Closed "Chambers"

[Tom]

My next question for you Tom is now that your using strictly infrared heat to heat your tortoise your absence of the rest of the visible spectrum must be substituted.. So what are you substituting for the visible part of the spectrum so your tortoise can 'see'. You can't just use a UV tube because it doesn't have "full spectrum" irradience. So what is being substituted for this 'seeing' light?

I intended to get more into the specifics of this new experiment when I started my other thread, but this is a great discussion and I think talking about it here is warranted.

First I think explaining the "why" will help the "how" to be more understandable. It is my supposition, based on conversations about the wild and captive observations over many years, that newly hatched sulcatas do not bask and don't experience much of a thermal gradient in the niche they occupy. It is my totally unproven, but educated, guess that they dig out of their nests, run for cover under thick brush, and stay there. I can't even begin to guess what the temperature under their bushes is, but because its the rainy season, I know the humidity is very high under there. If ambient temps are 100-110 with the sun beating down on the top of their underbrush, its got to be at least in the 80's under 2 or 3 feet of heavy brush, right? So, I'm guessing on the temperatures, but my intention is to have hot temps during every day, warm temps all night, 80%ish humidity all the time and a 12 hour day/night light cycle.

My closed chamber enclosure is about 22" tall inside and the RHPs are mounted to the ceiling. I doubt the tortoises can perceive any heat from them at ground level. I'm using them to maintain my day and night ambients and they are the sole het sources. Enclosure is about 6 feet long and 3 feet deep.

Now to answer your question and explain the heating and lighting: Its a jumbled mess of confusing wires, timers and thermostats but it makes sense when explained item by item. Well... it makes sense to me...
1. I have two 12x12" 40 watt RHPs on the two ends of the enclosure set on one thermostat to maintain 80ish, day and night.
2. I have a timer set for about 12 hours a day for a 48" 5000K florescent tube. Roughly 7am to 7pm.
3. Set on the above light timer's circuit is another thermostat set to 90 degrees and hooked up to an 80 watt 12x21" RHP mounted over the middle of the enclosure. So for 12 hours a day, the light is on and the enclosure slowly heats to 90ish, as if the sun were beating down on their underbrush and warming it all up. I have a basking rock under this RHP and light, but they don't use it.
4. Finally, I have an Arcadia 12% HO bulb mounted in the middle of the ceiling and it turns on for about 4-5 hours a day, mid day.


So the "sun" comes up around 7am, it gets really bright and warm mid day with higher UV, and then the sun sets and things begin to cool around 7pm. The 6 hatchlings have been in there for over a month and they are growing and thriving so far. No issues of any kind to report, and their carapaces are super smooth. Babies also get soaked daily and taken out to a large tub for some real sunshine for about an hour 3-4 times a week, weather permitting.

 

[glitch4200]

I intended to get more into the specifics of this new experiment when I started my other thread, but this is a great discussion and I think talking about it here is warranted.

First I think explaining the "why" will help the "how" to be more understandable. It is my supposition, based on conversations about the wild and captive observations over many years, that newly hatched sulcatas do not bask and don't experience much of a thermal gradient in the niche they occupy. It is my totally unproven, but educated, guess that they dig out of their nests, run for cover under thick brush, and stay there. I can't even begin to guess what the temperature under their bushes is, but because its the rainy season, I know the humidity is very high under there. If ambient temps are 100-110 with the sun beating down on the top of their underbrush, its got to be at least in the 80's under 2 or 3 feet of heavy brush, right? So, I'm guessing on the temperatures, but my intention is to have hot temps during every day, warm temps all night, 80%ish humidity all the time and a 12 hour day/night light cycle.

My closed chamber enclosure is about 22" tall inside and the RHPs are mounted to the ceiling. I doubt the tortoises can perceive any heat from them at ground level. I'm using them to maintain my day and night ambients and they are the sole het sources. Enclosure is about 6 feet long and 3 feet deep.

Now to answer your question and explain the heating and lighting: Its a jumbled mess of confusing wires, timers and thermostats but it makes sense when explained item by item. Well... it makes sense to me...
1. I have two 12x12" 40 watt RHPs on the two ends of the enclosure set on one thermostat to maintain 80ish, day and night.
2. I have a timer set for about 12 hours a day for a 48" 5000K florescent tube. Roughly 7am to 7pm.
3. Set on the above light timer's circuit is another thermostat set to 90 degrees and hooked up to an 80 watt 12x21" RHP mounted over the middle of the enclosure. So for 12 hours a day, the light is on and the enclosure slowly heats to 90ish, as if the sun were beating down on their underbrush and warming it all up. I have a basking rock under this RHP and light, but they don't use it.
4. Finally, I have an Arcadia 12% HO bulb mounted in the middle of the ceiling and it turns on for about 4-5 hours a day, mid day.


