Closed "Chambers"

[Maggie Cummings]

Hi all! Ive changed my setup and started using aquariums instead of the low bins ive had before

Ive been able to keep the necessary temps inside and the humidity, but Im a bit concerned about air circulation.

I have 2 tanks, 1 20 gallon for a sulcata hatchling, and 1 40 gallon for 2 rfs. having a closed chamber makes it so much easier to achieve the necessary temps, however, the only time I open the enclosures are when its getting cleaned/ theyre getting fed (lasts roughly 5-10 mins max)

Is this enough time for proper airflow/ circulation inside? Or is it essential to have little holes on the side for regular airflow?

Thanks!

IMO aquariums are fine to raise small tort. The air is fine, but you must soak regularly as you put an animal on slow cook in a tank. But I have raised many babies in tanks, just be sure to soak, and keep up the humidity. I think a 40 gallon is too small for 2 redfoots. After using tanks for years, I found that homemade wooden tort tables make for happier animals. I have several tort tables now, one has 3 T. ornata and they are very different in a table as opposed to a tank. But I also used 100 and 250 gallon tanks, not small ones...are you saying your tanks are completely covered???
Do you ever have anything to do with them besides the 5 to 10 minutes of cleaning? Do you hold them, take them places and socialize the? I do and it makes for exceptional tortoises....

 

[Maggie Cummings]

This is the box turtlere's a couple of my tort tables

This is for a desert tort...

This is a foggy plexiglass tank for some box turtles....I also want to say that when the sun shines here, all my animals have outside pens. They all go outside, even the blind one...
I wish I'd gotten better pix for you but they all 8'X4'....hard to catch in a camera. The desert torts table is covered up that way, cuse there's not lid and the kitten sleeps under his CHE and burns her hair....the same kitten who's eating on the box turtle table....It has lids. Always build lids.....

 

[Tom]

Sweet. Should I install any vents for air if so how many and how big? Also how do you get the glass to slide from one side to the other in the front?

You can install vents, but make sure they are closable. You might find that you don't need them.

At @cyan 's suggestion I use "lattice cap" as a tract for the plexiglass to slide back and forth in. It works great.

 

[Jeff9241170]

IMO aquariums are fine to raise small tort. The air is fine, but you must soak regularly as you put an animal on slow cook in a tank. But I have raised many babies in tanks, just be sure to soak, and keep up the humidity. I think a 40 gallon is too small for 2 redfoots. After using tanks for years, I found that homemade wooden tort tables make for happier animals. I have several tort tables now, one has 3 T. ornata and they are very different in a table as opposed to a tank. But I also used 100 and 250 gallon tanks, not small ones...are you saying your tanks are completely covered???
Do you ever have anything to do with them besides the 5 to 10 minutes of cleaning? Do you hold them, take them places and socialize the? I do and it makes for exceptional tortoises....

Hi Maggie

Yup! They spend 2-3 hours outside (they have a 5x5 area in our garden where they roam around in, soak and bask directly under the sun too)

The 10-15 mins before was only during the rainy season

 

[ElfDa]

hey dudes! I read all about the high humidity set ups, tell people about them... but foolishly didn't follow through.

My leopard is slightly pyramided, but it's not getting much better. She's presently free-roaming in our apartment (humidity is always about 50%, but it's just not enough), while I figure out where to go from here.

We're looking into buying a house (we'd planned to have one by now, but life gets in the way), and will have a great outdoor setup for Penny, there... but until then, I need some guidance.

Some folks have suggested the old "throw down a tarp, make a cinder block wall, and pile in the dirt" concept... but I'm not sure that would fix things, fully-- and it would require a LOT of dirt for a short-term plan. :/

I guess whatever I do is going to require a lot of dirt, though...

Penny is now 6lbs, and still enjoys trying to chase cats.

 

[Jeff9241170]

Hi ElfDa, welcome to the forums, Im no expert but I think as long as your setup can lock in humidity and provide Penny with the correct temp levels, then I guess thats all good.

I have a question for the experts, I have an incoming Leopard, he's roughly 6-7" in size and has signs of pyramiding.

I plan on putting him on a closed chamber setup (75 - 100 gal tank).

Will this still be able to fix the pyramiding? Or will it just prevent further pyramiding moving forward?

Thanks!

 

[Alaskamike]

Hi ElfDa, welcome to the forums, Im no expert but I think as long as your setup can lock in humidity and provide Penny with the correct temp levels, then I guess thats all good.

I have a question for the experts, I have an incoming Leopard, he's roughly 6-7" in size and has signs of pyramiding.

I plan on putting him on a closed chamber setup (75 - 100 gal tank).

