What more proof is needed. Do you, or anyone else, think we are lying and just making stuff up? Why would we do that? Do you, or anyone else, think we are too stupid and unscientific to draw simple cause and effect conclusions like any other human being of average or better intelligence? I don't say these things lightly. I don't make assertions with no basis in reality or fact. At some point we all decide certain people are credible and can be believed when they speak. Clearly I (and others) have not met your (or some others) standard of credibility yet. Fair enough. I am still going to do my best to warn the people who do find me credible, and try to prevent more reptile eyes from being burned by these bulbs.

No... I didn't call you or anyone else stupid, unintelligent or accuse anyone of making things up. I also didn't try to use sarcasm to belittle your comments, didn't imply anyone wasn't making sense or anything like that. So please stop trying to characterize my comments as such.
I ask you the same question, if someone has been using these bulbs since they appeared on the market, has never had a problem, has never seen a problem has never even heard it mentioned until this forum are they just making it up? Did they just get lucky? Did the countless people using these bulbs all get lucky? Even if all the eye problems in this forum were all actually bulb related, that number I believe is such a small percentage of the people using the bulbs its hard believe the the bulb is actually the cause.
I'll ask again is there anything other than perception to lend evidence that the bulbs are the cause. I get that we're all here for torts, anyone can give any advice they like. My issue is that this bulb thing is being put out there like a proven fact, and then repeated over and over. When the numbers and my perception, from my point of view point the other way.

 

[wellington]

I don't understand what you want. We should just all go,with your perception and just figure they are all good and let's not warn people? Did you read the latest thread concerning this bulb and a blind hermanns? I think you are asking for something that isn't possible. If you think,they are okay, then use them. Those of us who do not think they are okay, will not use them and will keep warning people. The latest thread about them blinding a tortoise and Toms first hand knowledge should be enough. How many tortoises and other reptiles do,you need to be blinded before you stop defending them? I don't get it, you, or what you are wanting.