So the "sun" comes up around 7am, it gets really bright and warm mid day with higher UV, and then the sun sets and things begin to cool around 7pm. The 6 hatchlings have been in there for over a month and they are growing and thriving so far. No issues of any kind to report, and their carapaces are super smooth. Babies also get soaked daily and taken out to a large tub for some real sunshine for about an hour 3-4 times a week, weather permitting.

I say that is an excellent educated guess. I would guess (although I lack the observational experience you do and keeping time) maybe even higher. Upper 80s low 90s for ambient heat in the brush atleast. I mean it is not one to be just chilling in the open, not at the top of the food chain.. You focus on bigger species, my focus is on Russian tortoises. Although different environments their are many similar needs when we begin to talk about proper lighting set ups between the species, temps are easy to adjust once you get the right light and infrared combo. I am extremely interested in this.

This lighting set up could be the ideal way to house tortoises indoors in the future, unless I find a way to "filter" infrared from artificial lamps. I am determined.

So you can even generalize that for the average keeper. Instead of buying 100s of dollars in bulbs every year. Spend that money into a well built radiant heat panels and a very nice full spectrum lamp with added UVb. Have them build a closed chamber or open table top with a roof, that is semi enclosed at least.

Place the panels exactly like you did.. I also very much agree that tortoises really don't have much of a temp gradient in the wild . The sun doesn't pick and chose warm and cold spots. You either have shade from brush or you dig a hole to provide shade. Why I have my entire habitat so warm and many places to hide.

I really like that combo though. Your set up makes absolute perfect sense to me.

1x 48 inch full spectrum 5000k tube to provide very good visible light out put so the tortoises can 'see' well.

1x Arcadia 12% HO for UVb and UVa. Hung down at about 20 inches?

And 3 radiant heat panels that heats a tad under 4sq ft of space in a 9 Sqft habitat. So technically the basking "zone" is around 4 Sqft on these panels instead of a measly 8x8 tile from a regular incandescent bulb. (I measured haphazardly, I work at a tile store lol)

Those panels could possibly stop localized heating as bad as the lamps used now provided your tortoises are able to reach proper internal temps. Localized heating of the alpha and beta keratin is responsible for the rapid dehydration I was talking about in the intracellular hydraulics system. The more water is taken from the alpha and beta keratin the more the biology is changed in the proteins, as decreased hydraulics in the cells hinder nutrient transfer which ultimately leads to deficiency.

Localized heating. Severe uneven infrared distribution. And I have distance and multiple lamps to spread out heat and I still saw this still with my camera. Taken 13 minutes after exposed to lamps.



You can see the little red spots. Those little red spots are super heated tissues. And do not occur in nature. As the sun does not produce this effect with its water filtered rays. They actually happen to occur mostly in the alpha keratin lines through out the shell, which makes perfect sense since the helixes that make up the alpha keratin are extremely water sensitive because of its open hydrogen bonds. Which can readily be taken by water hungry IRa. And are...

My curiosity is taking thermal images of the habitat to really see how the heat is being distributed and if the panels are creating basking zones of roughly 4sqft or not. And then I want to see how the shell reacts to 'unfiltered' long wave infrared it's being exposed to. If you had water radiant heat panels technically you would be able to put them really close.. Because no alpha and beta keratin would be superheated because the water hungry infrared has already been filtered. Thus making the panels deep core heating panels which would be magnificent.. And the best idea ever.

 

[Tom]

I say that is an excellent educated guess. I would guess (although I lack the observational experience you do and keeping time) maybe even higher. Upper 80s low 90s for ambient heat in the brush atleast. I mean it is not one to be just chilling in the open, not at the top of the food chain.. You focus on bigger species, my focus is on Russian tortoises. Although different environments their are many similar needs when we begin to talk about proper lighting set ups between the species, temps are easy to adjust once you get the right light and infrared combo. I am extremely interested in this.

The reason why I am leaning to the low side is because one of the TTPG presenters talked about a trip searching for Coura species in the Vietnamese jungle. With an ambient temp of 95 and "humidity so oppressive that it was hard to breathe..." at human head height, he found temps in the low 70's in the underbrush where the turtles were and as low as 65 in some densely over grown hollows. Now, of course, that is under the cover of a full rainforest canopy, where the sulcata babies are in an overgrown but open Savannah...