Will this still be able to fix the pyramiding? Or will it just prevent further pyramiding moving forward?

Thanks!

Pyramidig is not something you "fix", but a condition you can slow and improve. As shell grows new keratin expansion the new growth can come in smoother making the pyramided growth less noticable. This reduces the stress on the underlying bone - which is the real problem, ad ot a cosmetic one.

 

[Tom]

hey dudes! I read all about the high humidity set ups, tell people about them... but foolishly didn't follow through.

My leopard is slightly pyramided, but it's not getting much better. She's presently free-roaming in our apartment (humidity is always about 50%, but it's just not enough), while I figure out where to go from here.

We're looking into buying a house (we'd planned to have one by now, but life gets in the way), and will have a great outdoor setup for Penny, there... but until then, I need some guidance.

Some folks have suggested the old "throw down a tarp, make a cinder block wall, and pile in the dirt" concept... but I'm not sure that would fix things, fully-- and it would require a LOT of dirt for a short-term plan. :/

I guess whatever I do is going to require a lot of dirt, though...

Penny is now 6lbs, and still enjoys trying to chase cats.

You need a large closed chamber.

Running loose in the house is a recipe for disaster. I would not do that. Everybody thinks its fine, until the day they realize its not fine while standing in the vets office. I've seen so many tears shed over all the things that can happen...

 

[Tom]

Hi ElfDa, welcome to the forums, Im no expert but I think as long as your setup can lock in humidity and provide Penny with the correct temp levels, then I guess thats all good.

I have a question for the experts, I have an incoming Leopard, he's roughly 6-7" in size and has signs of pyramiding.

I plan on putting him on a closed chamber setup (75 - 100 gal tank).

Will this still be able to fix the pyramiding? Or will it just prevent further pyramiding moving forward?

Thanks!

A 100 gallon tank is fine for a hatchling but WAYYYYYY too small for a 6-7 inch tortoise. You need something around 4x8 feet and closed in.

The existing pyramiding will never go away, but newer smooth growth will make it less noticeable over time.

 

[Yvonne G]

One would think that "100 gallons" is a very large container, but think about it...the gallons are measured in volume, that is, the overall containment. You don't care about volume, you want floor space for your tortoise. Now if you could make the walls 8" high and make the floor space big enough to contain 100 gallons, it might (MIGHT) be big enough.

 

[ElfDa]

You need a large closed chamber.

Running loose in the house is a recipe for disaster. I would not do that. Everybody thinks its fine, until the day they realize its not fine while standing in the vets office. I've seen so many tears shed over all the things that can happen...

I do agree, whole-heartedly. I'm trying to figure out how to build an enclosure that will give her enough space, and that I can put together within our 2 bedroom apartment.

Honestly, I should have built her enclosure, first, and then added shelves and whatnot later. Hindsight is 20/20...

 

[glitch4200]

@Tom I have been following you for awhile now in this forum. You have much success with closed chambers. But i have always wondered if you knew the reason why from a biological point of view? Why does high humidity keep the shells smooth?.. I asked myself that question many times while searching around about my coconut oil idea.. I am just wondering to what extend you understand the process of high humidity in enclosed chambers and its effect on the alpha and beta keratin's of tortoises. I think i have figured it out.. But am curious to what you think.. Or have you even thought about this?

 

[Tom]

@Tom I have been following you for awhile now in this forum. You have much success with closed chambers. But i have always wondered if you knew the reason why from a biological point of view? Why does high humidity keep the shells smooth?.. I asked myself that question many times while searching around about my coconut oil idea.. I am just wondering to what extend you understand the process of high humidity in enclosed chambers and its effect on the alpha and beta keratin's of tortoises. I think i have figured it out.. But am curious to what you think.. Or have you even thought about this?

Andy Highfield and I had an 18 page argument about this. Perhaps @jaizei our resident critic and expert finder of old threads can find the thread and link it for you.

In short, the answer is not fully known. Some think humidity serves to slow internal dehydration which helps prevent pyramiding. Some people think the moisture in the air keeps the keratin layer more pliable allowing the underlying bone to form correctly and not deform as it does with overly dry keratin.

I think there are many aspects to it and much more to be learned. Humidity alone is not the only piece to this puzzle. My latest unanswered question is: Why do some hatchlings in a group that are raised in the same enclosure with the same food and routine pyramid, while others don't?

 

[WithLisa]

@Tom I have been following you for awhile now in this forum. You have much success with closed chambers. But i have always wondered if you knew the reason why from a biological point of view? Why does high humidity keep the shells smooth?.. I asked myself that question many times while searching around about my coconut oil idea.. I am just wondering to what extend you understand the process of high humidity in enclosed chambers and its effect on the alpha and beta keratin's of tortoises. I think i have figured it out.. But am curious to what you think.. Or have you even thought about this?

