OK...that was a great post Tom....thank you. I can understand where you are coming from, and do appreciate your point of view, and your opinion.
ChiKat said:I have no doubt in my mind that the trainers love these animals- that's not the issue here, and I don't think anyone is trying to imply that.
They care for them as best as they possibly can in captivity...which is not ultimately what is best for them. The ocean is their natural habitat and it's where they belong.
In the Wild...
• Orcas live in large, closely-knit, highly complex social groups typically numbering 5 - 25 members.
• Members are related by blood and remain together for life.
• The pod may travel as many as 160 km (100 miles) in a day, in a home range of maybe 800 - 1,500 km (500-900 miles).
• They forage for live prey and socialise, rest and play as a cohesive group.
• Free will and freedom of movement characterise their existence.
• They are supremely adapted over centuries to cope with the rigours of life in the wild.
In Captivity:
• From the moment an orca is taken into captivity, this free will and freedom of movement is virtually obliterated. From this moment onwards, humans will mastermind the captive orca’s life.
• Home is a bare and largely featureless concrete tank, minuscule compared to their natural ocean habitat.
• Artificially salinated and chlorinated water usually replace natural seawater.
• Captives must learn to accept dead fish.
• Blood-bonds are replaced by forced associations, with orcas from different pods and different oceans being routinely mixed and matched.
• Calves are routinely moved from their mother at a very tender age.
• In 1999, at least four facilities keep a solitary orca, and Keiko is solitary in Iceland
• Natural daily routines and social interactions are replaced by forced and highly artificial show routines.
• Above all, the orca's quality of life is severely compromised.
From this (rather lengthy!) article: http://www.wdcs.org/submissions_bin/orcareport.pdf
A great read if you can find the time!
Candy said:Sorry I posted the above and it didn't come through so I re-posted it and it came through.
BethyB1022 said:I think there have been some good points raised on both sides on this issue.
Chad- I really appreciated your comments.
The first time I saw orcas in the wild it was such a humbling experience. I remember thinking that the whales looked so tiny. At first I thought they were all babies. Then I realized that I was used to seeing them in tanks. I wanted to share some photos of a pod of orcas that I saw around Seward, Alaska. I took them from a boat so they are not the best. Obviously the whales did not know they were supposed to pose for pictures!
Candy said:Sorry I posted the above and it didn't come through so I re-posted it and it came through.
jdawn said:Candy: Thank you for your post and your references~ It is compelling and well presented.
Bethany: Fabulous photos!
Tom said:Candy said:Well Tom it seems that your emotions are actually getting the best of you on this thread.
That's just ridiculous. This has nothing to do with emotions, except yours which are the basis for all of your points. As for your citations, someone earning a PHD does not make them all knowing and unbiased. For an example of incompetent advice from a doctor, look at some of the veterinary advice given for tortoises. Most vets are still telling people that torts pyramid due to excess protein in the diet.
I bring up the trainers and my friends because they work with these animals ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. Don't you think they know more than someone who read a book or went to college? They know these animals better than they know their own families sometimes. They sleep poolside whenever there is a problem or imminent birth.
What I'm saying is that through my experiences and friends, I know more about these animals than the average person, but I don't know enough about what it takes to make them "happy" or meet their needs to be making the judgement calls and blanket assertions that you are making. You know even less than me.
And with all due respect to TerryO, all of our torts have huge natural ranges in the wild. You think your 12" tort has enough room in your back yard? He'd be cramped in a 10 acre pen compared to the wild. I don't see where the disconnect is between YOUR captive wild animals and Sea World's captive wild animals is. If you say that some were wild caught, well so were some of yours and their parents. It is completely hypocritical to point the finger at Sea World for housing captive animals that you decided, based on unfounded emotion, shouldn't be captive, while you have an assortment of captive animals for your own entertainment in your own back yard! If you think the rank and file at Sea World and similar parks is in it for the money, then you are ridiculously ignorant. They get paid squat and have terrible benefits. This is a primary reason that I decided not to throw fish and blow a whistle for a living. I love the water. I love training. And I love cetaceans. But I didn't want to live a life of poverty, so I chose to work elsewhere. Those people do it out of passion and love for the animals. I think its terrible that you would take away their meager lively-hood, their reason for living, and a tremendous educational opportunity for the general public, because you have decided to have a hypocritical animal rightist slant.
Remember, the reason we are all here on this forum is because we all have captive wild animals in our own homes. There is no difference in your CDT or redfoots and my sulcatas and leopards and Sea World's Killer Whales. Same concept, same difference. You and me selfishly keep ours hidden away in our backyards while at least Sea World, the other parks and the zoos are taking terrific steps toward educating the public and conservation for these animals in the wild. There is a reason why captive animals are called "ambassadors" for their species.
Madkins007 said:The role of captive wild animals in our society is awkward. We have done it for about as far back as recorded history goes, and it has become increasingly controversial. We used to do it to show off our dominion over animals, our wealth, our hunting prowness, or other forms of ego and pride. Then, it became a business- what cool things can we show that will bring you and your money to us?
Mark you make some good points. But this isn't one of them. You speculate on the whole world's reasons for keeping captive animals and I disagree. Both now and then, I think it stems more from fascination, admiration and awe, than the factors you mentioned. I didn't want a turtle at 7 years old to bring in money or have dominion over anything. I wanted it because I though it was really cool and neat. I loved my turtle, cried when he got sick and adored my time in the yard with him watching him explore.
BethyB1022 said:I think there have been some good points raised on both sides on this issue.
Chad- I really appreciated your comments.
The first time I saw orcas in the wild it was such a humbling experience. I remember thinking that the whales looked so tiny. At first I thought they were all babies. Then I realized that I was used to seeing them in tanks. I wanted to share some photos of a pod of orcas that I saw around Seward, Alaska. I took them from a boat so they are not the best. Obviously the whales did not know they were supposed to pose for pictures!
ChiKat said:Kalina- brilliant post. You are very knowledgable and I learned a lot from your post.
Candy- what video did you watch?