I really wish someone over there would just go stick a thermometer in the bushes and report back!

If you find yourself in Los Angeles with your Flir technology, you are welcome to come photograph any of my tortoises in all the various enclosures. The more we all learn about all this the better.

I've not heard of this water filtered heat. What is your source for this info? Where can we go to learn more about it besides the typical internet searching?

 

[glitch4200]

The reason why I am leaning to the low side is because one of the TTPG presenters talked about a trip searching for Coura species in the Vietnamese jungle. With an ambient temp of 95 and "humidity so oppressive that it was hard to breathe..." at human head height, he found temps in the low 70's in the underbrush where the turtles were and as low as 65 in some densely over grown hollows. Now, of course, that is under the cover of a full rainforest canopy, where the sulcata babies are in an overgrown but open Savannah...

I really wish someone over there would just go stick a thermometer in the bushes and report back!

If you find yourself in Los Angeles with your Flir technology, you are welcome to come photograph any of my tortoises in all the various enclosures. The more we all learn about all this the better.

I've not heard of this water filtered heat. What is your source for this info? Where can we go to learn more about it besides the typical internet searching?

Thank you Tom. If I am ever out there I'll be sure to ask to stop by, I always want to learn. I appreciate the opportunity. The first place I found out about "unfiltered" IRa was actually a thread here on this forum by Francis Baines from UV guide UK. Here. He points out there is very little research done about 'unfiltered' IR. This is not a wide known issue yet.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/84606/

He explains this idea very nicely. But then Andy Highfield wrote an article on it too on the tortoise trust website, summarizing Francis Baines idea and showing how dehydrating these lamps actually were with some experiments. Page 7 of my coconut oil thread is taken from this article with Francis Baines idea in mind too..

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html

Kinda crazy how dehydrating these lamps really are and he shows that by presenting the graphs of relative humidity before, during and after lamps are turned on and off. Immediately you see huge dips in the graph because water is most instantly taken from the environment as the infrared quickly robes the air of that moisture.

The coconut oil idea was actually an accident, after I had read about 'unfiltered' IR on the infrared vs sunlight thread, I thought I wonder if this oil could help. I did some cleaning that day and saw the coconut oil and remembered that people used it to help moisturize and block the sun. So I decided to do some more research on it.. At which point I started my thead and my more in depth research on this.

I quickly realized there was basically no information on "unfiltered" infrared except the medical community. As humans are not constantly exposed to the lamps so no one really ever needed a research the idea about dehydrating the skin/body in humans. We have the sun.

Artificial lamps were never engineered for housing reptiles. They were converted into a way to keep reptiles.. But this issue has remained largely ignored it seems, as most breeders and keepers I talk to this issue with says the exact same thing to me, "what the hell are you talking about 'unfiltered' IR."

It's like no one knows. But yet it is a huge massive variable in reptile care and has been quite looked over and ignored. I hope this changes now. Because the dehydrating capabilitiss of these lamps are what is causing pyramiding from localized heating. Poor diet, poor hydration and lack of exercise just speeds up the process of pyramiding.. But the decrease in intracellular hydration in alpha and beta keratin promotes the increase of proliferation (as a counter measure) to try and stop bonds from breaking and becoming unstable from the unrelenting "unfiltered" water hungry infrared. Take away mechanical stress of beta keratin while increasing intracellular hydraulics of alpha keratin should theoretically create a healthier tortoise all around. (theory).

 

[Tom]

Thank you Tom. If I am ever out there I'll be sure to ask to stop by, I always want to learn. I appreciate the opportunity. The first place I found out about "unfiltered" IRa was actually a thread here on this forum by Francis Baines from UV guide UK. Here. He points out there is very little research done about 'unfiltered' IR. This is not a wide known issue yet.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/84606/

He explains this idea very nicely. But then Andy Highfield wrote an article on it too on the tortoise trust website, summarizing Francis Baines idea and showing how dehydrating these lamps actually were with some experiments. Page 7 of my coconut oil thread is taken from this article with Francis Baines idea in mind too..

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/baskinghealth.html

Kinda crazy how dehydrating these lamps really are and he shows that by presenting the graphs of relative humidity before, during and after lamps are turned on and off. Immediately you see huge dips in the graph because water is most instantly taken from the environment as the infrared quickly robes the air of that moisture.

The coconut oil idea was actually an accident, after I had read about 'unfiltered' IR on the infrared vs sunlight thread, I thought I wonder if this oil could help. I did some cleaning that day and saw the coconut oil and remembered that people used it to help moisturize and block the sun. So I decided to do some more research on it.. At which point I started my thead and my more in depth research on this.