I've read an article about it some time ago. If you are interested I can look up the title, but I'm afraid it was in German.
It said that when breathing dry air, tortoises loose moisture from their lungs. To keep them moist they take water from less important tissue near the lungs, for example from the connective tissue under the shell, so the tissue sinks in. If it stays like this for a longer time and the tortoise is growing, the new keratin is build up on this deeper level.
Once the Keratin is formed it's difficult to smoothe out. Like a human fingernail can be bended, but always goes back to it's former shape.

I don't know if this is really the main cause for pyramiding (and the article was a few years old, maybe there are already newer information about it) but it makes sense to me.

Why do some hatchlings in a group that are raised in the same enclosure with the same food and routine pyramid, while others don't?

I guess because of different behaviour. My two Hermanns live in the same enclosure, but one of them is rather shy, prefers to hide at moist places and digs in at night, the other one is bolder, spends a lot of time in the direct sun and never digs in. The first one has a smoother shell.

 

[glitch4200]

Andy Highfield and I had an 18 page argument about this. Perhaps @jaizei our resident critic and expert finder of old threads can find the thread and link it for you.

In short, the answer is not fully known. Some think humidity serves to slow internal dehydration which helps prevent pyramiding. Some people think the moisture in the air keeps the keratin layer more pliable allowing the underlying bone to form correctly and not deform as it does with overly dry keratin.

I think there are many aspects to it and much more to be learned. Humidity alone is not the only piece to this puzzle. My latest unanswered question is: Why do some hatchlings in a group that are raised in the same enclosure with the same food and routine pyramid, while others don't?

I was interested into the biological component of this whole idea... And here is what i have come up with thru my research.

Keratin is made out of proteins.. You have beta keratin and alpha keratin. Beta means basic. Alpha means acidic.
The proteins are made out of amino acids. These amino acids are bound together by bonds between the molecules. Disulfide and i believe covelant.

These amino acids are structured in 2 ways. Alpha keratin is combined in helixes bound by disufide bridges. The more disulfide bridges the stronger the alpha keratin. This is good. Problem is.. These bonds are water sensitive gaining and loosing water readily.. Now beta keratin are pleated sheets of bound amino acids.. These bound amino acids are subject to the same issue as alpha keratin i explained before. They are also water sensitive..

These bonds happen to be hydroscopic and are very sensitive to envirornmental influence of humidity and water intake and dehydration. That means any source that emits dehydrating heat will severely impact both alpha and beta keratin. This means every single lamp used in indoor reptile keeping, especially tortoises are literally baking off the water needed for intracellular function of both beta and alpha keratin. I have described the effects of 'unfiltered' IR-A and grounded that idea. (Pg 7) EVCO page. So we know that these lamps are super super awesome dehydrators. Yet.. Many do not realize the effect these lamps are having on our tortoises biologically..

Did you know alpha keratin gives rise to beta keratin in tortoises? It is a precursor to making beta keratin pleated sheets. Essentially the alpha keratin is formed using single helixes bond together, then is transformed into dead pleated helixes bound together in sheets (beta keratin). That means alpha keratin is performing functions within those cells that eventually turn into the beta keratin sheets. I read this was referred to as intracellular hydraulics, which is responsible for the nutrient distribution to the cells for living and function.. This hydraulic system is EXTREMELY sensitive to water. If you decrease the hydrogen bonds through out the amino acids of the protein you are decreasing hydraulic function of the cells.

BUT... the tortoise has a solution to counter this menacing attack on its beta and alpha keratin from artificial lamps. Its called proliferation.. As poor hydration/humidity/ and lack of microclimate takes its toll on the beta and alpha keratin proteins... The dehydration of hydrogen between these bonds makes the alpha and beta keratin kick into protection mode.. The only thing it can do is make more beta keratin to try and stop the dehydration of its intracelluar hydraulic system. That means creating massive beta keratin sheets... which are humidiity sensitive.. this extra proliferation has bad effects on the underlying bone.. The mechanical stress is multiplied for every turned alpha keratin protein into beta keratin protein as to try and counteract poor hydrated enviroments.. If you look at the shape of a scute you will notice its shaped in a way that if dried would resemble a bowl. Think of that for a minute..

A scute that when dries curls up as the amino acids loose all its water bonds. This curling is exerrting mechanical stress on the bone below... Now if you have a poor diet in combination with poor hydration this effect is going to multiplied SEVERELY, the scute will start to want to curl... and will easily deform the growing bone... If you feed a correct diet but offer very poor hydration it may still not be enough to stop the mechanical stress from the extra proliferation of beta keratin sheets... From what i have read ... Many breeders tried so hard to put strict diet standards on there tortoise to no avail and then someone puts the humdiity up on accident and boom smooth tortoise shell. Its clear why.. Combine high humidity with proper diet and you clearly get very nice growing , healthy , tortoises.

Here is a x-ray of my female Russian tortoise. Despite extreme growth of 5.4 oz and 1.2 inches long/wide in about 6 months in my care. She's a tad chunky but according to the vet one of the best x-rays they have seen from an indoor raised tort. Even if it is just 6 months. My humidity averages at about 20 to 30% even though I daily spray at lest 2x a day maintaining above 50% in my open table top but only for a short time.





Think why you need such humid, hydrated habitats... Think why its recommended for many torts high heat, high humidity, which have shown excellent results. You are in a battle with artificial lamps 24/7! The moment that lamp turns on the moment alpha and beta keratin proteins are effected and change in there biology as a result..

We can even talk about the skin now... The skin is made of alpha keratin.. with some beta keratin as well.. Along with deeper tissues and blood vessles... These tissues also have intracelluar hydraulic properties that are also effected by artificial lmaps... Now think of a tortoise exposed to very dry , little water, little humidiity, but synthesis of pre D3 occurs in the skin.. But yet... that is all processed by intracelluar hydraulic movements which is being severely effected by a lack of bonds between the keratins and tissues. So now we have a lamp that is effecting pretty much every single part of a tortoise.. Not one part is not effected by drhydration of the bonds between these proteins.

Now we can combine this all together. So now we have alpha keratin in the skin which is responsible for synthesis of d3 (among others) tissues and blood vessels suppressed by lack of hydrogen bonds between the helixes of the alpha bonds which effectively slows and inhibits the synthesis process of crucial bone development .. is this factor in MBD? Where spongy bone is prevalent because the skin is so dehydrated by artificial lamps that it almost shuts down the process of creating critical synthesis of micronutrients so the body must now substitute by drawing from its own resources?

Pretty much everything on a tortoise runs on intracelluar hydraulics because the entire tortoise is covered in beta and alpha keratin .. under every scute is a layer of alpha keratin which is responsible for intracelluar transmission of nutrients and elective current, If you suppress this function you in for a world of hurt. Do you notice the crazy growth lines my female Russian has? Since applying coconut oil on her shell for the last 6 months , has made the alpha keratin explode in growth because the lactic acid coconut oil decomposes and eats beta keratin. Which I described is what is responsible for the mechanical pressure exerted on the underlying bone . If you keep the keratin pliable and in equalibrium , like in enclosed Chambers it very much helps the issue of pyramiding but it does not take the issue of lamps creating enough mechanical stress on the alpha keratin away because of its "unfiltered" nature .

 

[glitch4200]

I've read an article about it some time ago. If you are interested I can look up the title, but I'm afraid it was in German.
It said that when breathing dry air, tortoises loose moisture from their lungs. To keep them moist they take water from less important tissue near the lungs, for example from the connective tissue under the shell, so the tissue sinks in. If it stays like this for a longer time and the tortoise is growing, the new keratin is build up on this deeper level.
Once the Keratin is formed it's difficult to smoothe out. Like a human fingernail can be bended, but always goes back to it's former shape.

I don't know if this is really the main cause for pyramiding (and the article was a few years old, maybe there are already newer information about it) but it makes sense to me.


I guess because of different behaviour. My two Hermanns live in the same enclosure, but one of them is rather shy, prefers to hide at moist places and digs in at night, the other one is bolder, spends a lot of time in the direct sun and never digs in. The first one has a smoother shell.

Now this fits my theory perfectly.. if it's too dry.. now the lungs need moisture to keep its intracellular hydraulics system going ... I mean it's responsible for oxygen transfer which is a hydraulics system too.. soo now you have a trifecta of issues going on here in low humid environments and unfiltered artifical lamps. You have suppressed skin synthesis , suppressed lung function, biologically changing alpha an beta keratin, poor thermal regulation (from decreased intracellular hydraulics), increased mechanical stress on bone .. the list is endless..

And of course the one exposed to the most "unfiltered" IR would be the most pyramided. Different personalities and habits .. one likes nice moist substrate one spends time under the lamp. Obviously the one under the lamp will pyramid or "want" to start pyramiding because of that extra beta keratin production .

 

[Tom]

Great posts and discussion.