I quickly realized there was basically no information on "unfiltered" infrared except the medical community. As humans are not constantly exposed to the lamps so no one really ever needed a research the idea about dehydrating the skin/body in humans. We have the sun.

Artificial lamps were never engineered for housing reptiles. They were converted into a way to keep reptiles.. But this issue has remained largely ignored it seems, as most breeders and keepers I talk to this issue with says the exact same thing to me, "what the hell are you talking about 'unfiltered' IR."

It's like no one knows. But yet it is a huge massive variable in reptile care and has been quite looked over and ignored. I hope this changes now. Because the dehydrating capabilitiss of these lamps are what is causing pyramiding from localized heating. Poor diet, poor hydration and lack of exercise just speeds up the process of pyramiding.. But the decrease in intracellular hydration in alpha and beta keratin promotes the increase of proliferation (as a counter measure) to try and stop bonds from breaking and becoming unstable from the unrelenting "unfiltered" water hungry infrared. Take away mechanical stress of beta keratin while increasing intracellular hydraulics of alpha keratin should theoretically create a healthier tortoise all around. (theory).

Thanks for the info. For some reason I was under the impression that Frances is a lady. One of us is going to suffer some embarrassment...

I look forward to the day when we have a practical solution that we can recommend for this issue. Please let the forum know if you find something.

 

[Yvonne G]

Thanks for the info. For some reason I was under the impression that Frances is a lady. One of us is going to suffer some embarrassment...

I look forward to the day when we have a practical solution that we can recommend for this issue. Please let the forum know if you find something.

Well, I'm pretty sure "es" is the female spelling and "is" is male.

 

[Tom]

Well, I'm pretty sure "es" is the female spelling and "is" is male.

So is it Frances or Francis, that we are talking about?

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I'm enjoying following this discussion!

If I ever raise babies again, I'll be trying to find an outside "lamp free" way to do it. The Frances thread is where I first learned of IRA too. It is what pushed me to move mine out sooner than later.
(Btw, I was also under the impression "lilac dragon" is a woman )

 

[Yvonne G]

If you do a Google search the results show the 'es' spelling, so I would assume Frances is female.

"
Reptile Lighting Information
BY FRANCES M. BAINES, M.A., VETMB, MRCVS

To reptiles, sunlight is life. Reptiles are quite literally solar powered; every aspect of their lives is governed by their daily experience of solar light and heat, or the artificial equivalent when they are housed indoors. Careful provision of lighting is essential for a healthy reptile in captivity......."

 

[jaizei]

I don't know why it matters but Frances Baines is female.

 

[Tom]

I don't know why it matters but Frances Baines is female.

In a discussion about your life's work, would you want people referring to you by the wrong gender? I wouldn't. It would not be the end of the world or anything, but its just a little awkward.

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't know why it matters but Frances Baines is female.

Hey...inquiring minds HAVE to know!!!

 

[jaizei]

For me, I would be more concerned that my work was being accurately represented than the pronouns used.

For those that haven't followed her for years
http://chamworld.blogspot.com/2009/10/dr.html?m=1

 

[glitch4200]

Shaun fail. I swear I read he. That's what happens when you smoke too much ganja.. You mix it up.
*lowers head in embarrassment*

 

[glitch4200]

Thanks for the info. For some reason I was under the impression that Frances is a lady. One of us is going to suffer some embarrassment...

I look forward to the day when we have a practical solution that we can recommend for this issue. Please let the forum know if you find something.

I found those heat panels. And control switches and thermostats, it going to be my next project. I really really like the concept. And when I do it I'll have my handy dandy infrared temp gun to see how it heats it all up.

 

[Sheldon's pappy]

Been meaning to do this one for a while now...

Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around alone in the dark. Now, with the help of all the fantastic TFO members, I can see and experience everyone else's enclosures and styles too.

There are a lot of good ways to house a tortoise indoors. Tank, tub, trough, table, and... closed chamber. Different methods work best for the various species and ages. Through all of my "experiments" and sharing the vast experience of others here on the forum, I have reached my current conclusion that "closed chambers", with a basking lamp inside, are the best means of housing the babies of most species. Everyone's situation is different, and we all live in different climates... heck our torts are all from different climates too. Still, overall, I have personally experienced the best results and seen the best results from others, in this style of enclosure. Several people come to mind, but Tyler, Neal, Kristina and KBaker, have especially shown their enclosures and the results. There are lots of others too, but these members have had the biggest influence on me recently.