Now what is the practical solution to providing a warm basking spot for an indoor tortoise without the drying effects of extreme IR-A from incandescent bulbs? What to we tell the everyday Joe to do to set up a proper enclosure with the correct thermal gradients?

I've got an experiment under way already on this. Just haven't found the time to post it yet. I'm raising a group of sulcata hatchlings with no incandescent bulbs of any kind. I'm using overhead radiant heat panels to maintain ambient and a gradient during the day. The panels are high enough above the tortoises that any desiccating effects should be minimal.

How does that plan fit in with your theory, glitch?

 

[WithLisa]

@glitch4200 I still don't get what you mean by "unfiltered" IR. What's the difference between filtered and unfiltered IR with the same wave length?
Lamps are desiccating because they only warm up a small spot of the closed chamber (or even the room if it's an open table), so you always have a dry air flow.

 

[glitch4200]

Great posts and discussion.

Now what is the practical solution to providing a warm basking spot for an indoor tortoise without the drying effects of extreme IR-A from incandescent bulbs? What to we tell the everyday Joe to do to set up a proper enclosure with the correct thermal gradients?

I've got an experiment under way already on this. Just haven't found the time to post it yet. I'm raising a group of sulcata hatchlings with no incandescent bulbs of any kind. I'm using overhead radiant heat panels to maintain ambient and a gradient during the day. The panels are high enough above the tortoises that any desiccating effects should be minimal.

How does that plan fit in with your theory, glitch?

I have thought about radiant heat panels. I have a couple concerns with it. And I hope you very much prove me wrong with your experiment.

Unless you have water filtered radiant panels, your panels are still emitting "unfiltered" IR. And not only that.. They are emitting long wave infrared which means it has very poor penetration in tissue. (wFIR) = water filtered infrared radiation, which is used by the medical community to replenish and repair intracellular function by replacing and hydrating the skin, also it allows deep core heating instead of superficial heating.

Radiating panels are still producing the effects but minimized but you sacrifice something here, you may decrease water loss, but now you have a problem with super heating the top tissues because it doesn't have the power to penetrate deep into tissues. Technically if this would be an issue, you will see pyramiding with radiated heat panels. Because the tortoise would desperately trying to reach core temps needed but would fall short because the rays used don't have the power to reach the deep tissues like the sun does. It may slow down the loss of water in the bonds of the alpha and beta keratin bonds but it's not eliminated. But still it could work possibly with the right combination. For now I guess we tell the average keeper to use multiple lamps at a higher distance to create a big basking zone while decreasing localized heating. Use halogen bulbs because they provide better seeing light. But until someone creates a filter for reptile keepers like the hydro sun light I put in the link, there is not much to be done.. Except increasing distance or something like I am trying with the coconut oil. But again it's not a solution. The water filtered heat bulb for tortoises would be.

Here is a gadget that would be the solution to our reptile and tortoise problem.. A filter put into a bulb that effectively takes away the dehydrating capabilites of "unfiltered' lamps. It explains it in the website.

http://www.hydrosun.de/en/

My next question for you Tom is now that your using strictly infrared heat to heat your tortoise your absence of the rest of the visible spectrum must be substituted.. So what are you substituting for the visible part of the spectrum so your tortoise can 'see'. You can't just use a UV tube because it doesn't have "full spectrum" irradience. So what is being substituted for this 'seeing' light?

 

[glitch4200]

@glitch4200 I still don't get what you mean by "unfiltered" IR. What's the difference between filtered and unfiltered IR with the same wave length?
Lamps are desiccating because they only warm up a small spot of the closed chamber (or even the room if it's an open table), so you always have a dry air flow.

The sun is filtered because it passes thru our atmosphere. The atmosphere is water laden. The water absorbs the infrared but not all of is is absorbed.. What passes thru is considered water filtered infrared radiation. What we feel from the sun is water filtered. And allows it to not take water molecules from our body. ..

Artifical lamps are not filtered because of the absence of any water atmosphere between the lamp and the tortoise. The only water they get exposed to is humidity between bulb and tortoise.

So any emitted light from a bulb in the infrared side of the spectrum (all of them pretty much) and does not pass thru water and since IR-A is water hungry it will take the first water it comes into contact with to satisfy it's need for hydrogen.

The first water that the 'unfiltered' rays come into contact with is the water in the tortoises shell and skin. Alpha and beta keratin.. As well as the surrounding environment. Hence closed Chambers keeps humidity high to help filtered the lamps above the tortoise. But there is not nearly enough water to 'filtered' all the infrared light from these high powered lamps.

Go to my coconut oil page and read page 7.. I explain it pretty well there too. Sorry am at work lol