Only in a closed chamber can I control the humidity properly. Its very dry where I live, and its a constant battle to maintain any humidity at all in most enclosures. In a closed chamber, its a piece of cake. I've used glass tanks and various styles of tortoise tables for years to house my chelonians, but the open tops let out all that beneficial humidity and heat. By putting my heat lamps and CHEs INSIDE the closed enclosure, they do NOT dry things out AND they use a lot less power to give me the same amount of heat. Plus, once they heat everything up and the thermostat kicks them off, the heat just stays in there. I'm using less electricity on my 4x8' closed chamber than I am on my 40 gallon open topped glass tank! (I have little electric meters called "Kill-A-Watt EZ"). The humidity is lower directly under the heat lamp, but its as high as I want to keep it all around that area and the rest of the enclosure.

In theory this all sounds reasonable, but what happens in the real world? I've gotten the best results I've ever gotten in this type of enclosure. On a lot of my glass tanks I end up covering as much of the top as I can. It seems like the more and better I cover them, the better the results I get. But I still lose all my heat and humidity out of the hole that has to be there for my light fixtures. Like this one:

This leads me to a big problem that has come up recently with several potential new tortoise keepers. Where does one go buy a "closed tortoise chamber" for their new pet? Most conventional enclosures are too shallow to have a closed top and still allow enough room for a hanging fixture with a hot bulb in it. I like the Vision tubs, but they are too short for this purpose. My leopard enclosure is 24" tall and that just barely accommodates things safely. When I build the next one it will be around 30" tall. I have not seen a pre-made enclosure with the right dimensions. Tyler showed me this one that he is using. I can't remember which species he is housing in this.

Remember we are talking about housing babies. Not adults or even juveniles. Discussion is welcome here. I'm always wanting to learn more.

Hi, I'm Chris. I have a 3 month old sulcata named Sheldon. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. Can I get a blueprint for this kind of closed chamber? And what are CHE's? And lastly, what is the substrate you are using in these pictures? I'm using a cypress mulch floor right now.

 

[Tom]

I custom build each enclosure by hand. No blue prints here.

Ceramic Heating Element. All heat, no light.

I use orchid bark primarily for sulcatas, leopards and stars.

 

[Sheldon's pappy]

Gotcha on all three. Thanks

 

[Alaskamike]

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread. One of the best discussions I've seen on raising babies and closed chambers - as well as the desiccating effects of artificial UV.

With so many people raising torts today and the ability to quickly share real time information and results the hobby is just getting better and better for our charges.

Though I'm not raising babies now , if I were , a set up like Toms would be a top priority. I have been thinking about how to mitigate the drying effects of unfiltered (by atmosphere moisture) lamp UV. Even in closed systems.
I wonder if a plexiglass tray of water , under the lamp, would substitute for the filtration of atmosphere ? Or would the plexiglass just reduce the UV to the point of no use. I don't know enough about it to know.

What do you think ?

 

[glitch4200]

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread. One of the best discussions I've seen on raising babies and closed chambers - as well as the desiccating effects of artificial UV.

With so many people raising torts today and the ability to quickly share real time information and results the hobby is just getting better and better for our charges.

Though I'm not raising babies now , if I were , a set up like Toms would be a top priority. I have been thinking about how to mitigate the drying effects of unfiltered (by atmosphere moisture) lamp UV. Even in closed systems.
I wonder if a plexiglass tray of water , under the lamp, would substitute for the filtration of atmosphere ? Or would the plexiglass just reduce the UV to the point of no use. I don't know enough about it to know.

What do you think ?

Oh man me and my buddy invention is going to revolutionize tortoise keeping. We have effectively figured out how to filtered infrared light. We have and are in the process of prototyping our gadget, we have got a water filtered filter that ia cost effective and works very well thru preliminary trials so far. No longer will we need to worry about this unfiltered infrared... No longer will we need crazy humid environments to supplement the loss of water by artificial lamps.

The best part is our provisional patent paper work is already filled out. We have 12 months to finalize our invention to receive a legit patent number.

We will have a kick start campaign as well.

The filter and hardware it's attached too will be able to control, airflow, temp, humidity, audio, and video.

It's capable of of 720 HD video, HD audio, 3d core graphics card, high end processor. WiFi ready. Each unit will be able to control 4 lamps per habitat. Which independent controls each temp, humidity, airflow etc. The best thing of all this is that this unit will be able to be controled by a smartphone or computer. Remote access to all things control. And the best thing is.. I am not lying..